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Author Topic: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting  (Read 9240 times)

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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2019, 09:10:59 AM »

Jemmy. Where are you located? I travel alot and may be able to come by and give you a hand with your circle saw of problems, I have been through it the last four years sawing with my frick, everything down to pouring the Babbitt mandrel bearings, and shimming the saw with paper, if your close to somewhere I may be I would be glad to swing by and lend a hand.
                      And I thought I was good.

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2019, 12:01:58 PM »
I am just south of Toledo, Ohio. I dont really have the mill to the point I want eyes on it yet. I have been so overwhelmed dealing with my chickens, work, and other irons in the fire, including other mill projects, to really dive into this thing yet again. I would not be apposed to having you look at it in its current condition, there is just a lot of work that needs to be done before, I think, I need any experienced eye. I would benefit greatly from another set of eyes, I just want to maximize my time with someone if they do make it out.  Ive got a bit of debacle going on with my chickens that will take me a few weeks if not months to figure out so they are my current focus. The punch list for this mill has gotten longer and longer the more I sat and started writing things out, thank you, and everyone else, for the offers. Im probably a month away from the mill being ready for eyes, but we shall see, i said that like a month ago ::)
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2019, 05:56:37 AM »
I did the paper shimming.  All it means is that you probably should have your collars turned.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline 03westernstar

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2019, 08:27:26 PM »
I did the paper shimming.  All it means is that you probably should have your collars turned.  
Yep Collars needed turning, I made a jig and turned them myself, but the paper is a really good diagnostic tool or to buy some time and cheap too.

Offline 03westernstar

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2019, 08:36:07 PM »
I am just south of Toledo, Ohio. I dont really have the mill to the point I want eyes on it yet. I have been so overwhelmed dealing with my chickens, work, and other irons in the fire, including other mill projects, to really dive into this thing yet again. I would not be apposed to having you look at it in its current condition, there is just a lot of work that needs to be done before, I think, I need any experienced eye. I would benefit greatly from another set of eyes, I just want to maximize my time with someone if they do make it out.  Ive got a bit of debacle going on with my chickens that will take me a few weeks if not months to figure out so they are my current focus. The punch list for this mill has gotten longer and longer the more I sat and started writing things out, thank you, and everyone else, for the offers. Im probably a month away from the mill being ready for eyes, but we shall see, i said that like a month ago ::).
I am headed to Salt lake City,UT in October for a Business/Pleasure trip my shortest route from Northern,VA is through northern Ohio, If you dont get it strait by then I could stop by, if your worried about what it looks like you should see my mill :D 

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #85 on: December 25, 2019, 07:12:25 PM »
Update:
Well I need to walk the tracks, set the cart back down retention the cable one more time (haha) and sharpen my teeth then I believe I am to the point of starting the motor up. (I think) I replaced the cable. There was all kinds of problems with it before, so I hope that the replacement works as it should. That is the one part of the mill that I think I desire to operate flawlessly and any amount of doubt in that cable freaks me out. Today I secured the tracks sections that I finished a fair bit of fabrication on. I probably have one solid day of fabrication left. More of a much needed maintenance day, nothing technically needs done I believe. God has been kind here and allowed us to finish our roof and seemingly any major operations that need to happen to this mill. Its funny this has been the best weather we have had all year to get things done. There are a million fires in my life but atleast we have a roof and this mill will be to a point where it can be nailed down. I have made the decision to get a band mill. Dont know what kind I will be going with quite yet, i imagine most of you have seen both of these threads...

Questions:
1) Should I pull the teeth, or file/attempt to sharpen in place? They are currently kroiled and awaiting the adolescent ape named John to yank them out. 
2) Should I set the blade guide while running? Best/safest practice of doing this activity?
3) What is the best style of reading RPMs? I tried the laser RPM readers, two different kinds on multiple surfaces, they didnt work. They gave me crazy readings, maybe Im the crazy one, but it was suspect jumping from 200-1200 in a split second with no constant readings. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #86 on: December 25, 2019, 08:52:51 PM »
If you are running with an engine idle it with the saw turning and slowly speed up until the saw runs flat. That speed plus a little is where the saw has to run. I you go too far beyond this speed the saw will act up. A hand held rubber tip tach pushed in the shaft center is a good way to read the rpm. You never take the teeth out of the saw except to change them one at a time. The same with shanks.     Keep the guide pins [or blocks] about 1/8" away from the saw to begin with. After you get the saw behaving and sawing straight try to run them as close but not touching as you can.

