Dissatisfied Customer

[bugdust]

I always hoped it wouldn't happen,  :'( but it did. Got a call last night from a customer saying he was not satisfied with his order. He had previously called asking me to saw his hemlock logs into 1/2" siding. First thing I suggested was he consider making the siding 3/4", or at least 5/8", but he had his mind set on the 1/2", so that's what he got. He delivered 6 hemlock logs, which 3 were poor grade to begin with. There was actually some nice siding sawed from the smaller logs, but the remaining were either half rotten or full of wind shake and carpenter ants. I had notice that a few pieces had began splitting as they came off the log, but I guess after drying a couple weeks more began splitting. After reminding him of condition of his logs, and that I had suggested sawing thicker siding, he calmed down and admitted it was his fault. This is a good reminder to look the customers logs over before committing to an order. Good news is he wants more siding sawed ...... here we go again. :-\ 

[Shotgun]

Do you use a signed contract form, or just a verbal agreement?  Where money is the bottom line, I would use a signed contract every time.

Norm

[bugdust]

The way I see it is a contract would not have made any difference. I sawed his logs to his specs, completely filling the order he asked for. Not my fault he brought me bad logs.

[Tom]

Whether they were good logs or bad logs might not have made any difference in the results.  What caused his dissatisfaction?

Sawing thin like that can exacerbate splitting, but some species will split regardless of what you do.  vertical grain is more prone to splitting than flat grain, but not as much prone to cupping.  Sometimes you can't win.  The best you can do is run your mill as accurately as possible and keep the mill aligned.  The results of the lumber (wood is a living thing you know) may be out of control of everyone.

Many customers don't realize that a lot of thin, commercially-available boards are sawed thicker and put through a sizer (planer) after drying.  Drying will cause many defects and much of the expense of the boards in the store may be because only 10% made it through the processing.  The retail customer doesn't see that.

[bugdust]

I am in total agreement. The customer was cautioned and explained what the end results might be. Seeing a product in a magazine, or even visualizing in your mind many times does not turn out to your best expectations. As sawyers we try to satisfy the customers, and in most cases hope for repeat business, or a least free advertisement. In this case the customer admitted his uneducated purchasing of logs and wants more siding sawed.

[Magicman]

Whether or not a contract would have made a difference, always signing one is a very good habit to establish.  That also covers damaged blades and injury liability.   Business is business.

Try to always look at the logs.  Sometimes ring shake or punk can be seen on the log ends and pointed out to the customer.  It's also always better for me if the customer is on site when the logs are sawed.  That way, if changes need to be made, or if "bad logs" are discovered, he is there to make decisions.

For me, if logs are marginal or it's ERC, hourly rates apply.

[SwampDonkey]

Hemlock around here is so full of defect, it's a tough go to begin with.  :-\

[redbeard]

I got a call from a customer that wanted paint grade 1/2" x 1 1/2"x 8' battens. I'am reluctent to do it just for that reason first of all they would be fresh cut and knots will fall out easily. So I will refer them to lumber yard and i can plane kiln dry wood down to 1/2" if need be. Sometimes its worth looking out for customers best interest. 

[Chuck White]

Somewhere, I read (quite a few years back) in a sawing contract the the sawyer is:
1. not responsible for rot or hollow spots in the log.
2. not responsible for wind shake in the log.
3. not responsible for splitting boards as they come off the cant.
4. not responsible for warping or twisting boards.
5. a board whether good or bad counts as a board sawed!

Sometimes when we get a picky customer, maybe some of these items should be included in our sawing contracts.

