Guessing Volume and How-To "Split" Up

[shamusturbo]

I have done firewood barters in 100 different fashions. All seem to turn out differently. Once or twice you are up and a few don't go as planned. This is a bigger one that I am struggling back and forth on. I am making an offer tomorrow and am not good at the bartering process.

A gentleman who drives truck for the company next door has property that the gas company put a drill pad on. They cleared everything they wanted to and left the decent wood behind, as per his conditions for leasing. **Photos below**

1st Question: Any guesses on volume? I have guessed at 1000 different piles of wood on volume and usually get within 15-20% which IMO ain't bad....I'll give you my guess after I strike a deal, if any.

2nd Question: If I processed THE ENTIRE pile, how would you split it? I would deliver his portion less than 5 miles from this location. (Processed, Delivered, and Dumped)

For example: If this is a 50 (Full Cord) pile, is 12 cords delivered to the owner fair or more towards 16 or even 20?

My numbers: I pay on average $80/cord-delivered pole length. I process for roughly $60/cord. (processor, operator, loader, operator, consumables) I try to pay as close to $30 cord if I am buying and moving the wood.

So in essence: the wood is worth $1500 to me, in total. If I take away 12 cords, leaving me with 38 cords, its worth $1140. I would charge roughly $720 to process the 12 cords. Which would leave a $420 (metaphorical) cushion.

Or am I going crazy?




 

[Ianab]

Another way of looking at it is this.

You "pay" the guy $1500 for the logs as they sit. They are now your logs.

How much cut, split and delivered wood can he buy for $1500? 12 cords maybe?

So you deliver the processed wood to his place, and no cash actually changes hands.  You can be completely up front with how much you buy logs for, and how much you sell processed firewood for, and that's the deal. If he didn't want any firewood, he would get $1500. If he didn't have the logs, and wanted to buy the firewood, $1500. Heck if someone else offers him more for the logs, he could still buy your firewood.

If you have to haggle, then maybe give him the "cash  discount" and up the offer to 14 cords or whatever you can afford (and still come out ahead). You remind him you can go and buy some logs off someone else, and sell the wood to someone else. You do want the deal,. but only if you make a profit.

As for the Volume? That's a "Whack" of logs.  ;) :D
OK, ugly firewood grade ones, but it's a decent pile.

[Mapleman]

Seems to me that the fairest way to deal with this is to agree on per cord price for the wood on the landing, and a price for the wood cut split and delivered, then process the pile keeping track of actual cordage, and settle up when the pile is all processed out and you know what was in the pile and what you delivered to the owner.  Takes the guesswork out of trying to estimate the volume in the pile. 

[beenthere]

Be careful of any deals that may involve "he gets his share first, then you finish with what is left" because he could kick you off the property before you finish.
Also, you get your share first, and he runs the risk that you don't show up for splitting up his share.
Gets to be a tricky bit of "trust" that involves risk that all works out. 

[North River Energy]

Did this a few years back, on a 1/3-2/3 split. Asked the trucker to pull a load out for the landowner, which I cut and split on site right next to the woodshed.  He then hauled two loads to my yard.  We both saw what was on the truck, so that took care of any problems of perceived volume.
Are you planning on moving your machine to his site to process his part, or move all the wood to your site first?

[Holmes]

 I would guess the volume with a rough rectangle x length  To me the end looks like average 4' high 16' wide 80' long? 5120 cubic feet  divide by  200 cubic ft loose cord 25.5 cords.  ??

[lopet]

If he's a gentleman as you said, he shouldn't be too hard to deal with.  People have to realize that in the firewood business you have to make at least a bit of profit or you not gonna do it for very long IMO.
No guessing here as the pictures probably don't show all of the wood. You will figure it out.  

[shamusturbo]

UPDATE: I haven't got in contact with him since Wednesday night when the opportunity came up. More updates to follow......

@North River Energy -I will process on his site. There are a handful of pieces that are NOT processor friendly and will leave as logs on a flatbed or dump trailer. I REALLY like the 1/3--2/3 split!! That sounds like a great way to do it. 

