Smicksburg Upright Bandmills

[Horselog]

Does anyone have any experience with these mills?  There's several for sale on sawmill exchange and they seem reasonably priced for what they do. I like the idea of the small blade thin kerf with the advantages of vertical sawing. I thought I remember hearing it was maybe an Amish fellow, maybe Allen Yoder, who made them? Can anyone confirm?  Or know if he's still making them?  How to contact him? 

Thanks for any information you might have.

[Horselog]

I've done some more research and found a company in PA that makes upright band mills, Lion Country. I talked to them on the phone and they sound like they know what they're doing, they were reps for Timber Harvestet when it was still around.

I'd still be interested in any info on any small band upright bandmill that you might know about.

[47sawdust]

You might contact the Sawmill Exchange.They have sold a lot of sawmill equipment over the years.They also used to have a directory to sawmill manufacturers including Amish built.That upright band mill on a circular carriage (Lion Country)looked pretty slick.

[ozarkgem]

You might contact the Sawmill Exchange.They have sold a lot of sawmill equipment over the years.They also used to have a directory to sawmill manufacturers including Amish built.That upright band mill on a circular carriage (Lion Country)looked pretty slick.

I only saw a horizontal mill on their site

[47sawdust]

Ozarkgem,
I see two Smicksburg uprights one in NY,one in Wisconsin.

[YoungStump]

 LumberTiger MFG is an Amish company out of Windsor OH that builds sawmill equipment. They specialize in vertical band mills, they will build the whole mill carriage and all or build just the band head to retrofit a circle mill carriage.

[svart ole]

Now you guys have me thinking. I have a old belsaw type mill and I know where there is a old vertical linebar resaw.............
I will have to see what the widest set tooth saw I could get. I used to be a saw filer and the thought of collecting all the stuff to level, tension, swage, shape and grind a real bandsaw blade has always put me off. It was ok when I got paid to do it but not enough hours in the day.

Ran across this on YouTube. One way of doing it on a shoe string. No radiator just a open water tank, I do not see a cable for the feed works under the carriage so the seem to be pushing it by hand. Not sure what the pop bottle on the one injector line is there for. May also be the reason for the rag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdgNbtLRQmo

[longtime lurker]

Now the way I'd run that would be to use the Belsaw for a primary breakdown saw then resaw the flitches on the linebar band resaw. You need to keep bark and mud away from good bands.

What size band resaw? If it's a 8" or bigger avoid it... big bands are a PITA to maintain. I don't think when performance and band life get factored in that they are expensive, cheaper if anything which is why production mills still run them.... but I'd be all over a 6 like the white on rice. With a 6" you need a couple of 6's for special jobs, but you just fit 3's or 21/2's for day in day out work. You can sharpen and set them with basic equipment like Cooks sell, but you get a lot more performance then thinner bands, faster straighter cuts, and you can start looking at satellite and TC teeth options which make a good thing better again.

[svart ole]

Lurker,

Like I said, "I used to be a saw filer". I know all about what it takes to maintain wide heavy gauge band saws. Last one I did fitting on was a Prescot 5' Horizontal slat bed feed. The bands where 32 Ft and I still have scars on the back of one hand from turning them inside out to level them on the inside. I always told the crew to NEVER TAKE A SAW OFF THE LEVELING BENCH. Came back from lunch one day and they had pushed a saw they had just replaced off the wheels. I took one look and ask them if they could see anything odd about the saw. The operator informed me that I must have put the teeth on backwards. It got real quiet when I asked him if he took it off the leveling bench.

I am thinking more of just a "because I can" project here. I know of a few smaller vertical resaws around (not stuff you would use for recovery in a mill) that have smaller wheel. Less that 4 ft and narrow wheels. I know I could regrind them to carry one of the little saws used on the toy mills. Sorry I do not want to offend anyone it is just that the band mills I worked with years ago where so much larger so to me a Woodmizer or the like is just a toy band mill. They work great for what they are designed to do and lets face it big wood is hard to find and there is no reason to swat flies with a sledge hammer. I just think it would be a fun project to build a hybrid mill like that.

A friend of mine in fact the guy who taught me saw filing built a short wood version of a band head rig that he used to produce pallet stock. It was a scaled down version of a large production mill with a high level of automation. He made a living with it until his health put a end to it. He passed away years ago but the man was a wizard when it came to building mills.

I will have to see what is out there in the line of saws and look at costs.  Then again I have too many projects now. But something to ponder. You do know that saw mill are a bad habit and a hard one to kick once you get it in your blood.

