natural gas pipeline?

[paul case]

i was approached by oklahoma natural gas co about putting in a 4''  underground pipeline on the east side of my place. 1/2 mile on my and they would probably be 15' off the road. it will be feeding about 15 miles of country basically going from the ne corner of the state south  to highway 60. basically they want to use my property to make money by selling gas to 2 casinos and some residences. i am total electric and still 1/4 mile away from my house.
do any of you guys have experience dealing with these big companies? i have never ''sold'' and easment for a utility i dont use so i think it should benifit me somehow. what is the 15' x 1/2mile easment worth? pc

[Brucer]

Some of the big utilities are great to deal with, some are not. The thing to remember, though, is that when you grant an easement it is essentially forever. If you ever want to sell your land, the new owner is going to "inherit" whatever you signed. That could be a deal-breaker. If the utility is ever sold, you're going to be dealing with the new management. That could become a headache.

My advice in cases like this is to always talk to a lawyer. You can bet the utility, well-intentioned or not, will have a lawyer working for them on the easement. Charge enough for the easement to recover your legal costs.

[Chuck White]

If you're uneasy about selling an easement, maybe consider a lease, say for 30, 40, 50 years!

[ely]

typically they will have a set price for an easement, it can go up or down a little depending on your bartering skills. that small of a pipeline is not gonna make you rich by any means. but when /if you get down to the nego. make certain there are provisions for them to pay for surface damages along the right of way.... that land is still yours so you dont want it all rutted up and eroding.

i have seen our company pay 80 dollars a rod for easement on someones place then turn around and give them a check for 6k dollars because we plowed it to heck and back while working on it.

on a pipeline that small, they can easily re-route it and give the money/ headache to a neighbor. if they do not have another option  but your land, they also have the law of iminent domain, so be cordial in your nego.  good luck.

[pineywoods]

Ditto what the others have said. Make sure you specify the pipe is buried below plow depth. this protects you if your accidently break their pipe with a sub soiler. If you might ever wish to connect on to the pipeline for your use, get that in writing up front. Tapping on to an existing pipeline can get real sticky. The feds get involved. They will want to clear the row, who gets any wood? They will also want to keep the row cleared forever. Sometimes they use chemicals to do so. Usually you can farm it, but no trees or buildings allowed. In some cases they may use pvc pipe. There may be restrictions against crossing the line with heavy equipment.  Read everything carefully, get clarification on anything you don't understand.

[Kansas]

My guess is they will have or use eminent domain. There will be a number of issues involved, some already spoken of here. First thing to realize is that they will have easement on both sides of that line. That might well go for a 100 ft or better. You don't know what the future will bring, but if it is along the road, that could well ruin the development chances of your property. I have a natural gas pipeline that cuts through the back part of my place. I was barely able to get this house and lake put in because of their easement. There is an airplane that flies it every few days to make sure no one is digging around it. We have easements all over the place at the mill. That is part of the reason we are putting up a building across the road; we can't expand any farther where we are at.

I would immediately get a lawyer well versed in real estate. If they are simply approaching, there may be time to use strategies to raise the value of your land, through various filings of subdividing land, etc. I would also put in there that you have the right to tap into the pipeline, if possible. You have one shot at doing this thing to your advantage. You need professional help.

[John Mc]

You should also make sure tat the easement is for this one 4" gas line. Some easements are not specific, so the holder of the easement can put any sort of utilities they want across it - another, larger line, above ground electric or phone, etc. They can put whatever they want through there.

Decide what you want to allow and, as others have stated, get a lawyer to review it. The lawyer needs to be someone experienced with this sort of thing. It's not just a matter of knowing how to read a legal document, he or she may know what sorts of provisions the utility is likely to agree to, and what are deal breakers.

John Mc

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to all the above. Definitely be sure that the pipe is deep enough so that heavy equipment, loaded logging trucks, etc. can cross over the pipeline and that you retain the surface rights. They have a habit of placing thier pipes only 12 -15 inches underground, and then you are not allowed to cross over it with any equipment. It is a defacto taking of any timber lands on your property if you have to cross the pipeline for any time timber management etc. on the other side.