@lopet -I am a trusting individual and have had very few times when I have been burnt as was suggested by @beenthere . The gentleman is in his 50's or better and does not own his own splitter, so I have been told by his boss/employer/my neighbor who I have known my entire life. I think he will be tickled with getting a finished product on his door step with no cash cost to him or labor.

Computing the volume mathematically is almost impossible IMO. Maybe I would be much better at it if I had sawmill or grading experience. I try to visualize how much I can fit on a tri axle- self loading log truck and multiple by 6 cords. In my experience, on an average load of poles (about 6 "sellable" full cords out of 20 tons gross) *Again slightly conservative.

[shamusturbo]

Some other things I forgot to mention. He requested that as much wood as the land clearing company could salvage, that they would. This is what is piled up. There is probably 3X as much that was mulched that would have made just as nice firewood. I DO NOT believe that he burns as a sole source of heat. I am not certain how long 6 or 8 cords would last him but if he never had a mechanical way of splitting wood, I am guessing quite sometime. I will get more details as they come along. Sorry to make it sound like a CSI episode. I am just looking for some of the same, outstanding advice I have come to expect from Forestry Forum......

[luvmexfood]

Don't know much about the price or value of log length firewood. But myself, I would only do it on a percentage basis. He gets X percent of what it yields in firewood.

[beenthere]

........
-I am a trusting individual and have had very few times when I have been burnt as was suggested by beenthere .

You asked.. so the reason for my response. Didn't mean to imply you or the person with the wood was not trustworthy. Others who read about your plight when they find this thread may not be aware of how they can get hung out to dry when not knowing what might, or could happen. ;)
  Reminds me of a kid I knew in HS who had a nice Ford convertible. When he was low on gas, he'd stop by a group of girls and offer them a ride around town but that he needed gas. They'd fill the tank, and he'd drive a block and stop.. tell them to get out.
Dirty trick... and apparently didn't bother him at all.

And no need to use the @ function for members already posting in your thread.  Save it for calling attention to a member who is not posting, and you want to bring your thread to their attention. Otherwise, we may lose the @ function on the forum.. according to Jeff.

[North River Energy]

Sturbo,
Worth mentioning that on that 1/3-2/3, I wasn't using my processor, and the wood was all gritty from being used as skidder fords in the low spots.
Given the hassle of constant chain filing, and that he'd already cut some himself, we both knew I was in for it labor wise.  Not sure, but I think I went through a chain and a quarter on seven cord.

In your case, if you can make time on most of the material, with a minimum of uglies, you may want to do something less drastic.  It sounds like this guy is local to you, and the last thing you want to do is leave him with any kind of impression that he didn't get more than a fair shake.
Also consider that you're bringing your iron to his site, and if he's never seen a well-equipped firewood operator make hay, he could easily think that he's been had once he sees the production rate.
To that end, once you figure out the split percentage, maybe keep a photo record with time/date stamp of each load that goes to him, and also that you haul away.  That way there can be no question as to what went where, and who got what.

It's that classic 'good fences make good neighbors' principle applied to record keeping. 

Once you're both satisfied with the outcome on the 'easy wood', work out a second deal on all the wood that will kill your production rate. 

[gullydweller]

I had a deal with a local land owner to cut standing dead oak.  I would cut split and deliver him a full cord then take and sell three for my end of the deal.  Then get him a fresh one before I cut my next three.  He liked that I held up his end of the deal first before taking care of myself each and every time. 

[NWP]

Charge him hourly to process what he needs for his supply and agree on a price for the rest of them and just buy them and be done with it.

[boscojmb]

How much cut, split and delivered wood can he buy for $1500? 12 cords maybe?

In my area $1500 would get you 5 cords if you buy summer time. If you wait for snow, you'll get 4 cords and possibly some change back.

It sounds like you are going to set your processor up on site. Can you work out a percentage deal? One load in your truck to him and one to you, or 2 to you and one to him, or 5 to you and 3 to him.

The numbers are going to be different for every operation and every location around the globe. Working on a percentage split seems the best option from my point of view