[Horselog]

Now the way I'd run that would be to use the Belsaw for a primary breakdown saw then resaw the flitches on the linebar band resaw. You need to keep bark and mud away from good bands.

What size band resaw? If it's a 8" or bigger avoid it... big bands are a PITA to maintain. I don't think when performance and band life get factored in that they are expensive, cheaper if anything which is why production mills still run them.... but I'd be all over a 6 like the white on rice. With a 6" you need a couple of 6's for special jobs, but you just fit 3's or 21/2's for day in day out work. You can sharpen and set them with basic equipment like Cooks sell, but you get a lot more performance then thinner bands, faster straighter cuts, and you can start looking at satellite and TC teeth options which make a good thing better again.

So you're saying that a 3" band doesn't require swaging or anything special besides sharpening and setting?  And also that a head that will run a 6" will run a 3" or 2.5"? 

I know nothing about bands at all, trying  to learn all I can.  What other considerations are there in choosing a band size? 

Can you elaborate on your thoughts about circular vs large band head Rigs?

[svart ole]

Horselog,

I know this is long but the best I could come up with for a short answer. You can't just give a yes or no to some questions.

No

You have two different types of blades here. Not getting into it too deep one type they grind or file a tooth into the saw plate that makes up the blade and the teeth are set left and right.  The other type is made of thicker stock as a rule and after grinding the tooth shape into the saw the end of the tooth is swaged to a wide tip then the outside of that tip is "shaped" to a uniform tooth contour on both sides and then sharpened so you end up with a tooth somewhat like the shape of a insert saw tooth.

As for wheels, the narrow set tooth saws run on the small band mills you see all over today run a smaller wheel. For reasons of traction and tracking and tension limitations  most of the time they have some sort of cushion on the center of the wheel. V belt or the equivalent of a big rubber band.
The larger band saws with large diameter wide face steel face wheels are a different breed of cat. The wider heavy gauge saws most of the time run a swaged tooth but you wouldn't have to. The face of the wheels is not flat and has a contour ground into it to carry a saw under tension. Like a circular mill blade it has tension in it. So it is "hammered" to fit the application. It is rolled to input the correct tension, front and back tire and back to run on the wheel.

In theory one can run narrow blades on large diameter wide face all steel wheels. There are more things that come into play here than just swapping blades and running it. Just putting a longer settooth blade on a large high strain band mill and firing it up could very well lead to loss of life and limb.

Ah now on to the second part of your question. Circular vs large band head rigs.

When you say large band head rig I am going to assume you are talking about running heavy gauge saws with swaged teeth. First of all there is a whole different skill set needed to maintain a large band head rig. Saw maintenance being the most expensive. Out sourcing saw maintenance in my book is not a option so figure on buying some expensive equipment and learning how to do it your self. Let me tell you that is not going to happen unless you can find someone to teach you and it wont be free. That in itself is a deal breaker for a small scale operation.

Circular mills on the other hand do not have that issue. There is more to setting up, operating and maintaining a circular mill than just buying one if you want it to saw good lumber. If all this was easy this forum would not be here. That said it is something that anyone with good mechanical abilities and the right mind set can pull off. Find a mentor that has run a mill that actually ran right. How would you know that, look at the lumber piles if it looks like crap, thank the man for his help and walk away.

Now I am going to say some things that have been said before. Circular saw mills will produce good quality lumber very quickly. The saw kerf thing a nice marketing tool for folks selling small band mills. If you want production break the log down and run the cant through a band resaw one that will take a high feed rate. Now as for the statement that "narrow kerf lets you get extra board out of a log". Depends a lot on the what you want to call a board. In my book short narrow boards of one end of the log don't bring much when you sell them. So unless you are sawing lumber just for fun and that is ok. I always liked running the mill more when it was not my sole source of income. It comes down to production or how much saleable lumber is sitting on the skid at the end of the day. I am not going to tell you what type of mill circular vs band is better as I am biased. Go find one of each type of mill that is being run by someone who know what they are doing and see how long it takes them to break down a log. Spend 4 or 8 hours there and look at the size of the lumber piles and make up your mind.

Remember there is more to a sawmill operation that just running the log through the saw and making a board. Moving logs to, lumber from, off bearing slabs and or edgings to and from the mill. This all takes man power or some level of automation to get done.

[ozarkgem]

Does anyone have a link to a pics of a Smicksburg mill. I have not been able to find one.
None of the ones on the exchange have pics.

[Horselog]

Horselog,

I know this is long but the best I could come up with for a short answer. You can't just give a yes or no to some questions.