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2019, 10:27:54 AM »
Moodnacreek, thank you! I found a nice digital display impact tach instantly upon some googling and now I know how I will be able to at least get reliable readings off the blade!!!! Thank you!!!! Well I will need to order that tach, but atleast today I can knock out of a few things. Im gonna weld, try and watch the blade stand up move the cart, and then I think I am going to weld for a while or start building a box around the pto. Also how should I attach a nob to hit gauge? Should it be a welded little nob like a spot weld or is there something that comes in the kit like the laser rpm gauges? Or jb weld/composite? 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline luap

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2019, 10:50:46 AM »
The tach gauges that I have used usually have an assortment of different shaped rubber tips to make contact with the end of the shaft being measured. The best being a v point that fits in a center drilled hole.

Offline Magicman

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2019, 12:25:07 PM »
Hold the tach tightly and proceed slowly as you make contact with the moving shaft.  Otherwise it will snatch it out of your hands and do bad things.  :-X
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2019, 03:57:01 AM »
Update:




I was hoping to just do some routine preliminary check ups (fluids) after setting the cart back down getting a lot of testing in on the blade/cart. Murphy's law reared its head a few times. The battery was dead, and it was touchy on getting it to roll over, even after pulling a f350 7.3.  Once it was fired up and warm we put it into gear and brought the cart back and forth a few times watching the cable system intently. There was a spot on the cart that was rubbing on the center threads of the blade that I ground down and thankfully it did not catch any more once it was under power. I spent a long time clearing the track, going through my head a million times just trying to make progress and making sure that the cart could make it down the tracks the tracks and nothing bad happen. Little things like tightening the cable system that last little bit or the tooth that i just put in for the first time. I yanked one successfully, then some were tough as heck and i stopped after I messed up a tool a little bit. But I got one out and put it down and kroiled the rest and I am gonna wait then prolly pull and sharpen them all eventually if not very soon. I have a 2x6 just to see whats going on once I figure out RPMs. 

Murphy's law kicked in immediately as I shook one piece of track and it shook loose then broke off in my hand. This happened around 11:30am. I set in and ground for a solid hour and half, welded for an hour or so just getting things tacked/slightly secured, started the Detroit, ran the cart welded 3hrs, sprayed the welds with rustoluem.  They had like 3 hours to dry should be getting an inch of rain. Feels good to be done with the ridiculous amount of welding that was duly needed on the mill and I got down a protective layer to boot. All things considered and the hoops jumped through it was a successful day that should allow this thing to start narrowing down the issues. I measured the distance from the face of the part of the cart the caries the log that established the thickness of the cut and that varied by a 1/4" across a 13ft span. 

Questions:

1) The distance from the teeth in the blade and the head block face is variant by 1/4" across the cart, will that mess up the lead, how to fix if so? Could this be the thing bogging my motor down? My idea is to weld a 1/4" steel plate to it. Bad idea?
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #91 on: December 29, 2019, 04:03:38 AM »
The tach gauges that I have used usually have an assortment of different shaped rubber tips to make contact with the end of the shaft being measured. The best being a v point that fits in a center drilled hole.
I do not understand how this would work. I understand something that that flicks something, like a nob, but how does one do what you are speaking about? Best practices? Im going to get a digital RPM impact gauge that will be pricey but worth the pain of knowing my RPMs, just need to understand what I need to do in order to prep for this gauge, and how I could also tack my Detroit too while I, at it.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Don P

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #92 on: December 29, 2019, 09:20:38 AM »
You can also put a magnetic tach on the mandrel shaft, something like one of these;
Hall Effect Tach

Your "cart" is the carriage, it sounds like the headblocks are not in line. Look to see if there is an adjustment, if not tacking a shim on the face will work.
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Offline luap

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #93 on: December 29, 2019, 12:30:51 PM »
This is an example of a hand held tach with the rubber tip held against the shaft.

