anyone experienced interlocked grain in cherry

[phinds]

Friend of mine told me about an American black cherry tree that he felled and was going to use for firewood when he discovered that it had massively interlocked grain and was damned near impossible to split ... stringy as all get-out and just did NOT want to come apart.

I'm very familiar with interlocked grain (EDITED BY ADMIN PLEASE READ RULES but I've never heard of it in cherry.  Then after he and I had emailed for a while, I had a flash back to many years ago, before I knew much about wood and had never heard of interlocked grain. I was given a section of cherry about 18" in diameter and about 18" long and after using it as a splitting block for several years I went to split it up for firewood and I had EXACTLY the same result my friend described. I got a wedge stuck in it and I though I was going to have to burn up the whole log just to get my wedge back  :'(

My friend says there were no obvious signs of interlocked grain in the cherry, it's just that we can't think of any other possible explanation for why it would be so hard to split. There weren't any embedded limbs or anything ... both our pieces were straight bole sections.

I've poked around on the internet and all I can find are one statement after another confirming what I already knew, that cherry is a straight-grained wood. I've never even heard of spiral grain in cherry, much less interlocking.

SO ... I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience with interlocked grain in cherry or cherry that is VERY hard to split up?

Thanks.

[mesquite buckeye]

I've seen it. Wood cut from it is spectacular.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
You are new, so prolly don't know that the only swear word on the Forum is "DanG". Just a heads up.

;)

Did not think of cherry as being a straight grain wood without some interlocking. Have had plenty that was hard to split with a maul (back in the day when that is how I split firewood.  ;D )

I also never thought of interlocked grain being the results of spiral grain switching back and forth from right to left spiral.

[SwampDonkey]

I always understood interlocked grain as being quite rare or uncommon in temperate hardwoods except American Elm, sycamore, and black tupelo. But it is caused by regular switching back and worth of spirality. Most species I think do spiral, but when or if they change direction it is usually due to age. Anyway, with interlock grain you get ribbon-stripe figure. And spirality angle changes with height in the tree. When I did coastal cruising in BC we had to determine the degree of spiral grain in softwoods between 5 and 6 meters up the trunk. It was subjective. I believe we had to envision the 1 meter section as being divided into 10ths. Like being split from end to end to make 10 slabs. And follow the grain in the bark from the 5 meter mark and count how many sections that crossed before you reached 6 meters. If you crossed 5 slices/sections, it was a code 5 for spiral grain. ;D

[WDH]

I always understood interlocked grain as being quite rare or uncommon in temperate hardwoods except American Elm, sycamore, and black tupelo.

You obviously have not had a date with sweetgum  :D.

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, phinds.


 
I have no idea whether this Cherry would have split easily.  I hope not.

[phinds]

Thanks for the replies

@beenthere, yeah I'm new ... didn't know you couldn't say *#($&@*#  :D

If you never thought of interlocked grain being the results of spiral grain switching direction, then we are talking about different things. What I'm talking about only happens as the result of spiral grain changing direction. There may be other things called interlocked grain but if so I'm not aware of them.

@swampdonkey, my understanding is that spiral direction switching in some species happen regularly ever year or every couple of years and has nothing to do with age. Some species switch after MANY years so in some sense I guess you could say that has to do with age.

Interlocked grain only causes ribbon stripe on quartersawn wood ... flat cut surfaces (as you can see from the examples on my site page that I linked to in the original post) do not show ribbon stripe, although they do show grain striping. I don't know for sure whether or not ribbon striping in quartersawn wood can be caused by anything OTHER than interlocked grain but so far I don't think so. (Of course the number of things I don't know is astounding  :-\)

@wdh, I never realized that sycamore had interlocked grain even though I've seen a fair amount of it. After reading your post, I double-checked w/ some research and I see that everybody else already knew that. Thanks. I learn something new every day. I only have a couple of flat cut sycamore pieces on my site and I can't see any sign in them of interlocking. I don't know if that just means my particular samples were not interlocked or if, much more interestingly, it means that interlocked does not always show up the way it does in the examples on my interlocked grain page. I thought that was what you always saw w/ interlocked grain which is why I found it surprising the hear that cherry has interlocked grain ... I can't see any sign of it on flat cut pieces so I assumed it wasn't there. The samples on my interlocked grain page were chosen BECAUSE they show that characteristic. I'll have to look into this some more ... my page may be a bit misleading without my having realized it. Sure am glad you posted that comment about sycamore.

@magicman, does that piece (nice piece by the way) have interlocked grain? Clearly there's SOMETHING going on with it but I can't tell from the pic if it's interlocking.

[SwampDonkey]

My information that I reiterated in my post above comes from 'Textbook of Wood Technology"

I'm wondering if this is a post about letting us know about what we thought we knew and somehow what was written about 30 years ago has now changed. (which may be possible). ;D

As to just using 3 examples of species, again I was just using the text as a reference. No doubt their are more, and two of the species there I listed don't grow in my area.