No

You have two different types of blades here. Not getting into it too deep one type they grind or file a tooth into the saw plate that makes up the blade and the teeth are set left and right.  The other type is made of thicker stock as a rule and after grinding the tooth shape into the saw the end of the tooth is swaged to a wide tip then the outside of that tip is "shaped" to a uniform tooth contour on both sides and then sharpened so you end up with a tooth somewhat like the shape of a insert saw tooth.

As for wheels, the narrow set tooth saws run on the small band mills you see all over today run a smaller wheel. For reasons of traction and tracking and tension limitations  most of the time they have some sort of cushion on the center of the wheel. V belt or the equivalent of a big rubber band.
The larger band saws with large diameter wide face steel face wheels are a different breed of cat. The wider heavy gauge saws most of the time run a swaged tooth but you wouldn't have to. The face of the wheels is not flat and has a contour ground into it to carry a saw under tension. Like a circular mill blade it has tension in it. So it is "hammered" to fit the application. It is rolled to input the correct tension, front and back tire and back to run on the wheel.

In theory one can run narrow blades on large diameter wide face all steel wheels. There are more things that come into play here than just swapping blades and running it. Just putting a longer settooth blade on a large high strain band mill and firing it up could very well lead to loss of life and limb.

Ah now on to the second part of your question. Circular vs large band head rigs.

When you say large band head rig I am going to assume you are talking about running heavy gauge saws with swaged teeth. First of all there is a whole different skill set needed to maintain a large band head rig. Saw maintenance being the most expensive. Out sourcing saw maintenance in my book is not a option so figure on buying some expensive equipment and learning how to do it your self. Let me tell you that is not going to happen unless you can find someone to teach you and it wont be free. That in itself is a deal breaker for a small scale operation.

Circular mills on the other hand do not have that issue. There is more to setting up, operating and maintaining a circular mill than just buying one if you want it to saw good lumber. If all this was easy this forum would not be here. That said it is something that anyone with good mechanical abilities and the right mind set can pull off. Find a mentor that has run a mill that actually ran right. How would you know that, look at the lumber piles if it looks like crap, thank the man for his help and walk away.

Now I am going to say some things that have been said before. Circular saw mills will produce good quality lumber very quickly. The saw kerf thing a nice marketing tool for folks selling small band mills. If you want production break the log down and run the cant through a band resaw one that will take a high feed rate. Now as for the statement that "narrow kerf lets you get extra board out of a log". Depends a lot on the what you want to call a board. In my book short narrow boards of one end of the log don't bring much when you sell them. So unless you are sawing lumber just for fun and that is ok. I always liked running the mill more when it was not my sole source of income. It comes down to production or how much saleable lumber is sitting on the skid at the end of the day. I am not going to tell you what type of mill circular vs band is better as I am biased. Go find one of each type of mill that is being run by someone who know what they are doing and see how long it takes them to break down a log. Spend 4 or 8 hours there and look at the size of the lumber piles and make up your mind.

Remember there is more to a sawmill operation that just running the log through the saw and making a board. Moving logs to, lumber from, off bearing slabs and or edgings to and from the mill. This all takes man power or some level of automation to get done.

Very interesting thanks for all your input. There's always more to things than you think. What's the largest band, generally speaking, that is made in the first way you describe?  In other words, the teeth are ground to shape then set.  I know there's 2" bands like that, is there anything larger? 

I'm still trying to get my head around the entire circular vs. band discussion.  You bring up some interesting points. It seems to me that if you have a plentiful supply of logs it would tend to push you towards a circle, maybe a thin kerf band could be better when you have to make the most out of a smaller supply of logs.

Very interesting discussion

[longtime lurker]

I started to type out a long response the other night, power went out and I lost it, swore a lot... Then found Svart had covered it anyway by next morning.

Every band resaw I've ever used had a placard on it that covered strain settings across a range of widths and gauges. Usually a 6" will also have strain for running 4/5/6 inch bands in three thicknesses for instance. You can run narrower - but the performance loss is great enough that the factory never thought anyone would so didn't do the maths. Ive run 2½" on a six, and treat them as a disposable blade: sharpen and set till its shot.
I like 3's due to the fact you start getting teeth options etc. Putan ammeter on the rig and you can tell when the band is drawing more power ie it's getting blunt and by changing out before its dead blunt and the band runs hot it will hold its tension. 3's can be sharpened and set in house with minimum gear also: maybe 3 or 4 times if you change at the right time, then they need to see a real filing room with all the equipment. 6" is probably the most common production resaw size, at least here.
Finding out who the closest shop capable of doing big bands is should be something you look into before deciding.