[jdtuttle]

Bugdust, Sounds like your communication skills resolved the issue. Especially if he wants you to saw more logs.  ;D
jim

[bugdust]

JD,
I've been known to have the gift for gab, but in this case the truth was evident. Even though it wasn't due to my sawing, I really felt bad for the guy. As a matter of fact I had to swallow hard or I would have buckled and offer part of this $s back. I've got a soft spot when it comes to other peoples problems. Guess it all turned out in the end. There have been some good comments, especially those pertaining to checking out the logs in the presence of the customer. Oh yea, you guys who commented on contracts, you're right of the mark.  Thanks

[woodmills1]

my first question to a new customer after they ask for something in lumber or cutting is.....what are you going to do with it?

have ended up redesigning many projects as well as just plain refusing to cut certain jobs

the most recent example was an order for siding for a rather large tree fort.  customer wanted to just put up some green pine horizontal

might work if you dry it and maybe shiplap or bevel the edges, he didn't want to do that

how about vertical.....nope


we settled on 3/4" 1x6 laid up like clapboards

I tried to explain how this would require more boards due to overlap

when he came to pick up the wood he says what do I owe you
$255     he says wait its 400 sq ft at 50 cents
so back to the overlap lesson :P

then I say   what are you doing at the ends of the horizontal runs

I DON'T KNOW

I point to the small stack of 1x3 I already edged out of the trims and planned on including them for the price

then explained how to use them


he says....thats why my neighbor said I should come to you :D :D :D

[maple flats]

I had a dissatisfied customer a few years ago. He had very marginal quality box alder to saw. It had lots of defects in the logs and when I finished he argued about the agreed upon price saying too many boards were rejects. He did not want to pay for the rejects. I explained that I still had to saw and the defects were not from sawing errors. I trimmed as possible but he still got some bad product. He was there tailing the job so he saw what I went thru to maximize the quality. We ended agreeing on a slightly lower price than first set. That was the last job I worked by the board foot. I now calculate the volume and give a total price with no stated yield. I just price the lot. No more problems. I also, now state that I will get the best I can but bad logs will yield bad lumber. I'll trim as needed but the slab piles becomes bigger and the lumber pile gets smaller as I do.

[paul case]

i used to bale hay for other folks. the worst part was people who didnt understand the agreement that we made before i baled their hay. they got pretty easy to pick out. they would come out after i was done and ask if i would do that on the shares. i tried to keep my answer simple.    NO.         pc

[Chuck White]

I had a dissatisfied customer a few years ago. He had very marginal quality box alder to saw. It had lots of defects in the logs and when I finished he argued about the agreed upon price saying too many boards were rejects. He did not want to pay for the rejects. I explained that I still had to saw and the defects were not from sawing errors. I trimmed as possible but he still got some bad product. He was there tailing the job so he saw what I went thru to maximize the quality. We ended agreeing on a slightly lower price than first set. That was the last job I worked by the board foot. I now calculate the volume and give a total price with no stated yield. I just price the lot. No more problems. I also, now state that I will get the best I can but bad logs will yield bad lumber. I'll trim as needed but the slab piles becomes bigger and the lumber pile gets smaller as I do.

This is one of the areas that I try explain to customers.
For the most part, I have one customer who hires me to saw Hemlock every year.  The order will range from 2,500 to 10,000 board feet.
when we come to some shakey stuff, the boards start going on the slab pile.
I told him that the next time I saw for him, the shakey boards will go on the tally along with the good boards.
Again, put it in the contract and make sure both you and the customer sign it!
Then, there's no argument.

[Jeff]

Somewhere, I read (quite a few years back) in a sawing contract the the sawyer is:
1. not responsible for rot or hollow spots in the log.
2. not responsible for wind shake in the log.
3. not responsible for splitting boards as they come off the cant.
4. not responsible for warping or twisting boards.
5. a board whether good or bad counts as a board sawed!

Sometimes when we get a picky customer, maybe some of these items should be included in our sawing contracts.

I see a very inherent problem with that list. For the type of customers that would present you with bad logs to saw to begin with, that reads like a different language. It might as well be Greek to many people.

