Ideas for Leave Tree Marking?

[Ron Scott]

Ways to stop paint marking trees for cutting have been discussed for years especially as a way to relieve the costs of timber sale preparation. It always comes back to the quality job wanted and management objectives desired, the timber types to be harvested, stand features, skills of the logger receiving the bid, harvest equipment being used etc. etc. It's hard to prepare a timber sale for logger bids when you don't know the skills and knowledge of the logger and his cutters before hand.

A row thinning of red pine may only need every 3rd row designated with a minimum ot tree marking where a selection cut of grade hardwoods requires individual tree marking.

The Organic Act which applys to National Forest lands requires that all trees removed from N.F. lands be individually marked for removal under the supervision of a professional forester. One needs to review the Monongahela Decision on clearcutting to see the effects when the USFS did not mark individual trees for cutting. State laws regulating timber harvests may vary however.

At least we have moved from marking cut trees with a branding axe to using tree marking paint. ;)

[beenthere]

May just need to stop the bleeding and move to the agriculture technology of the chip (used to keep track of cows) or the GPS (used to plant and harvest fields), and leave the logger with all the information where each individual 'take' tree is located.
But too many rules have been passed down (IMO) from the top due to too many people in the kitchen and trying to please too many enviros (they never will be pleased) and too much easy, free money on the fed side to make any good, common sense decisions on the ground.
I tend to think along the lines of Gary_C that the decisions be left up to the logger and the forester monitor the progress of the timber or reduction sales. If not making the right decisions, stop the cutting. Any damage will grow back in time, and the whole process cheaper in the long run.
Then, maybe "cheaper" isn't the ultimate plan of the Feds... any excuse to increase the size of the federal work force and have more control (not less) comes to mind.

[Gary_C]

At least we have moved from marking cut trees with a branding axe to using tree marking paint. ;)

Yes Ron, some progress has been made.

Actually a lot of changes, though I will not call them progress, have been made in recent years with state budget problems. The states need for more revenue has created a huge need for more timber sale revenue. Put that together with a early retirement program for the most experienced foresters and the resulting lower staff levels and you have a prescription for change, but not progress.

Here most state sales are now poorly set up, are very short of wood, and are not supervised very well in part because the foresters have little time for that activity, can't keep up with the speed of logging by the larger loggers, and are just plain tired of hearing about the poor quality of the sale prescriptions. And yet the legislature is pressing for more sale volumes and an accounting for the "missing wood."

Part of that problem is because now the raw cruise data is sent back to the main office where their computer program exggerates the volumes to make it look like the sales volumes are higher and the DNR is meeting their goals.

It's now a "just do what you've got to do to get the job done" attitude and yes, many loggers, especially the larger and more experienced ones are taking advantage of that "progress." 

[Pullinchips]

Ideas?  Any other ways to mark more efficiently?

I sincerely hope that someday I see no more painted timber sales. Perhaps it will take some new computer program/locater chip in trees to get that done. Or it may take more trust between loggers and foresters. 

Sadly this can not be done. There are simply to many loggers that dont have the employees with the skill to operate like this. And sadly there are still those that will high grade when given an inch. That said i dont think i have any that have cut for me, in the latter aspect. Sure i have had plenty of operators that were not the most skilled but that happens in an open bid setting.

If this was a paying customer (if i was a consultant) there is no way that i would turn anyone but a most trusted logger loose in wood worth up to $5000/acre!!!!!

[Pullinchips]

Not all "feds" operate under the laws that you quote. Those i think relate only to usfs lands. DOD lands do not comply. See my sig where i list my employer.  I have several hundred acres of clear cuts a year, at  a minimum 100.  These are not all one big area. But are several stands uaually with some edge effect left in place.

This year i had a near 200 acre clearcut that is basically a trapezoid shape. We pretty much have straight lines and clearcut everything inside it. This is for range expansion (machine gun range) on an army base though. Army gets what it wants.

In the past i have even had clearcuts for military construction where we have cut abandoned RCW cavity trees(with USF&W approval!!!), to facillitate troop accomidations.  Some of you probly could have inadvertantly heard about some of the effects of the sale.  Remember a few years ago when they said the Army will no longer train its troops in Bayonette Assult? This particular cut was on the main basic training facility for the army. The new footprint of the area encompassed part of the existing "bayonette assult" course. It was shortly after the sale which they stopped training with bayonnetes (other than here it is and this is how to affix it. they use to train for hours on a course with dummies). Not saying the sale had this effect as im sure it was a fore thought that they would stop it just saying this was the time frame and it forced it as part of the training area was taken over.