As to the switching of grain spirality due to age, that relates to regular growth not genetics of species with inherent interlocking grain like elm.

Yes, method of sawing can bring different figure for sure. But you just have to choose the right method to get it. It's buried in there someplace. :D

[WDH]

In diffuse porous species, like sweetgum, sycamore, and blackgum, the spiral grain can cause warp, making the lumber very difficult to dry. 

I understand that spiral grain is a result of the cambium producing wood cells at an angle to the vertical.  Interlocking occurs when this spiral angle reverses in subsequent years.  Sweetgum and sycamore almost always have spiral grain, and I have seen it interlocked as well, but the interlocking does not seem to be as consistent as the spiral. 

Interlocking seems to be much more prevalent in the tropical species.  I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that these trees do not have a long or distinct dormant season resulting from abrupt seasonal changes like summer and winter.

Here is a pic of an unruly flatsawn sycamore board with spiral grain.  I could consider this Wood Art.  I would name this piece "Sycamore Warped on Walnut"  :D.



 

You can see in this sticker stack a short flatsawn board in with quartersawn boards.  It has really bowed and warped, even with all the weight on it from the above layers.  Nothing that you can do about delinquent sycamore  .



 

[Magicman]

@magicman, does that piece (nice piece by the way) have interlocked grain? Clearly there's SOMETHING going on with it but I can't tell from the pic if it's interlocking. 

I am no "expert" and I have no idea.  I only saw customer's logs in my portable sawmilling business.

[WDH]

I have never seen interlocked grain in cherry.

[mesquite buckeye]

We found it on a really old, gnarly one up in the mountains in New Mexico. Would have made quilted figure, but alas, was cut up for firewood instead. :(

[phinds]

I should have added that I don't know squat about trees or fresh-milled lumber or drying problems. I'm aware that they exist but that's about the extent of my knowledge. I only work with dried planks and it is my firm belief that they show up magically at various lumber yards and exotic wood stores dried and ready to work and any relationship between them and trees is purely coincidental  :D

That warping in sycamore is interesting. I do often regret not knowing more about milling and drying, but my TODO list just for my site keeps growing over the years and not shrinking. I HAVE heard that interlocking causes two severe problems in milled planks, warping and difficulty splitting.

[phinds]

We found it on a really old, gnarly one up in the mountains in New Mexico. Would have made quilted figure, but alas, was cut up for firewood instead. :(

AAAIIIEEEE !  People who use highly figured wood for firewood should have their hair set on fire  >:(

[beenthere]

Maybe that is what happened to my hair...  I've been burning it for a good many years (the wood, not the hair).  The hair is long gone now.  ;)

A few dump truck loads of Black walnut a few years back was an absolute bear to split with a maul due to the interlocked grain. Some walnut splits easy like ash or oak, but most of this was like elm.
But even some white ash can be just as knarly too from the interlocked grain.

[SwampDonkey]

It is very common for ash to have curly grain. Split some and the split faces are all wavy. But curly or wavy grain does not effect grain direction like interlocked grain in elm. Curly ash splits pretty easy and clean actually.

[CRThomas]

Friend of mine told me about an American black cherry tree that he felled and was going to use for firewood when he discovered that it had massively interlocked grain and was damned near impossible to split ... stringy as all get-out and just did NOT want to come apart.

I'm very familiar with interlocked grain (EDITED BY ADMIN PLEASE READ RULES but I've never heard of it in cherry.  Then after he and I had emailed for a while, I had a flash back to many years ago, before I knew much about wood and had never heard of interlocked grain. I was given a section of cherry about 18" in diameter and about 18" long and after using it as a splitting block for several years I went to split it up for firewood and I had EXACTLY the same result my friend described. I got a wedge stuck in it and I though I was going to have to burn up the whole log just to get my wedge back  :'(

My friend says there were no obvious signs of interlocked grain in the cherry, it's just that we can't think of any other possible explanation for why it would be so hard to split. There weren't any embedded limbs or anything ... both our pieces were straight bole sections.

I've poked around on the internet and all I can find are one statement after another confirming what I already knew, that cherry is a straight-grained wood. I've never even heard of spiral grain in cherry, much less interlocking.

SO ... I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience with interlocked grain in cherry or cherry that is VERY hard to split up?

Thanks.

ROCK CHERRY AS WE CALL IT IN MY AREA IS ONLY GOOD FOR BURNING  LOOSE I BOUGHT A SEMI LOAD AND COULDN'T BUNDLE IT DO TO THE WAY IT SPLITS. I TRIED TO SPLIT IT WITH A 6 WAY AND IT SPLIT LITTLE ON ONE END AND BIG ON THE OTHER END. BAD WOOD TO SPLIT BUT BEAUTIFUL WOOD TO BURN.