Is this too much

[jaybe_2]

I am having a 130+ acres cut and the forester said that about 150 to 200 cords of fire wood will be coming out to get the saw logs out. This seems like a lot of fire wood  to me. My brother and I plan to pull 20 + cord a year to heat our houses and 200 cord seems like a lot of wood to let go. The forester has a very good reputation and has wooked with a good friend of mine for many years, Im just nervous about giving up that much firewood.

[bill m]

Questions about this job. Has the forester put it out to bid yet? I am curious as to why the forester said "about 150 to 200 cords of firewood will be coming out to get the saw logs out " Cutting the firewood trees is part of the process to manage your forest for better quality timber in the next harvest. Yes, some of the firewood trees will need to be removed to make room to fell the better saw log trees but not all of will need to be removed just to get saw logs out. If the job has not gone out to bid have the forester remark some of the firewood trees with a different color paint and have them removed from the bid. That way after the sale you could do the work yourself.

[SwampDonkey]

That's not really that much firewood on that acreage. 1-1.5 cord an acre, depending on tree size that could be one tree or 4 trees. Usually the forest is not that uniform that you can follow that average on every acre. Some places may require a little more removal and others maybe nothing is removed.

On 85 acres of hardwood that was 8" for average size, running 22 cords/acre, I cut probably 700 cords including the road and 3 patches of aspen no bigger than an acre each. Some places I never touched. We had to thin the maple, it was very thick. Close to 100 cords just from those patches and likely another hundred for road that run 3/4 mile.

I can show post harvest photos and you can't even tell we were there. Skidded tree length to. And no the trees aren't skun up. Winter cut, bark was tight.

[Ron Wenrich]

I did a sale on about 18 acres and marked out 21 cords of firewood.  That didn't include any in the topwood.  It was a sawtimber sale, but the firewood was taken out to improve spacing, species composition and quality of the residual stand.  I think you're stumbling on the word "need".  Maybe a better word would be "should".

If you think you can harvest the 200 cords on your own, then reserve the firewood for yourself.  If its already marked, then that's a bonus.  My experience has been that many landowners have a rough time following through getting out all the needed wood.  At your rate, it would take 10 years to cut those firewood trees, and you haven't even talked about the topwood.  Rule-of-thumb is about a cord/Mbf of sawtimber trees. 

[Clark]

...Im just nervous about giving up that much firewood.

You aren't giving the wood away are you?  If you're getting paid for it you can turn around and buy it from someone else.  Or you could talk to the forester and see if the logger is willing to sell you some of the firewood.

I'd agree with SD and Ron, that's pretty low volume in firewood that you feel you're "giving away".  It would also help if we knew you're general location, things change drastically from one region to the next.

Clark

[jaybe_2]

Thanks for the replys. Im in southeast NH, we are getting 15 or 20 dollars a cord for the firewood ( that does not seem like much money).
Im just Trying to make shure we have firewood for many years to come and also to be able to do another cut in 15 or 20 years. The forester is using a logger that that does chips and I dont know if thats good or bad, I hear it both ways. This land was cut 30 or 35 year ago and a forester was not used, I think the logger took all the good wood and didnt care what kind of shape he left the land in. The forester is working on the pricing now so I should know more next week. 

[SwampDonkey]

$20 a cord is about all woodlot owners around here get for stumpage on pulp and firewood. Some one else is doing the work and trucking.

[John Mc]

$20/cord would be pretty darn good in my part of VT. You'd only get that much if it was very easy to get to. OF course, in SE NH you are closer to some larger population centers, so maybe the firewood prices are higher?

[thecfarm]

No $15-20 per cord is not much,but you're not doing nothing to get the money.Probaly pulp is around $50-60 per cord. Take out the guy cutting it,the guy trucking it and that leaves $15-20. If concerned about the firewood,just have them take out the trees that are in the way to get the sawlogs out and leave the rest.

[SwampDonkey]

If he marked trails, he may well have estimated the wood in the trails to get the wood out. In my experience you can mark 10-12 acres a day, ribbon trails and spot trees between trails. Some crews don't need trails ribboned and others only see the trees and can't organize a trail network with lowest impact. Then the other side is some people marking think the land is perfect and trail marking is perfectly spaced. Equally as frustrating on both sides by times. ;)

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what the others have said. That's not much firewood/pulpwood coming off the acreage including the topwood and $15.00-$20.00 stumpage is a good price, at least in this area.

You can also have the marked firewood left out of the contract sale volume and left for your own use as was also stated. You will just want to get at it in a timely manner for the stand improvement needs proposed by the forester. ;)

[shelbycharger400]

its goin to take you time, but you can cut your own trails...  one tree will fill a pickup box tho.. and then some most of the time on stuff 18 in dia.

