Expected Stump Price for Hemlock and White Pine in Huntingdon, PA 16652

[H60 Hawk Pilot]

Today, I am doing a walk through of stand of timber which is adjoining my property.

The timber for sale is nice size -- Hemlock and White Pine, perhaps a few Spruce. The average size (estimated) will be 24 inches at chest high, some 28" or a little bigger.

I was wondering what to offer $$ ____ ? for the timber standing ?  I will cut it and skid it to my property and saw it. The intended use is for a  Log Cabin that I'm going start building in August of 2010.

What is the best board feet scale to use of the three (that I know of)  for standing timber.

What can be agreed upon for timber that is rotted or bad in someway and not known untill it's sawed ?

Does the buyer always eat it when the tree(s) are bad ?

What Other Information can you add to be helpful to this post, to steer me clear of trouble and good choice's in this little enterprise.

I am aware that the timber will have to be kilm dried and I'm prepared to haul it locally for drying.

Avery

[Ron Wenrich]

Why not get someone to cruise the timber for you?  Doing a walk through is nice, and I can get a good estimate of the standing timber quality and volume.  But, 35 years in the business will do that to you.

Foresters mark on the International scale and loggers buy on the Doyle scale.  That's pretty standard in PA except when you get to the tier counties.  Then you might see some loggers buying on the Scribner scale, but that's for small sized cherry.

Value?  I wouldn't be able to tell you since I haven't looked at the property.  There are other things that you have consider besides the timber value.  How much is it going to cost you to log?  How much is hauling?  How much is road building?  How long do you have to harvest?  Any stream crossings?  Stream crossings can mean a dry gulch that trickles during wet seasons.  Trust me on this one.  You will need an erosion and sedimentation plan in place before you start logging.  You will also have to retire your roads and landing areas after you're done. 

If you're buying timber and you get into a batch of bad timber, its on you, not the landowner.  I've seen guys get burnt pretty bad due to grade or quality problems.  Part of the ignorance tax that you have to pay.  Its also known as the learning curve. 

[H60 Hawk Pilot]

Ron Wenrich & All

I walked through the Tract of Pine Timber today and noted the following:

A lot of nice & straight White Pine & Hemlock

We measured a few of the tree's for an idea as the actual size. The tree's averaged 24 to 28 inches. I was surprised as to the length and straightness of the White Pine, looked like large & long beams could be cut from them with feet to spare. The entire run (length) of the tree was around 80 feet as a best guess. I saw some bigger trees that were 30 to 34 inches in size. I'd guess at 10 to 12 tree's in this 30/34  range.

This tract of timber is easy access to me and they already cut the hardwood about the 4 years ago. They used a field of mine for the log yard and no creeks are involved.

We discussed damage to the tree's when cut. Some... I can expect to lay down (viewed today) without damage, others will hit like a ton of bricks and will splinter or shatter on impact, not into toping them out. Getting them down to the log yard will be quite easy with my dozer or Timberjack (oldie but goodie).

We talked about (Doyle) scaling the logs (shoulder to shoulder) in the log yard and seemed like fair deal to me. We talked about a couple nice trees that were 30 inch or so but had the tops broke out. They have been standing for about two years, are they worth cutting or not ?

They said the price of White Pine is 10 to 14 cents per BF,  I assume that's a sawed price.

I was going to call two of the local mills and ask them what they were paying for timber on the stump but did not have time today.


Avery
   

[tughill]

Kiln drying is absolutely not necessary.  Properly air dried lumber will have less internal tension, less end checking, less cracking, etc.  It has been said that to make fine furniture you need to kiln dry, but how do you suppose craftsmen 200 years ago made furniture?  Some of which is still around today?  I have air dryed many thousands of board feet of lumber, hardwood and softwood, with very few problems.  Folks that say you need to kiln dry are trying to sell you time in a kiln, sell you the kiln itself, or selling you a 'workshop' on how to operate a kiln.

I would watch out for shaky hemlock.  Hemlock is an excellent building lumber, but some areas don't have trees without shake.  Shaky trees are completely useless.

As far as value...that's hard to answer over internet.  So just buy the land the trees are standing on and don't worry about their value.

[H60 Hawk Pilot]

Shaky Hemlock

I assume the tree is worked.. stressed from wind and the wood is wrecked (shaky) while growing.