I believe that there is a photo in the Timber Equipment and Harvesting Methods Tread where you will see my Toyota pickup on top of a fill that the landowner had to put over the gas pipeline at his cost so that he could harvest his timber. You might also contact Forum Member Stump Jumper on their similar pipeline problem.

[paul case]

when i talked to them they did say that the line would deffinately be below 48'' , unless they hit some really big rocks that would make them rewrite the contract with their contractor so that they could bury only 30'' deep. i took that to mean that it may only be 30'' or 20'' if they could cover it up before anyone notices. i dont have any land suited for farming along this road. it is all hay and pasture land. no woods to speak of. i do however own both sides of the road for that same 1/2mile stretch.
i know that i already have one neighbor that didnt sign their ''survey papers'' that lets them survey your land. he said that he wanted nothing to do with it. it would go right through his front yard and he only owns 5 acres.
they may very well go around me and that would be just fine with me. i have a lawyer that has handled all my land deals and i will consult him before taking any action. pc

[Larry]

While working at the phone company I've bought several million dollars and a few thousand miles of easements.  You've already received a bunch of good advice worth heeding. 

Owning both sides of the road puts you in the drivers seat for a while.  Guessing it would cost too much to go around you.  The utility does have another option...they can use public r-o-w and pay you nothing.  You won't have any say in how they do the work and it will still effect your property access.

Any discussion with the utility should be completely documented immediately after the conversation.  It helps to have an impartial witness there just to back up your story.

An understanding of eminent domain is essential.  If the company wants your land and you refuse they will schedule a court hearing.  In Missouri the only thing the judge will decide is if the the company has the power of eminent domain (you wouldn't be in court if they didn't).  The judge will issue a ruling in favor of the company in a few minutes and they will have use of your land the next day.  The next issue too be decided is how much you should be paid.  That can run for years in the judicial system. 

When I was doing that type of work I did everything I could to avoid a condemnation suit.  It's not good for the utility, the landowner, or the ratepayers.

If you do let the utility buy an easement have somebody review it before you sign.  My experience is a surveyor will do a better job than a lawyer.  In fact a lawyer will add useless wordage to justify there bill.  You can fax it to me and I can check it for any red flags.  I've written plenty and you don't want to sign one written as a blanket easement, or one that gives away the right to place an additional line at later date.

[Ron Scott]

Be sure that the pipe is layed at least 48" deep as they say it will be. We usually want 5 feet here and that's what they also said in one case ,but when we went to log the area we fouund that the pipe was only placed 12-15 inches deep. The landowner challenged the Gas Company in this case and it was fortunate that he had the 5 foot depth in writing. The Gas Company then had to come back and place a fill over the Gas Line at their expense so that we could skid and haul logs over it.

Be sure that you have good documentation in your favor as stated above so as not to lose future management of a part of your property as desired.

[SPIKER]

You may also be able to tell them HOW the line is laid such as under ground directional drilling rather than cut, place & fill.   We build the machines that do that type of work all the time and it is more & more popular to  run the line deeper this method as well.   many times these lines are high pressure and you cant get a TAP for house hold use.   I would try for this as they can put in the tap easily now vs later and costs can be put into contract for cheap now as well.   That is IF the line is single Gas medium pressure type and not the high pressure multi-material line.

Mark

[Jasperfield]

Don't do it !  Don't do it !

They're doin' route planning and can now deflect to avoid your land.

Access to the utility, for your own use and even at a discount, is not nearly worth the encumberance upon your land.

Don't do it!

I'm a Professional Surveyor and I know what I'm talkin' about.

Resist the temptation.

[Warbird]

I would not go for it, either.

[paul case]

thanks for all your replies.
larry,
i may take you up on that.
i am still not sure that i really want to help those folks out but my dad seems dead set on it being a good thing for him. i cant see it though. he is already set up on propane and from what i understand that natural gas isnt much cheaper and he would have to bury 300 ft of line and change all his appliances.
however, i have heard of those who get continual payments for easements for gas lines. that could be a plus but i imagine that the gas company is already trying to find another way because of a couple of our neighbors. pc

[submarinesailor]

Paul,

Per mmBTU, propane usally runs about 3 times what natural gas does.  And for MOST appliances, the change over is real cheap and easy.  You just change out the jets.

