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Author Topic: New Home Build Pricing?  (Read 530 times)

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Offline Stephen1

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New Home Build Pricing?
« on: November 18, 2019, 10:29:28 PM »
I just sold my home and will move to my cabin and build a home over looking the lake. My planning timeframe is short, I would like to start April 1 2020 I would like to build 12-1500 sq ft. 
Money is always an issue. 
I have a Sawmill
I have a Kiln
I want to use as much of the wood I can from my own sawmill and kiln, siding, framing, flooring, mill work, Timber Frame
I have building codes to deal with. 
My thoughts are Timber Frame, always overbuilt, minmum amount of graded wood. The Timbers need to be graded but that is all. All of the wood I can saw and dry, panelling, flooring , siding, Timbers. 
I would have to send out for the mill work, but probably better than buying more machinery for a 1 time use.
Can I do this and equal a stick built framing in cost?
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Offline Don P

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2019, 07:33:55 AM »
If all things are equal, probably not, but are all things equal?
If you are comparing the timberframe with a large amount of sweat equity vs stick frame with mostly bought goods then the equation shifts.

I was working on framing for a stick frame yesterday. Several people have asked why we are making the framing for a stick framed house. What we had was "free" timber, volunteer labor and very few greenbacks, so the equation shifted.

In the end though, within reason, build what makes you happy :).
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Offline fishfighter

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2019, 07:58:29 PM »
A lot depends on your time frame to finish and move in. Small little house I am building is a somewhat timber/ stick build. It's a little over 1ksf, 2 bedroom/1 bath. Broke ground dang near 4 years ago, but had many set backs. :(

Here is a link. http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=82663.0

At this point, I have less then 15K into it and that also covers my cost of my little mill. Logs came off my place and free logs too!

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2019, 09:06:21 AM »
It's hard to compare cost, seems like it really comes down to how you are going to enclose the timber frame.

When I built my house I compared the cost of stick frame with 6" fibreglass and 1.5" of foam over the timber frame verses a ICF wall with timber frame roof and loft floor. In the end I did the stick frame +1.5" foam insulation over timber in part of the house (living, kitchen, dining) and regular stick frame plus 1.5" of foam insulation for the rest  so my extra cost was the timbers that I cut from my logs.

If a recall correctly the ICF only cost a bit more in the material cost but I had no experience with ICF and had lots of experience with stick frame and needed to get started soon so I went with that. 

 It did cost me a considerable amount of extra time an effort to incorporate the timber frame in the house verses stick frame alone.

Offline alan gage

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2019, 11:42:14 AM »
I don't have any timber frame experience and have a little stick framing experience.

One thing that's always bothered me about a timber frame is how the insulation is done. It seems to be either studs between the posts or insulated panels outside the frame. Either one of those are strong enough to support the structure by itself so what's the point of the timber frame?

That's a bit of a rhetorical question. I realize there is tremendous aesthetic appeal as well as "if it makes you happy that's what you do."

I'm kicking around the idea of building another house in the future and have tried to justify a fully timber frame house to myself but can't do it. I have thought about a hybrid system though which would be to conventionally stick frame the walls and roof and then build a semi-faux timber frame inside that. Essentially building a double stud wall system with the inner wall being timber framed and left exposed. This gives you a big open cavity for insulation and running wires. It would be easy to run horizontal or vertical boards between the wall posts (on the back side) for attaching sheetrock or whatever you want for wall material on the interior.

This lets you quickly and cheaply get the main structure framed in and dry before adding the timber frame interior later. And the timber frame portion isn't entirely superfluous so it isn't as corny as just nailing big posts to an existing wall. I also tend to work by myself and this method would make that doable.

I'm finishing up a 1200 sq ft. wood shop now. I tried to use as much of my own lumber as possible. It really paid off for the 8x8 and 8x10 posts and ridge beam. Not so much payback in wall studs but since I was cutting my own it made the decision to build with 2x8 rather than 2x6 an easy one and it felt good. The spruce board and batten siding has been a lot of work from start to finish but again feels worth it.

It was a nice change however to order in a pallet of 18' select structural 2x10s for the rafters and just pull boards off the stack rather than sawing them out. I can't mill that long and don't have any trees around here that could provide that length and quality of lumber anyway.

When planning to build my first house (didn't own a mill then) I fixated on the cost of the framing lumber since it seemed like the biggest component and was the easiest thing for a newbie to latch onto. When I got done I realized the lumber that went into the frame was a small fraction of the overall cost. I think from a practicality standpoint it makes perfect sense to buy the basic framing members from the lumberyard and only mill out the more expensive specialty items (large posts/beams, siding, and specialty flooring or trim). But just because it's practical doesn't mean I do it that way, or that you should either. :)

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

Offline Don P

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2019, 12:00:23 PM »
The biggest bang for the buck IMO is a heavy timber roof, the walls get lost in the clutter.
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2019, 01:45:57 AM »
This is a complex question.  In general I'll say that a timberframe costs more time and money.  Sometimes considerably more depending on how elaborate and creative you decide to be, which materials and systems you chose to finish the house.  You may choose one way with a timberframe and another system if you are stick framed. 

