Need HELP!!!!!

[PatrickFrancis]

I live in Union City OH and my parents and I own a couple of woods on  our 600 acres.
Approx. 16 years ago I had one of the woods logged. They took 100 trees and we received $16,000. Two weeks ago a company out of Dayton OH ask if they could log one of our other woods that had some oak, ash and hard maple in it. They gave my parents a contract that said the conservative estimate was that they knew there was at least 4,000 worth of trees.  My parents are 87 they don't know anything about logging --- nor do I.
The logging company said they would call us and let us know when they would be starting the process so that we could be present.
They didn't call us until the 2nd day of cutting and they were done on the 3rd day by the time we got there. They had taken 110 trees. Ash, White Oak, REd Oak, Pin Oak, and hard maple.  We received a check and inventory sheet yesterday that paid 4,200 for the entire lot of logs (almost 200) They only gave us 5 or 10 dollars for some of these logs. We would never have allowed a 30 yr old tree to be cut for five dollars.
 Yesterday we inventoried the woods to see if the trees were hollow etc. . .They weren't. The trees that were cut looked very healthy and there was nothing to lead us to believe that the logs weren't anything but good. I don't know about grading but I have a hard time believing that the logs they took and paid us 5 dollars were all that bad! One of our local woodcutters who does firewood said The tops and stumps looked great!
 The trees that were logged out (we didn't see the actual log just the stumps and the tops) appeared to be good. Some of the trees were anywhere from 30' to 36" in diameter. The distance between the stump and the tops was sometimes 20' This was not reflected in the payment.
Some of the neighbors we have spoken to said that they had received at least $100 for an ash log in this area. The ash trees that were cut from our woods were straight and did not have any rot in the center and were 30" in diameter.
We were so upset to find that the rest of the stumps and tops looked like the logs were really nice. . .however on the sheet they had been down graded.
 We don't know what to do next to see how badly they ripped us off.  Is there someone we can contact concerning this kind of thing? We are not tree experts --- and we just don't know where to go next with this. The logs couldn't have been as bad as reflected on the sheet if the tops and bottoms were good could they? And if the logs were only worth $5.00 why would they even want them?
We feel cheated and taken advantage of. This Woods was my mother and fathers and they are 87. I feel they were an easy target and these people took advantage.
   Its not only the money that is the issue. They have been going around our area trying to get people to allow them into their woods. We don't want this to happen to other "old" folks that are taken unaware. I hope this all makes sense.
Any advise would be so appreicated!  

[Kirk_Allen]

Hire a KNOWLEDGEABLE Forester Attorney!

This is not the first time nor will it be the last that things like this have happen.  

Lots of questions.  Was there an actual contract signed or was this all verbal?

If they said they would call you prior to starting the process and didnt then they are in breach of contract.  Even though its verbal, most states honor verbal contracts in the same fasion as written contracts.

I would get an attorny ASAP and you may be able to put a hold on any mill in the area excepting the logs.  

SEEK A GOOD LAWYER WHO KNOWS FORESTRY and if you cant find one, find a good lawyer who will listen to a forestry consultant.  

[KENROD]

 Welcome to the FF PatrickFrancis

Sorry to here about this :'( :'(
I agree that you should find a knowlegable attorny ASAP. A forestry consultant might now of one that has expierience in forestry issues. Your state foresry department would know of one.
I would also be getting the word out about what these so called "loggers" did to you. It sure sounds to me like they ripped you off. This kind of thing really boils my chicken. >:( >:(

[Buzz-sawyer]

You need to IMMEDIATELY get in contact with the enforcement branch of you department of natural resources.....it is thier specific job to deal with these situations on a daily basis.................they can make things happen!

[PatrickFrancis]

Thanks so much. I am searching the net for the right resource so I know who to call. Sounds like good advise. Do you think they can look at the stumps and the tops and tell whether a log was downgraded or bad?
thanks again!

[PatrickFrancis]

Kirkallen,
There was a written contract. My mother has it and I am to pick it up today. I read it before this all happened but I didn't look at the details. Prior notice of cutting was verbal. I intend to read the contract and find out what I can today asap. I will keep you all posted so you can see what you think.
Thanks for your advise and time. . .it is so appreciated!