Bruce

[Al_Smith]

I don't know the laws pertaining to easements .I will say this though my aunt and uncle in Knox county Ohio have nevar paid one cent for the gas that heats their home because of an easement deal done 60 or more years ago .

That 4 inch line runs exposed down a section of river bank .Old rusty steel ,no protective coating ,cathotic  protection ,nothing .Didn't  look any different two years ago when I last saw it than it did nearly 50 years ago when I first saw it .

[Randy88]

Its simple tell them to go jump in a lake somewhere else.   I've been on both sides of this deal and unless you hire a good lawyer, your going to wind up on the raw end of things, first off an easement is forever, second with gas you nor anyone can live, build, grow and do anything within so many feet of it ever again, next they can at any time come and do whatever they need to to your property where the gas line is located, till the end of eternity if they want.   You've been given some good advice and unless millions that go into your pocket are at stake I'd forget the idea until millions go into your pocket on this deal.    The gas company always win, the property owner never wins anything but gets the boobie prize of decades of headaches to come, most are not seen in the present time frame though.   It'll hurt property values in the future unless someone can use the gas the pipeline provides and I guarantee you its not a home owner or anyone you want as a neighbor either but more industry related.

As for telling them or agreeing to anything you want give that idea up now, you will never get them to do anything you want done period, not being so deep nor so far from anywhere you want it, nothing, once the paperwork is signed, its too late and remember YOUR signing their paperwork, not THEIR signing yours, there's a big difference, just ask any attorney and you'll need a good attorney, or multiple attorney's before your done dealing with any gas company.   

Every gas company makes millions off their pipelines every year that flow through private owned land and those owners get a small upfront settlement and can deal with the aftermath for decades to come.   I've seen it many times where a beautiful grove of tree's or landscaped yard are dug up to do repairs or maintenance to lines or someone wants to build something years later only to be told its too close to a pipeline and the answer is no, which is ironic if you ask me, you the land owner needs to ask permission to build something on your own property by someone that owns none of your land but has an easement to go through your land, they pay no taxes on it, you do, they have no investment but their gas line and millions of dollars worth of product flow through it every year but no locals receive revenue off of it but still you need their permission to build or plant on land you own and pay taxes on.   I can go on for hours on the downside of dealing with gas companies, I deal with them all the time, doing locates on private land that I do work for the private landowners, and its a royal pain, and never once will any gas pipeline person say, do as you wish we don't care, its more like I have to explain to the owner why what they want can't be done because of the gas pipeline that goes through their property and as they say then the sparks fly when the owner can't do what they want because of a stupid easement and after all the legal fee's are paid the pipeline's always win in the end, they should they had the legal documents drawn up in the first place and the owner signed THEIR dotted line.

[paul case]

how about a little update here.

i had decided to give the right of way since my dad wants to get nat gas to his home. they are getting easements signed by landowners and i signed my first one earlier this week. when anita and i had signed it the man brings out a big fat checkbook and writes me a check. i wasnt expecting that.
it was substantial, not throw a big party or nothing , but substantial.  the neat thing is that some of my neighbors to the south didnt want to even talk to the gas co about the pipeline if there wasnt any money involved so they routed around them. that means another mile through my property. the purchasing agent, jerry, said there would be checks for the same amount per foot of the other easements. the reroute will make the pipeline go right by my sawmill, at least thats what the surveyor said. pc

[Ironwood]

Well, guess it is done then. Good for you. We have a "historic" ROW on our one property edge. It is what it is. BIG line 24", lots of pressure (250 psi), luckily very far from our structures. We also allowed a small 3" line down our other property line for 700' feeding from wells up the road. They put a "T" in as at the time they were thinking of putting a "traditional spud" well in there. Market went down and well never occurred.But we're plumbed if it ever changes.

Ironwood

[Bill Gaiche]

Paul sounds like you did well. Dont snicker at your neighbors on the way to the bank. bg