Circle vs band is easy: how much is the timber worth? It takes a big log to pick up an extra board with a band due to kerf if you're backsawing... and a well tuned circle might make more sawdust but the thing is the extra accuracy often means they will get more boards then a thin band because thin bands are notorious for wandering. Real big band primary's are nearly as beefy as circles so don't wander much.
Ignoring that though the real issue is that circles can cut more in a day so if you're cutting low value products you just  take the money you would have spent on bands and instead feed it more logs, make more sawdust, get higher production per man day, and make more money.
Where a band is worth looking at is when the higher recovery has a higher value sufficient to cover the increased running costs. Cutting say Walnut the maths favours a band. But for low or regular value products the circle wins every time.

The way to look at wide band vs narrow band is simple. Wide bands cost more but cut better straighter and faster which makes them cheaper in the long run in a production mill. Which is fine till you total one on a lump of steel in a log. I would not consider a wide band head rig unless you were getting good clean logs and had a debarker and a metal detector on the line. Band resaw where you're getting cants is different: the risk of metal, plus band killing dirt is gone.

Simple truth is there's no one size fits all perfect solution in sawmilling: all you can do is work out what will best fit your resource and product mix 80% of the time and accept that the other 20% you'd be better with something else.

[svart ole]

Well it has been 40 years but if I recall the 5 ft Horizontal Prescott resaw I maintained had saws that where 16 gauge 8" wide and about 32' in length.

By the way no saw likes dirt, bands even less than circular. What your you pick for a mill is always a matter of need and money. Like the song goes, you can't always get what you want.

[Ron Wenrich]

I remember running the math for a circular vs narrow band discussion about 15 years ago.   I compared production costs of a narrow band mill vs the production costs of a circle mill.  I also used the 20% increased production that the narrow band mills used.  At that time, the breakeven point was $600/Mbf, log run.  Log run means you have to figure the value of all the lumber produced from the logs.  It isn't an easy number to get to unless you are running high value logs.  I was using numbers fed to me by guys doing full time work on the Woodmizer vs my numbers in a circle mill.  Those numbers will change for different mill configurations.

A lot of things have changed in the past 15 years.  When you get to higher production band mills, the costs go up.  I know that saw costs are a lot lower on the circle mills.  I've run those numbers quite a few times. 

I also searched some of those old threads and came across one on the kerf savings from the narrow band vs circle mill.  One point brought up is all those kerf savings come out in the last board sawn.  It is usually a low grade board, unless you're sawing some high value wood. 

[longtime lurker]

Our product mix averages at around 50% 6/4 and 8/4 framing lumber, 15% downgrade, and 35% premium product targeted at the upper end of the cabinetry/joinery/flooring market.
Our income stream looks like framing 30%, downgrade 5%, and premium products 65% but value for the premium stuff includes value adding components such as KD and mouldings. 

Here's the thing: the only time I want less kerf is quarter cutting the good stuff. Backsawing I have never really looked at the dog board of a flitch and thought "coulda had an extra board there", because it's always low grade landscape or pallet stock or total trash. Most of the framing is rough sawn green, and we have to be accurate or it doesn't sell: band wander with the thin bands is something that ain't talked about much which I suspect is related to the assumption that everyone cuts oversize to allow for DAR. I don't.... My circles are accurate enough that my idea of oversize is setting the gauge on 2" when I want 50mm. Outside of the softwood processors thin bands are regarded poorly in Australia and the inability to cut a straight line at any sort of speed in hard wood is why.

With the 4/4 quarter sawn stuff though I hold the dog board in my hand, look at the rapidly growing sawdust heap and see lost dollars aplenty. I think we're going to put in a sash gang resaw this year or early next because particularly in smaller logs the increased recovery is worth it... I'm working on an extra 10% recovery there based on dog board+kerf saving = extra board per flitch. I looked at band resaws - either a vertical like I'm used to or something like a West Plains 500 - but the high strain and resultant accuracy of the sash is a winner, and I don't have to put up with 30' long bands at $600 each to get it.

I think thin bands are great, and there's plenty of guys doing well with them, but not in what we cut here.

[ozarkgem]

Well it has been 40 years but if I recall the 5 ft Horizontal Prescott resaw I maintained had saws that where 16 gauge 8" wide and about 32' in length.

By the way no saw likes dirt, bands even less than circular. What your you pick for a mill is always a matter of need and money. Like the song goes, you can't always get what you want.

what does a 8" x 32' band cost?  I think Hall and Oakes mill uses a 11" by 52' band. I wonder what that cost.