Life sure hands us some challenging situations. I never thought I would need to know about this particular subject --- but I would imagine that 90% of all farmers and landowners around me do not realize the value of their woods and are unsuspecting of someone trying to take advantage of that ignorance. Its a good lesson and hopefully one that doesn't cost me too much in the long run!
thanks again!

[beenthere]

Hopefully by now you have already made several phone calls.
To:
lawyer
state dept nat resources
state attorney general's office
forester
forestry consultant
sherriff

  
Time is wasting and you are 'in the know' and need to act soon, IMO

Each call will get you an answer or a referral with number of who to call next. Please don't hesitate. Locating someone on the internet may cause you precious time. Get the word out that something is wrong, you know it, and need to move to get it corrected.

[Buzz-sawyer]

It will be a bit more than that to get a verdict on quality...........one quick way is to check with the mill they sold to and see what they were paid on what logs (enforcement will do this hopefully)..........but I can tell you this if you had 30 inch ash trees they were worth more than 5 buck each. I pay at the lowest for standing timber.05 cents a board foot thats $18.80 ,
  at .10 a foot you would get $37.60 for a 16 foot long log
Both these prices are on the low end of the scale.....if it was straight and clear more could be had for veneer.

[beenthere]

Patrick (I hope you are making phone calls, instead of reading this    )

If not, here is a place to call.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/Landownerasst/Landownerasst.htm

[Jeff]

I am going to lean a little the other way for a moment so as we dont give PatrickFrancis to many false hopes without knowing all the details. If there was a contract that wassigned and the only breach was that they didnt contact the property owners before harvest that I doubt, will hardly be a case. I know you said your folks are 87, but do they take care of all thier other legal and personal matters?  THis will be looked at. True, this company may have been preying on an easy victim, but thats why they do it. To legally steal timber. Does the contract state that certain sums will be paid for certain qualities? Or was it a lump sum on a stated number of trees. Which trees? Were they marked pre-contract? Was it only the marked trees that were harvested?

It may be that if your folks are of sound mind, and thatthe only problem here is they were educated to the real value of the trees after the contract was signed, there may be nothing you can do.

I am just trying to play the devils advocate here. Not trying to justify anything, just trying to see things in black and white.

If I buy a painting at a yard sale from an old feller for 5 bucks, knowing its possibly worth 5,000 is that a crime? If he finds out after the fact because he sees me on the antique road show, what will he do? What can he do?

[Engineer]

Let's say you have an average log size of 16" dia. by 8.5' long.  Doyle scale says 77 board feet in the log.  Let's say you get 15 cents a board foot ($150/MBF) on the stump, which I think is low for hardwood of those species.

So, 200 logs x 77 x 0.15 = $2310.  30 cents a board foot gets you in the range of what was paid.    Some of the logs were probably smaller - a 12" log gets half the board feet of a 16" log, and how many were veneer logs?  Best I've seen paid around here for veneer has been a buck-fifty a foot, maybe up to two bucks, and that's for cherry.  

Maybe my math is a bit general, and maybe the logs were better quality.  But I really can't say that you were ripped off.  It sounds low, especially considering the species.  Still, I'd make a few phone calls to have the company explain why the value of what they got from you was so low.  They did give you the tally sheet, and it should have scaled volume and unit prices right on it.

[WH_Conley]

I am about 125 miles away, in atraight line. Talked to a couple of guys that are logging full time around here, without having paperwork to go on, sounds like tract run in this area is running .32 to.38 a foot. This would be select for size not grade. Again I have not had opportunity to do close math.
    Lack of communication by a few can give all loggers a bad name, so can stealing.

[Kirk_Allen]

If I buy a painting at a yard sale from an old feller for 5 bucks, knowing its possibly worth 5,000 is that a crime? If he finds out after the fact because he sees me on the antique road show, what will he do? What can he do?

No crime in that...............however in this case, it was represented that a specific value was assigned to the timber and it appears the party representing that value falsely represented the actual worth.  The key difference is that you paid 5 bucks for it and that was the end of the transaction.  Had you represented that it was worth 5 bucks knowing its worth more then you lied in the completion of your transaction.  Thats false representation.

What is tough is proving he deliberately misrepresented the value.