[Gary_C]

Sadly this can not be done. There are simply to many loggers that dont have the employees with the skill to operate like this.

And perhaps there are not enough foresters with the courage and the freedom to step away from old methods and attitudes and embrace a new method of getting the work done.

[Pullinchips]

Sadly this can not be done. There are simply to many loggers that dont have the employees with the skill to operate like this.

And perhaps there are not enough foresters with the courage and the freedom to step away from old methods and attitudes and embrace a new method of getting the work done.

Im not trying to get into an argument here with you. I never said your employees could not do it, and Yes there are plenty of unskilled foresters or opinionated foresters. But IF you read my previous posts i work for an agency that DOES operator select harvests. I sell over a thousand acres a year that way, in dollars it has worked out to over 1 million dollars this FY! I work with plenty of loggers that are able to do a good job and operate better than i could hope. Some better than others and i also have had to kick a logger off a Marked thin where he did not even have to make any decesions?  ???  This was due to the repeated cutting of leave trees that were marked (over an acceptable amout to operate) and then after he had cut what "it took him to operate" he still ran over and knocked the leave trees and broke roots and caused many to lean, and got the bark off most of the others.  Stragely enough the buyers replacement logger did not have to cut any leave trees beyond reason and did not manage to run any over!

Again, we have many places where if we get the "right" logger we will add hardwood areas into a sale and then allow that cutter operator to pull the pines out of this area. Other guys we wont even mention it, cause we know they will bust the tops out of the trees doing it.

[Ron Scott]

Yes the enabling Acts for each Federal Agency are different for the purposes for which they were established. The National Forests, National Parks, BLM, F&WLS, DOD lands, etc all operate under different laws, rules, and regulations.

An army base is quite different in purpose than NF lands. Clearcuts on NF lands are no larger than 40 acres unless they are authorized for a special purpose such as critical habitat for the endangered Kirtlands Warbler at 370 acres. The National Forest Management Act of 1976 now directs management of all National forest system lands. The environmental watch dogs aren't as concerned with the management of a military base as they are with the National Forest's management. 

[lumberjack48]

I knew guys that logged 40 yrs and still could not do selective cutting, no method to their madness.

When i cut painted take trees, you had to cut above the paint on the stump or face a fine.

When selecting what trees should be cut when it isn't marked, i was taught to take the defective trees first, then thin as needed.

[Gary_C]

Im not trying to get into an argument here with you.

And I'm not trying either. I am just saying there are hardened habits and attitudes on both sides of this discussion. And in trying to make changes like this, a good long term memory is not an asset.

[Rocky_Ranger]

I've used D X D in plantations of the south and had excellent results.  Prep costs there (marking and cruising) can run $20/Ccf ($80/acre), while administration is 1/4 - or less that cost.  Here in 4-FRI country our costs are about $60-$70/acre for marking (tracer paint at $14.00/quart ) and cruising.  Our first contract is 300,000 acres, or 18 - 21 million dollars just for marking.....  Now, how does DXD sound?  We have used DxD successfully in the past and will count on it for the future.  Most all equipment are operator/cab controlled - you can't find a chainsaw here anymore.

DxD is an acceptable form of tree designation, as are clearcut boundaries (ah, the good old days).  Doesn't have to be paint.  LTM always gives you a better stand, but why spend 50% more to gain a 10% return?  We got enough troubles without bankrupting the Treasury.....

[banksiana]

DxD with leave trees marked with a band at about 6 feet and a good stump mark is the only way you can mark your timber and account for it.  Sorry, but it is true.

[pappy19]

For many years Boise-Cascade used the diameter cut routine(16" and above) on their own lands, with the end results of very poor leave stands and bad genetics over time. The Idaho Department of Lands went with a modified leave tree mark and manditory cut on the remainder. They also had a $1,000 damage penalty on leave trees. I don't really see any way around the marking of timber leave/take except for some mechanical thinning contracts. Interesting discussion.

[Phorester]

GARY_C: "And surely the foresters that mark trees to be cut have heard the complaints from loggers that the paint marks are not visable from all directions which takes a lot of paint. Plus unless the cutting follows the same path as the marking was, it is not possible to cut the stand as it was marked."

