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Author Topic: Titebond I vs II  (Read 2470 times)

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Offline Brad_bb

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Titebond I vs II
« on: February 28, 2018, 07:41:00 AM »
So I'm having a local woodworker build some Q sawn oak doors with jambs for me.  I don't have time and he has a lot of experience with doors. Anyway, I asked him what glue he'd use for the glue up of the styles and rails.  He said you NEED to use Titebond I.  He had some glueups years ago with Titebond II and said when it gets warm, there was some movement.  He talked with other peers who had seen some of this.  So after a bunch of back and forth he said Titebond admitted to him that yes it will soften and can move.  III is way worse and not recommended at all.  Titebond I though, will not move even with heat.  How does it get heat?  Like a front door facing south getting sun.  I've used a lot of Titebond II, most notably on my timberframe sawhorse backs.  I used it because they would be outside alot and could get wet and II has some water resistance. For inside stuff though, furniture projects etc, I'll use Titebond I from now on.
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Offline 69bronco

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2018, 08:57:40 AM »
Are they exterior doors? If so an interior glue would be my last choice.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2018, 09:00:30 AM »
Another thing to log into my memory... Thanks..
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Offline kenfrommaine

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2018, 09:13:35 AM »
I have used titebond II for years, for cabinet doors and interior doors, counter tops etc. and I can say I have never had one joint fail due to the glue. I build maybe a dozen sets of kitchen cabinets, vanities, islands etc a year. Wonder if its a regional thing with humidity or heat? 

Online btulloh

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2018, 09:55:29 AM »
Ditto kenfrommaine.  No issues with Titebond II.  All PVA glues can creep, but door stile/rail connections not particularly susceptible.  Heat is the enemy of all glues, but it depends on how much heat.  Titebond III excellent as well for weather situations.  TB I has a little longer working time, but not waterproof.  

If you're really worried about creep and/or weather you can use Resorcinol glue, but it's harder to work with.  Titebond III is pretty good stuff for most situations though.

Offline justallan1

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2018, 03:31:32 PM »
Not knowing a thing about this, I have to ask just how hot does it need to get to make glue fail?
I'd agree with the thought of it being humidity and also weather changes as much as anything else.

Online btulloh

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2018, 05:36:00 PM »
It depends on the glue.  All the of the PVA glues are fine at normal temperatures when used as they were intended.  That info is published by the manufacturers, but they are good for any reasonable temperature where glued up wood joints on furniture would be found.  If you put a chair in kiln you could expect some issues though.  The higher the temperature, the more creep you can get in normal use.  Heating a joint is a good way to get it apart when you need to.  With PVA glues it takes a lot of heat.  Hide glue requires much less heat to get apart.

One of the important qualities of PVA glue is the slight plasticity it retains when cured.  Seasonal wood movement can wreck a glue joint over time, so a little give is a good thing. It can't overcome the movement in a wide cross-grain joint for too long though.  Long-grain joints with today's PVA glues hold up well. 
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Offline 21incher

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2018, 05:52:31 PM »
I have been using Titebond III for several years now due to it being rated  for FDA food grade usage. I know they state that it is not for structural use and over 150 deg F the strength starts to drop off. I would not use it for any kind of constant exterior exposure though. I have placed hot pots on cutting boards glued with it and never had a problem.  :)
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Offline Don P

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2018, 06:21:29 PM »
I tested 5 or 6 different pva's for a furniture plant in the early 80's. Titebond 1 was one of them. I did several thousand samples both long and cross grain, shear and tension, various open and closed times, various pressures (when I walked the floor and checked presses on various components they were originally running a range from 30 to almost 300 psi, we worked on that!) and we built a 150 degree hot box, our semi trailer simulator. All the pva's softened to some degree and strengths dropped at that heat, a couple got scratched off the list there. The heat of sanding is a good telltale there, does it get rubbery or maintain a good bit of rigidity. A good bit of that is the fillers. Titebond did well, we did have a couple of small companies that tested better. The top overall tested sample, we ordered several totes from and it was a dismal failure on the floor... so much for all that testing . We ended up with the second choice and it performed well for the rest of my time there. I generally use titebond 2 but for a larger run of interior work I'll get 1. My feeling is that it's usually a tradeoff, when they enhance one property another suffers so I don't buy waterproof when I need interior. I'd say by far the biggest factor is joint prep.
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Offline low_48

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2018, 10:55:14 PM »
He's wrong, Titebond I will also creep with heat. I was taught to never use it for veneering on a table top because of that. Pour a wide bead out on a piece of waxed glass. Pop it off when dry and put it under a heating pad. It will come out like a wet noodle. I went to West System Epoxy a long time ago for exterior doors. 