You could... mark the firewood trees... and sell it as standing firewood... one place i know of here was selling it, you cut, you haul, put sticks in neat pile off the road ect ect, for $5 to $10 a pickup load.   you want trails through your woods anyways.   other day...at a homeowners place,  i picked up a already downed red elm... 18 in dia...Jut me their,  i had it choped at 18 in long, loaded in bit over and hour, but i had 2 saws with, and i took every thing 2 inch dia up.    left the sticks...they said they would clean that up. 

[John Mc]

A couple problems with letting folks cut wood on your property: 

• Anyone who happens to own a chainsaw thinks they know how to fell a tree properly. Do you really want any yahoo running around cutting in your woods? Sounds like a recipe for a lot of residual stand damage.Not that I'm perfect, but at least if I screw something up, I've got no one to blame but myself.
• You are shouldering a lot of potential liability if someone gets hurt cutting wood on your property. Even having them sign a release will not protect you.

I have let a friend cut wood on my property, but I know him well, and know that he knows what he is doing. I'm still taking a risk, but nothing like I would be if I let any Tom, Dick, or Harry pay me a few bucks and have at it.

John Mc

[Holmes]

  I would be surprised if you get $5 a cord.  From my experience the chipping company will pay for the board feet of lumber and that is about it.  I thought my forester was reputable too, but he was not.  Holmes

[jaybe_2]

Im going to have a contract that tells me what Im getting paid before the cut is getting done.

[Holmes]

Do not be afraid to be dissatisfied with the bids. It can be rebid or you can have the forester come up with a better plan to make more money on the wood.  If you agree on a bid but you want to make sure the project is completed in a timely fashion,like 6 months or 1 year make sure the contract states "time is of the essence" for the completion date. Some outfits will start a project , leave for a year then come back when they feel like it.

[John Mc]

... Some outfits will start a project , leave for a year then come back when they feel like it.

If they ever come back. And guess which stuff they've taken, and which stuff they left "for later". Can you say "high-grading"

[SwampDonkey]

Be leery of high bids as much as low ball bids. If the bid is high your woods will show the effects post harvest. Some fella's will bid high just to get work. Someone will have to be on the ball to watch the harvest no matter who cuts it.

John, the weather can be at play to. We harvested a lot on winter roads and only had 2-1/2 months in two winters to cover the ground before it turned to clay slime. The road would never dry out for a truck in the warm season. In the winter it was like we had a paved road. The landowner did not want big permanent roads as he was absantee. For most of the way out the woods we followed an old road that we had to widen. Truckers don't like the mirrors being swat by trees. ;)

[Holmes]

The landowner did not want big permanent roads as he was absentee.

In this area you need to beware of the absentee forester. My forester thought he worked for the logger not the land owner..

[John Mc]

SD, my comment on taking the high value stuff and never coming back was not meant to be a slam on the industry in general, or an indication that there was never a good reason to stop partway through a job. I agree that (a) you do need to allow a reasonable time to get the job done and (b) the landowner should be willing to grant an extension for valid circumstances.

We've run into the same thing you described a couple of times over he past few years. "mud season" came early (like, January), the summer was wet through the whole season, etc. Even property that usually would allow good summer access was a mess

There's a logger in southern Vermont whose nick-name (among those who know his work) is "stinky", and it has nothing to do with his odor. He's famous for taking advantage of landowners (particularly ones new to the area, or new to having timber harvested). He doesn't get many repeat customers.

A friend in NY had a harvest done. They discussed what was to be taken, including some high- and some low-value trees. When the job was done, the trails were to be fixed up or recreational access. The high value trees got done, the wood he needed for building got done. The trails are basically worthless - rutted, high stumps, etc. He can't even get his 4WD tractor down most of them to get firewood. He was going to come back and "finish up"... that was probably 8 or so years ago.

Both of these types of cases are a good example of why a landowner (particularly one without much experience in timber harvests) should educate themselves about who the good loggers and foresters are in their area...

[chevytaHOE5674]

He was going to come back and "finish up"... that was probably 8 or so years ago.

That is why you need a good contract and hold a performance Bond on the logger. If things aren't up to the specs the contract spelled out you have legal recourse and are holding their performance bond, which they will want back.

[Holmes]

Ah yes the performance bond, how much should it be? 5%? 10% ? 20%? of the project?

[SwampDonkey]

Holmes in our case, he wanted to keep traffic off his lot once the job was done. Firewood, and about anything else on a  vacant lot, is liable to walk in remote or rural areas with no one around. I've left some cutup firewood on the front of my lot before and gone for an hour or so, come back to find it was missing. I live on a low traffic road, so the first joe that came along in a pickup likely stole it.