We always mark on the same side of each tree.  The marking crew may put all chest marks, say, on our "left" side on the first line, but when we turn and come back we then put the chest marks on the "right" side of us, so all marks are on the same side of each tree. This also helps us see our previously marked trees as we are marking the next line.  The side marked is designated in the marking report as a cardinal direction; "Trees to be cut are marked on the south side with blue paint..."  The stump mark is usually put on the same side as the chest mark, but it doesn't have to be, since the faller is looking for the chest mark. Then the faller only has to look on the same side of each tree to see if it's marked.  Yes, he may have to walk around one side of a tree if he is coming at it from the unmarked side, but he knows he only has to look on the designated side of the trees for paint and doesn't have to walk all the way around each tree to see if it's marked or not.

On two occasions where the marking ended before a property line was reached, where it would not be obvious that the end of the marked area had been reached, I painted the word "END" vertically on some of the last trees marked in each of our lines and painted a solid circle around them at chest height, so the fallers knew they had to walk/cut no farther.

[beenthere]

So Gary_C just has to get out of his harvestor and walk around the tree, or try to drive the harvestor around it.   :

Am sure it isn't easy, regardless of how the markers try or how the loggers are frustrated finding marks.

[1270d]

The marking I was cutting on this past summer was excellent.  Large slash in bright orange on both sides of each take tree.  The manner in which it was marked was another thing altogether.  Some of the time a perfecct tree is marked while one next to it with a big cat face or canker at 15 ft wasn't.  It does seem that the markers never look up or back.  Im with garyC in the belief that a good forester/logger team will do much better with op select.  I have gotten to work on blocks of ttimber that our company has selective cut 3 times. All operator select cutting and 36 years later we are harvesting high grade hardwood veneer where there was once trash.  Of course there was a forester involved, but a trusting relationship was allowed to develop with the logger.  This was a high production tree length operation. 

The forest is much healthier, diverse and valuable now.

[Phorester]

Beenthere; "A thief can't simply remove the paint mark?"

It's not that easy to remove paint from a stump. Take a close look at trees. About any tree stump regardless of species has furrows or is otherwise pretty rough. The paint gets down into the rough spots, and it would take a large deep slice into the stump bark to remove all the paint.  If it was indeed scraped off, a bunch of scraped stumps would be a dead giveaway.  Sometimes a stump mark will come off with a strip of bark pulled from the stump as the tree falls or is pulled away from the stump, etc.  But if a lot of stump marks are missing, it's a signal that the logger could indeed be your thief.

[SwampDonkey]

I would think 10-15 acres a day could be marked and in two weeks over 100 acres marked by one person. You telling me that is expensive versus what the sale generates. You need to raise stumpage. The trouble is under staffing usually, the person has to be in 3 jobs in a day. To me it doesn't add up, because if your cutting wood your generating income for both sides. If your just out there to chew the fat and watch and stare, then there is the problem.

I am not in the same camp as operator select, I have not seen good results in only but a select few and that was in good wood. In my experience the dominant trees are targeted by the saw. But I do believe on uneven ground and hills that the operator chooses his trails. Marking, in my experience, takes the guess work out of the cutting, he just goes to work and it actually speeds things up in single tree selection. Nothing is as fast as a clear cut obviously. You need both sides to communicate with one another and know what they are doing...or more important, pay attention to what your doing and realize the alternatives or consequences.

I always marked trees with orange dot on multiple sides, a lot less paint than lines and very visible. I usually marked trails on even ground, so for sure marks are always in line of the trail, but also to the sides as the operator may need to reach in off an adjacent trail. All wood in the trails obviously don't need marked. It's all going to be cut. I would never expect a logger to make a trail like a snake.

I do notice on crown land they never mark trees in hardwood, most of those cuts are high grades by diameter. If they don't, then the natives do anyway and leave 25 foot long tops. Ten years later they go in and clear cut it anyway after the poor stuff begins to die back from shock. Most of the soil is sandy glacial till full of boulders on those blocks, so you couldn't grow much for hardwood sawlogs.

[petefrom bearswamp]

As a private consultant forester here in central NYS, the majority of the sales of northern hardwood I  marked were of the single tree selection method to achieve the desired basal area. some were group selection and a very few clearcut usually for conversion to AG use.
Of course, it usually only meant harvesting 20 to 25 trees per acre from the overstory, removing the culls and some pulpwood to achieve the BA. In doing this I walked completely around every tree that i pre selected and at days beginning put the biltmore stick on several to adjust my eye for merchantable height. In my prime I averaged 10 to 20 acres per day depending on terrain.
My son is a nys forester and most of his sales are single tree selection also.
I retired before the hardwood stumpage market took a big dive
Pete