Are you counting the cost of timbers and your labor and supplies to mill them?  Are you cutting the joinery yourself and are you counting that in your comparison?  One thing to consider for either method is - do you have the space to store materials and work?  The timberframe will take you longer and you really should do it under roof.  If you're doing it by yourself over time, you need a good dry place to store your timber.  You timberframe with green timber. You don't kiln dry if you're using your own wood.  

One other issue is that your project size could grow as  you start your timberframe.  We tend you realize that we really need more space than that original 1200 sq ft.  So you end up adding  timberframed shed roofs, decks etc.  Will the garage be TF as well?  You can do anything you want, as long as you're ok with the time it will take.  If you're doing it over a few years, it might be best to air dry your timbers for 1-2  years before cutting joinery so that they can get a lof of their moving done first.  

Lastly, there are some pitfalls to watch out for in Timberframing, so definitely use the experience here and through an engineer who is well versed in timberframing - like Firetower Engineered timber.  If you get saved on a pitfall, it could really save you money, time, etc.  If people can find issues before you build it, it would sure save you a lot of work and hassle.  Just a couple of my tips are: 1)Do not make rafter tails to through the envelope wall.  Instead bold on separate rafter tails on the outside as trying to seal the envelope with rafter tails sticking through is a nightmare.  2) Don't cheap out on wall/roof thickness and insulation.  I personally like sips on the roof, and 2x6 walls with a 1.5-2" layer of closed cell spray foam, then open cell spray foam to fill the rest of the cavity(Professionally installed by sub contractor).  3)Use Rock wool insulation batt on the interior walls.  It's great insulation and great sound deadening. That's just a sampling.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Don P

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2019, 07:34:02 AM »
Quote
 You timberframe with green timber. You don't kiln dry if you're using your own wood.  

 If you're doing it over a few years, it might be best to air dry your timbers for 1-2  years before cutting joinery so that they can get a lof of their moving done first.  
He has a vac kiln, what is the objection?
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2019, 07:43:11 AM »
Even with a true vacuum Kiln, will it dry an 8x8 Hardwood timber?  My understanding is that it is not practical to do so and I'm not even sure if it can really truely extract properly from a hardwood timber like oak?  Not sure if they have oak avail up there, maybe birch or maple or Ash?  If money is an issue, can he afford to tie up the kiln that long for this?  I'd think he's got to keep it making money to pay for itself/generate money?

Why try to dry hardwood timbers, when you don't need to?  Of course I'm assuming he's going to use hardwood.  Maybe I'm wrong?  I think they probably have both hardwoods and softwoods in Ontario.  

Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Don P

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2019, 08:29:48 AM »
For the building the closer to in service moisture content the better.
A laborer works with his hands
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An artist uses his brain, his hands, and his heart

Offline Stephen1

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Re: New Home Build Pricing?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2019, 06:38:31 PM »
If I did TF it would be EWP as that is what we have a lot of around here.  I would have to buy the logs, ussually from a local arborist so there is a cost there.
I would not dry Timbers but definitly dry flooring, panelling, log siding.
I have been sawing 2x6 and 2x8 and have a nice stock pile, close to enough for what I need. The challenge with them is they have to be grade stamped and planed. 
My thought are I can saw the timbers, take them to my neighbour who can build me a kit using metal connectors, Timber Loc I believe. saves about 1/3rd the cost. I could also saw with carbide blades and save the planing cost of the Timbers.
The timbers and the frame are the engineered parts of the structure. No need to grade my 2x material, just purchase what ever grade lumber I need.
I can then use the 2x8 and 2x6 and a whole whack of red oak I have for trim, flooring, ceiling, and log siding to match the log cabin. I would send this material out to have it planed. The neigbour who would TF also has a Logosol planer. 
DonP , A good point about just do the Timber Roof, I will have vaulted ceiling and maybe even a Loft so the Timbers would stand out . Just buy the framing form the lumber store, 
Alan, the stick frame would work quickly and then put the TF roof on top. I can saw 18' but would not want to. I mostly saw by myself and there is no way I'm lifting 18' green 2x10" of the mill.
Brad, We have Oak, lots of Red Oak. It will dry the hardwood 8x8 it just takes time, in and out , in and out, you need to allow the moisture to move out from the center.  An RF kiln shines on the big thick timbers, but FOH. I like SIPs I have them on the cabin roof, with an ICF basement which I like. 
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor


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