 

Offline luap

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #94 on: December 29, 2019, 04:06:13 PM »
This is not the best picture but you can see the shaft that connects the three headblocks. It is a three piece shaft connected by discs with slotted holes. The bolts in the couplings can be loosened and each individual shaft rotated to bring each headblock in line. By stretching a string or wire the length of the carriage across the face of each headblock it is easy to see what movement needs

 to take place. Backlash in the gears should also be accounted for. 1/4 inch variance you describe is too much. Varience can also come from the tracks not straight or wheels on the carriage loose.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2019, 10:51:12 AM »
I've used a tach to give me my RPM on my shaft at the sawblade.  I've also used the digital photo laser tach that can measure at anytime, even sawing.  All the power units I've used had a tach built in or were run with a stop on the throttle.  That should set your running speed.  Most older mills had a saw speed 540 RPM.  

As for sawing, the best tach I used was my ear.  I could tell when my saw was running too slow or too fast by the sound of the saw in the wood.  As the saw speed drops during cutting, you'll want to back off in your cut.  Feeding too fast will cause a bunch of problems.  

What I'm reading is your headblocks don't line up quite right.  Depending on your mill, there may be different remedies.  As posted, some have ways to rotate the shaft a bit.  Make sure you loosen up all the shafts before adjusting.  Some headblocks have bolts on the top that can be loosened for the adjustment.  There may be some additional adjustment to make at the back end of the headblock.  All depends on the mfg.

To line up your headblocks, measure each headblock to the saw at the saw guide.  Adjust all to the same measurement and they should be in alignment.  The only thing that would make any difference is if the track isn't straight or if your trucks are loose or worn.  A crooked track will cause your headblocks to be out of alignment and cause the carriage to move in or out from the saw.  Loose or worn trucks may cause movement in the carriage.  
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2020, 05:10:28 PM »
Progress was made. That is all I can ask for. The previous owner did me the solid of coming to visit for the day. My RPM issues are no more. I now know how to make adjustments under full power. Thankfully the other laser RPM gauge in conjunction with new reflector strips allowed me to acquire constant and reliable readings. There is plenttyyyy of power in that screamer, I just need to make it really sing. I know which gear to use, (up and to the left) supposedly first. I put together how to move the head block before re-reading this thread.  I was then able to comprehend luap's post and thankfully I had that idea "all on my own". I believe the head block is off by one tooth. 

The biggest part of what I learned is setting the lead and overall setting of the saw/cart dynamic so the log can enter and move accordingly about. 

Setting the lead and the guides has been the biggest curve for me. The head block alignment issue feels as though it has contributed to this issue. The headblock that is recessed a tooth is in the middle. When the previous owner was here I had a log that stretched across all three headblock, thus avoiding the spacing issue of the center headblock being spaced back a tooth. The mill cut very good and everything seemed as though it should. After the previous owner left I wanted to try some and get through a decent log to start on my chicken house. It was about 20" across and 10' long. The first two cuts went ok, but the saw didnt seem like it reacted flawlessly. The third cut was something of nightmares. I couldnt tell if the saw, saw deck, or carriage/log was hopping, but something was moving in a direction that didnt not seem appropriate. The saw didnt start acting goofy until about halfway though the log, just before the headblock that is recessed. What is the appropriate action in this situation? Do you finish the cut? Or immediately pull back? My thought is/was finish the cut. So as the carriage proceeded down the tracks it began to slow, so I responded by pulling more on the lever. I ended up burying the lever in order to finish the cut, (please refrain from insults if this is insane, trust me this stuff feels alien currently and Im genuinely trying)... The cut finished and I wouldnt be surprised if my blade of some belt(s) arent as well. After the the cut I shut it down. I knew something was wrong. Im not a foreigner to that feeling. Metal deposits on the log thick enough to stick a refrigerator magnet to for over 2/3 of the log and the guide on the cupped side of the blade pushed in (or burned off i have no idea) a half inch. 

I havent checked the lead yet. But I assume that it is off. My theory is that that the headblock being recessed caused this mishap and once I fix it I should be able to able to set the lead and guides and be cutting again. As long as the blade is not ruined. 