Example: That painting is worth $5.00.  You, not knowing anything about the painting market, accept that price because I am the professional paint expert.  You then find out from another expert that I misrepresented the value. Now you have a case to come after me.  

  

[bitternut]

Patrick

Sorry to hear of your plight. Some people do take advantage of older citizens which may or not be the case here. It never ceases to amaze me why people that have timber will sell it to some guy that knocks on their door and says its worth "X" amount of dollars. If some one knocks on your door and says "hey, I'll give you $ 5000 for that year old car sitting in your driveway", you will say NO and go find out what it is really worth. If you have timber to sell go through a forester and save yourself a lot of grief and financial loss.

[PatrickFrancis]

Buzz Sawyer---
Here are some of the stats from my sheet.

I checked the price sheet for the ash.
There were 73 logs I was paid $338.00.
Grade 1 I was paid .07 for grade 2 -- .07 1/2 cents
grade 3 ---- 3.5 cents

White Oak
31 logs. total paid. $710.
Prime: ---- .35
grade 1--- 17.5cents
grade 2 --- 10 cents
grade 3 ---- 5 cents

hard maple:
6 logs for $41.00
grade 1 --- .15
grade 3 --- .04
(whats interesting about this is that when we walked the woods and inventoried the trees cut we counted 8 maple trees cut.  All logs were taken)

Red Oak:
89 logs.  ---- 1495.
prime- 40 cents
grade 1 -- 20 cents
grade 2--- 10 cents
grade 3 --- 5 cents

Thanks for your input!

[PatrickFrancis]

Bitternut,
You are so right. We are kicking ourselves for being so gullible and ignorant of this kind of acitivity. If the guy was genuinely honest then great . . .but if he wasn't we don't someone else making the same mistake we did.

WE have 3 businesses. We pride ourselves on having good values and ethics b/c our reputation is everything when building a customer base.  We treat people like we would like
to be treated.

This is a case where it would be good to be wrong. . .however, something tells me that we are not. . .
because we see how easy it is to cheat people in this situation ---- and it appears that there is more than one way
to do this. Like not notifying us of the initial cutting. . .seems odd to us b/c if our business was cutting wood we would want the people there for our own protection as well as theirs. I would want the landowner to know what was leaving his property --- then he wouldn't suspect I might be cheating him!

Thanks for your input!

[WH_Conley]

Patrick, your original post said you received an inventory sheet for $4200.00. If I read your last post correct, money you received was $2584.00. I am not trying to pick, just making sure I understand. Also a couple of questions:
(1) Were you to be paid per stumpage
(2) Percentage of total money
(3) A combination ie; x amount of money per grade

[Buzz-sawyer]

Here are current prices being paid in Ohio sawmills for delivered logs.......delivered cut logs are usually twice as much as logs standing in the woods.So ruffly, half of these figures would be your ball park price.......

Click this site (below)to see were I got the figures.

http://woodlandstewards.osu.edu/pdfs/ohiotimber2.pdf

White Oak
 
Prime: ---- .50-100
grade 1--- .25-.60
grade 2 --- 20-.30
grade 3 ---- .12-20

hard maple:

grade 1 --- .60--1.20
grade 3 --- ..12-.26

[bull]

Where's the Mill Tally sheet, what your showing is a log count
that is not going to help your cause...
logs delivered in to the mill are graded individually, you should have a stick by stick tally, how many bfd per log what grade it is, and what the grade pays. You have no idea what kind of logs landed at the mill w/ a log count. IE 89 white oak logs ????

 When logging for another land owner I pay 1/3 of mill scale.
 and the land owner is given the original mill tally sheet.

 Im, not sure if your folks got the shaft or not but like most depression error folks *( The 70+ to 90  YOA crowd)* that have reasonable incumbrences of forest land, They SAVED it but never managed it, so the large trees were of great size but the grade was not comprable. I have delt w/ a few families in the past 15 ish year w/ regard to timber and land values and many have not a clue......   GOOD LUCK  keep us informed as to the outcome

[PatrickFrancis]

Wh Conley.
The check recieved for the timber was 4200. They received a $250 deposit before cutting. That wasn't part of the timber price. Sorry for not being clearer about the that.  

[WH_Conley]

Gotcha, Bull is right you need that tally sheet