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2018, 12:27:16 AM »
I think a lot of hobby woodworkers don't really know the difference in some glues (including me).  This was an interesting bit of information for me.  I'd been using Titebond II for most of my projects, but with this information now, if I'm doing a furniture or indoor project, I'm going to switch to Titebond I.  For an exterior door, I'd have to consider the options and get more input.  My Q sawn doors are interior.  I happened to ask him about what he uses for the glue ups which prompted the discussion.  My using Titebond II regularly, his explanation was beneficial.
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Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2018, 02:24:31 AM »
Well, I just figured II was a replacement for I and III a replacement for II.  Shows what I know/knew!  I had a gallon of I for a long time.  I also picked up several quarts of I that were on clearance.  Finally finished them up and bought a gallon of II.  I've been using it for lots of stuff with no issues but now I guess I will think about when something might be exposed to heat and what to use.
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Offline LeeB

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2018, 04:49:42 AM »
Would be interested to hear @tule peak timber chime in on this. 
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Offline petefrom bearswamp

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2018, 09:43:25 AM »
I have used all three.
All have their specific properties.
All work well for me.
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Offline bluthum

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2018, 01:27:11 PM »
I've made scores of house and shop doors interior and exterior up to 6' x 12'. I started with resorcinol and switched to titebond II way long time ago. No problemas, ever with glue joints in decades of doors.

For cabinet doors and interior wood i always used tiebond I [well elmer's before titebond came along] until titebond I and II became about the same cost when I mostly switched to II just for convenience.. Still no issues to speak of. I've had a few cab door joints fail but if you do enough of anything you'll find an issue some day. 

As for Titebond III I've only used it in cutting boards mainly due to it's cost and slight finickiness. The darker color can be a plus at times. 

I don't feel compelled to change anything for the foreseeable future. Just one more opinion......

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2018, 03:27:53 PM »
Exterior doors with a glass storm door in direct sunlight can get quite hot especially if the door is dark in colour, perhaps this is where the problems or concerns come from.

Offline Larry

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2018, 03:43:47 PM »
Titebond says PVA glues should not be used in structural applications due to creep. I think a heavy oak exterior door, swinging to and fro, may be at least borderline structural. Not wanting to take the risk I use West Systems epoxy for exterior doors. I did break Titebond's minimum temperature rule one time and payed the price :'(....learned my lesson about rules.

Most other interior projects get Titebond I but sometimes I use III because it has a slightly longer open time. I have no use for II.

I did use III on an exterior garden gate as a test. Probably not fair as I also pinned the M&T joints. I'll report back at the end of 10 years.

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Offline Don P

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2018, 05:12:14 PM »
I do like West, especially when restoring work that has sloppy or decaying joints. Resorcinol is used for structural work, off the top of my head it is the only structural adhesive that we can get our hands on. I've tried to find purbond polyurethane in the states but haven't found it in under tote sized containers.

Larry's comment about minimum temps brings up several failures I've had. It isn't the air temp in my shop that matters so much, especially early in the day, it is the wood temperature.

Oh, if you want to sound all edumacated, glue's are natural... hide, casein, rabbitskin, wheat, etc. Adhesives are synthetic, PVA, polyurethane, epoxy, resorcinol, etc
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Offline Larry

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2018, 05:21:27 PM »
I've used resorcinol with good results, but its really hard to find currently, and than I wonder if it is fresh stock.



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We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline DR_Buck

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Re: Titebond I vs II
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2018, 05:56:01 PM »
So getting back to Titebond I original   ....       Can it be thinned with water and still perform well?    I have over a half gallon that has about 1 inch layer of really thick stuff, then everything under it is thinner, but not thin as it should be.   I've used it on a few projects with out any issues other than it is hard to spread.     Or is it even worth messing with.?   I can buy a new gallon for about $18 on Amazon.
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Glue- Titebond, Quick and Thick

Started by caveman on General Woodworking

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Last post June 25, 2018, 08:22:49 PM
by Larry
 


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