 

What size collar do I need for 56" blade? Is this what is causing this issue? Etc

Why do collars need turned? What does turning do? Just balancing? Like balancing a tire with those weights? Or more along the lines of tolerances like thickness and what not?

All the photos I took in preparation for this post I lost and I have put off this post for a while so I am just getting what I can down for now. So I dont have photos of the lead setter (dont know what the technical term is for it) but my concern is how is it how is the blade secured if at all to the frame? It seems like two pieces of all thread are not adequate fasteners for this job.

Is a key way necessary for safety? I do not wish to die, but I dont want to undergo some large project for something that is not likely to ever be needed and some would argue not necessary. 

Should I weld on a knife behind the blade? (Dont know the technical term for that either)
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2020, 06:54:20 PM »
You rubbed the saw body. You can't do that. It would be best if you could get an experienced  sawyer to come over a few times and guide you through the learning process. There are several things that would cause that one being the log springing. The center headblock and it's dog are important here because they will show you the spring. By taking a slab and 2 board off 1 side most hardwood logs will spring. The heart wants to be centered as much as possible while the log is being sawn. This can mean turning 180 after each board is sawn off. Try to get someone to show you if possible. And the teeth need to be about perfect all the time.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2020, 01:17:47 PM »
Spring may be part of the problem, but if you're lead is off, you won't cut for very long.  Your saw got hot and laid over.  It opened up the eye and it got hot at the eye.  Worst place for heat as your saw loses the ability to stand up.  

Many factors at play.  Are the teeth okay?  If you're not careful, you can actually file lead into or out of a saw by having an angle across the front of the tooth.  Your saw will lead towards the long side of the tooth.  Dull teeth can also cause the same problem, especially if your feed speed is too fast.  Frozen logs or especially partially frozen logs can be a real problem with sawing.  Did you have sawdust cake to the side of the log?  I'm assuming that your saw is hammered for the RPM that you are running.  

The headblock being out of align is not a problem if it doesn't move.  Out of align headblocks will show the problem in the dog board or blocking.  It will be heavier at one end.  If your headblock is moving while the saw is in the log, then you will have problems.  I'm assuming that your track is straight.  If you have a hook in your track where you're carriage is running in an arc, you will have a bunch of problems.  Worn shanks can also cause sawdust to spill out of the gullets and between the saw and the log, causing the saw to heat up.  

It's not our style on the Forum to hurl insults at anyone.  You're looking for guidance and we're here to help.  I've set up several mills and sawed for 35 yrs.  I've had saws do the same thing as you have shown, more than once.  Things that I do to troubleshoot is to put new teeth in the saw.  That eliminates all problems arising from poorly sharpened teeth.  I check the lead.  You use the same tooth and the same headblock to measure front and back of the saw.  Saw guides should be loose so as not to push the saw.  Saw guide side should be less that board splitter side.  Otherwise you'll be running your log into the saw, and that heats it up.  

I always start with small logs to test things out.  You'll learn saw feed speed as you go.  Most guys saw a bit slower in larger logs.  If you saw too fast, your gullets will load up with too much sawdust.  That can push your saw off line.  When you get too much sawdust in the gullets, your saw will stop dead.  That's called a hung saw.  You have to shut down power ASAP.  

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline luap

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2020, 12:40:23 PM »
 When your saw moves off line and is rubbing, stop don't force it through. Check your lead since you said you had new teeth. No two saws will have the same lead. Not sure what you are referring to about the threaded rod holding the saw shaft. I assume each bearing will have a jack bolt on each side. Use both bearings to adjust . Picture the saw mandrel on a pivot centered between the bearings Don't just loosen the bearings and start pushing with the jack bolts. turn the jack bolts snug to the bearing bases and then loosen bearing hold down bolts.  Loosen the jack bolt on the side you want it to move to. This way its a controlled move in small increments. Even if you have self aligning bearings move both bearings, not just the one next to the saw. Turning the saw collars refers to truing up any runout the hub

 may have. Your saw collar should match the od of the saw hub on the mandrel . These are made with a shrink fit to the shaft so the only keyway will be on the pulley end.


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