I will look this term (shaky hemlock) up.

How,  if possible...  can a tree be detected to pocess this (internal) flaw ?


Avery

[stonebroke]

You look at the butt end after you cut it down.

Stonebroke

[Ron Wenrich]

If a top is broken out of a tree, why would you leave it?  The worst you'll get is sap stain.  Usually the rot doesn't start until the woodpeckers get to it.  It should still be OK.

Sawed clear pine is worth $1+/bf.  We've paid $100/Mbf on the stump 10 years ago for some mighty nice pine.  The price hasn't slipped none.  Some mills don't buy much pine and keep the prices low so no one brings them logs. 

[beenthere]

Kiln drying is absolutely not necessary.  Properly air dried lumber will have less internal tension, less end checking, less cracking, etc.  It has been said that to make fine furniture you need to kiln dry, but how do you suppose craftsmen 200 years ago made furniture?  Some of which is still around today?  I have air dryed many thousands of board feet of lumber, hardwood and softwood, with very few problems.  Folks that say you need to kiln dry are trying to sell you time in a kiln, sell you the kiln itself, or selling you a 'workshop' on how to operate a kiln.
...................

Not entirely true. Kiln drying does have its place. Your implications of folks talking about kiln drying are not well based.

It may be your opinion, which is more than acceptable. 

[Ironwood]

I am with you Beenthere.

Tughill, take a look at my gallery, I have been at this awhile, and while you can get away w/ SOME non kilning, we (furniture builders) are pushing the envelope of design and structural aspects of wood. 200 hundred years ago furniture was designed differently, and, oh yeajh wood heat likely dried at least some of their wood before working.

In MANY instances it does need dried. IMHO, mileage may vary, (but I have extensive mileage).

            Ironwood

[red oaks lumber]

tughill,
your statement is so off base it makes me laugh, you have airdried many thousands of b.f. do you even know how kiln drying works? the wood properties? people like you make my job easier!
iv'e kiln dried many millions of b.f. of e.w.p maybe i'm just wasting time and money, if so, why are there so many kilns drying lumber in this country? we must not know what you know!
now back to the post:why not just buy logs from a logger?  if you log it what will you do with the pulpwood ,can't leave in the woods. buying logs delivered pay about .30 b.f. log scale,  pine on the stump around here brings .15 b.f.
my opinoin  buy it don't log it.

[Ironwood]

I goota say I agree w/ Red Oaks, ever timbered a patch? Tough, dangerous job. There may be some intial glamor and fun, but soon followed by hard, hard work. We have lost a few loggers to accidents, lets not have you be one of those. I have dropped a few trees (actually many), but it pales in comparison to what logging is, and its exposures. Save your health for other fun, like milliing and building your cabin.

Ironwood

[H60 Hawk Pilot]

The Deal for the White Pine & Hemlock is Struck.

The Logs will be scaled in my Log yard with the Doyle Scale. The price $ ___.__ per BF or per K has not been established yet.  We will call the two local mills and inquire -- " What are you paying for nice White Pine & Hemlock on the Stump. "

I'm the one with all the equipment and the Timber is only a stone's throw from my property line. Getting.. to all the pine is about  3/4 mile max. for skiding to the log yard.

I expect to hire a professional cutter to fall the trees and I will take over at that point. All in all.. 75 nice size trees of each type  W. P and Hemlock will be marked & cut. I wanted to have enough lumber to build 1 plus cabin with some (15/ 20%) allowage for defects and breakage and selection (grading) of lumber (No junk).

I want this pine deal to be good on both sides. Money is nice to have but in the end... only provides for your needs & want's. I'm always looking for a fair deal...  and to be happy after the fact.. works two ways for a 2nd deal too.

Regarding the kilm deal... now that seemed to bring folks out of their recliners  :-\.  My dad and still clicking at 89... cut & air dried a lot of lumber in his day.  He build two houses and I lost track of out buildings he built.

I see purpose on both sides of the coin and setting the pitch seems to be one reason. This log cabin is nearly 100% construction of pine or hemlock... add some insullation where I can & green tin roof.. that's it (one finished cabin).     

Avery

[Jeff]

tughill, before you respond to some of these posts, which I kinda feel yer goona do,  Check out
THIS LINK as a few of our members have beenthere, done that.  ;)