[Chuck White]

 

[Jeff]

A customer that presents low quality logs expecting high quality lumber is obviously uneducated in the things that we find obvious. With that said, if they don't know a good log from a bad log then they won't know a good board from a bad board which makes number 5 irrelevant

That same customer will not understand or perhaps not even know what warping, twisting and "wind shake"  would be.  Throw out 4 and 2.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "not responsible for splitting boards as they come off the cant."  so throw out 3, because if I'm not clear on what that means, how can a customer that does not understand what makes a good log from a bad log.

I'll give them number one as Rot and holes should be understood even by someone not in the business you would think.

Those are the flaws with that list as I see it.

[Cedarman]

Jeff brings up good points.  When in business it is easy to get in the habit of speaking code.  We do it on the forum and don't even think about it until some newbie asks what we are talking about.
It is part of the job to explain our code words.
If a customer asks me for a price on a 2x4, I first ask what size 2x4 thus starting a discussion of sawmill size, store bought size and in between or even oversize.  Then we talk about planing in case the customer is expecting store bought smooth.

The idea that the sawblade does not care if it is rotten wood or $10.00 per board foot walnut and charges by what it cuts must be conveyed to the customer in simple but not condescending terms.

[Chuck White]

Ok Jeff, I know what your'e talking about now!
Thanks for explaining!

[Tim/South]

I am glad it worked out in the end.
I need to work up some kind of contract.

I have only had one dissatisfied customer. He he did not know how to figure board feet and thought I was ripping him off. He did finally learn that he was wrong and that I had given him a break rather than over charging.
It still left a bad taste in my mouth.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Somewhere, I read (quite a few years back) in a sawing contract the the sawyer is:
1. not responsible for rot or hollow spots in the log.
2. not responsible for wind shake in the log.
3. not responsible for splitting boards as they come off the cant.
4. not responsible for warping or twisting boards.
5. a board whether good or bad counts as a board sawed!

Sometimes when we get a picky customer, maybe some of these items should be included in our sawing contracts.

I put a line in "Sawyer is not responsible for any damage or loss to the wood or from use of the wood after it is sawn.     When I spot other issues in advance which worry me, and have talked to the customer about it, I will add in a line to cover these things too.  Thin wood would fall in this category.

[Kansas]

I know this totally goes against the conventional  (and collective) wisdom of this board, but I simply don't want contracts when I custom saw lumber, or take lumber orders, for that matter. A few deals will always go bad. Contracts gone bad involve lawyers, and lawyers cost money. Unless its a huge cutting order, the cost won't be worth it. And if its a huge cutting job, get paid in stages. Spell out everything up front. Be brutally honest about the quality of their logs. Tell them exactly what is going to happen, and how its going to happen, how they will be billed. The great majority of people are honest. Those few that are not won't be swayed by a signed contract. I don't know, maybe I haven't been burnt enough times. I could count on one hand all the deals that went bad the last 10 years.

I can't really explain my aversion to signed contracts. Maybe I trust too much.  But its been so rare that the trust has been broken.

[Magicman]

Spell out everything up front. Be brutally honest about the quality of their logs. Tell them exactly what is going to happen, and how its going to happen, how they will be billed

You are simply making a Verbal Contract.  They are just as binding as a written contract, but possibly more easily mis-understood, mis-interpreted, or mis-communicated.

My written contract serves as a checklist for me as well as the customer, so that all points are covered.  I have never had any part of it questioned, and very often receive favorable comments and thanks for having it.  We both agree; business is business.

I have never had a Dissatisfied Customer.

[Stan snider]

I'm with Kansas; I dislike written contracts thoroughly and if you ask for one here, the impression you give would be that you are trying to get leverage on someone. I have done a fair amount of custom farming and often do not meet the client until the job is done, if ever. I can only think of two times not being paid and two others who protested.                                                                                                           One was a bail bondsman who thought a few scoop shovels full of lime had been wasted [out of about a hundred ton]and he sent me a message he wasn't going to pay. I sent one back that that was O.K., and I would file a lein against it and my pay would come when the place needed title work, along with interest, as that sounded like a good investment to me.  I had never done this to anyone before or since but his attitude was too much. The check showed up pretty soon. :D