logging with horses

[lonewolf]

Just wanted some input on horse logging. I've been 23 years in the woods. 230 TJ grapple\cable skidder 753 bobcat. Little woman runs skidder and I fall n buck. Anyhow she would like to log with horses. Just wondering what to charge? It would have to be more as production will be a lot lower. Also would have to be quality timber.

[beenthere]

Going to buy her a team?
Or already have a team?

[lonewolf]

Just doing ground work for know. Horses fairly reasonable round here. Will need a team if we decide to go that way. She's handy with horses so that's not a concern. Must be why she tolerates me.

[Rick Alger]

Don't sell the grapple yet. Things are tight for horse loggers. Some guys in high quality hardwood are apparently doing okay, but trying to produce a living in low value wood is very difficult.

I work mostly in softwoods in  northern NH.

As far as what to charge, I have heard guys talk about $35 an hour, but I have never been able to charge anything like that. For me it has usually been a matter of negotiating stumpage or working out a cut and skid contract.

If a typical mechanized operator's stumpage bid is say $125/mbf I might be able to get the job at $100, but if I drop much lower the landowner/forester  usually says it's not worth doing.

For me the only salvation is picking the job very carefully and trying to avoid touching anything that brings in less than say $30 a ton roadside. If the pulp ratio is high, you'll probably lose your shirt no matter how good a few of the trees are.

I have used a skidder in combination with horses to good advantage in long skid situations. Bunch and sort trailside, and yard with the machine down widely separated designated trails.

Good luck

[Ron Scott]

I had a recent timber sale that was purchased by the Amish. They started logging with horses, but soon went out and rented a skidder. Their horses were too slow for the production they needed.

[lonewolf]

Sounds about like ho tw ihad it figured. We have some good quality timber in the area. I'm not gonna cut cord wood with a team. Sorry but it just won't pay. Was wondering what I can expext to prodoce with a team and fairly short skids ? Already figured on still using skidder or forwarder along with team. Keep skids short n try and be productive.

[beenthere]

There are a lot of videos on horse and mule logging on the YouTube. Might help to review some of them. They are not fast, and take a lot of care 24/7 which may be just what you want.

In the late 50's, I watched a two-man, two-mule logging operation in the mountains of New Mexico. One cutter on top, one down on the landing. Mule would come down with a log to the deck, while the other returned to the cutter. Just kept a log coming off the mountain steady as they would go all day long. They would switch cutter every so often by riding the mule up and down. Small corral for night time, with bale of hay, food and water. Ready to go the next day.
Pretty impressive.

[Okrafarmer]

Generally speaking mules are the way to go over horses. If you insist on horses, consider the Suffolk. My grandfather's family used to log with oxen, my great-great uncle did so into the 1960's.

[Ken]

We used horses on different jobs over the years but to be blatantly honest you require a high quality stand of timber to make it work if you are relying on the job to feed your family. At least that is how it is in this part of the world.   We would use the horses to pre-bunch in the woods for the skidder.  The skidder could hook up to a good twitch very quickly and was able to make better piles at the landing for the truckers.  This worked alright for a while until the horseman had both of his legs broke in the woods when a tree, under stress from being hauled around a corner, came unhooked from the tongs and sprung back to hit him. 

[Rick Alger]

As far as production goes, the best I've ever seen was on a White Pine lot where I was the cutter. Ideal wood, ideal conditions, ideal horses. The teamster averaged about twenty thousand a week.
Under normal conditions, a two-person crew will do well to average half of that.

[Corley5]

A local logger used a team with a forwarder.  He'd put in a loop trail for the forwarder and skid to it with the team.  Worked for him.  Then he sold his forwarder and bought a forwarding trailer to pull with the team, laid off his crew and worked alone for a couple years.  He's running a front end loader at feed pellet mill in Missouri now.  Had enough of the woods and Michigan winters.

[JohnM]

In the late 50's, I watched a two-man, two-mule logging operation in the mountains of New Mexico. One cutter on top, one down on the landing. Mule would come down with a log to the deck, while the other returned to the cutter. Just kept a log coming off the mountain steady as they would go all day long. They would switch cutter every so often by riding the mule up and down. Small corral for night time, with bale of hay, food and water. Ready to go the next day.
Pretty impressive.

That must have been quite a sight!  Very cool.

[Okrafarmer]

Back over a hundred years ago, they sure went through hundreds and thousands of horses every winter with the northern logging season. It was tough on man and beast. It was a whole different paradigm back then-- I guess losing a horse was kind of like rolling your log truck now adays-- it was a setback, and frustrating, but not the end of the world, and if you had the money you got another one and kept going. Big companies wore out and and killed (accidentally) many horses and men for the bottom line. Logging, fishing, and whaling claimed their thousands back then, but it wasn't until mechanization that farming began to vie with them for the danger factor. At least the horses weren't taken to sea to be lost on the whaling and fishing vessels. Now a days the bleeding hearts would have a bleeding heart attack if they witnessed the conditions logging horses were (sometimes) used under a century ago. I'm sure some owners and users were better than others.

[Andrew Lawrence]

 Diesel fuel vs grain  production vs quality  debt vs income , I think it's all up to the individuals involved  As they say A happy wife is a happy life

[snowstorm]

many years ago there was a article in the northern logger mag about logging with horses in maine. i dont remember what year this took place. they cutting on a mountian that was so steep they had to winch the horses up. they stayed there all winter. in the spring they couldnt come up with a good way to get them down so they killed them.