The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts





Author Topic: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws  (Read 1679 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Thunderfist

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Location: Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« on: October 31, 2018, 10:23:17 AM »
I've always found so many great topics on this site when i'm searching for things on google so i just figured i would join.  I'm looking at getting a new saw and i was thinking about just getting a new 661, but i've been seeing all these kit saw reviews and i'm just curious if any professional guys out there actually use them and what the like/dislike about them.  And I would like to know any professionals that are familiar with them that don't use them, and why they don't use them.  So what say ye?
Tough Times Never Last, But Tough People Do.
-Robert H. Schuller

Offline weimedog

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
  • Location: CNY
  • Gender: Male
  • Better to be a "Has Been" than a "Never Been"!
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 11:06:47 AM »
I have two "pro's" who have my test saws in their set of saws that I consider relevant.. The one who uses them the most has three of my 660's and relegated them to "sectioning" and went back to his Husqvarna 385 HTSS for his main saw. We had to do debugging and then we had a bad cylinder that took out two cranks (rod bearings because the bore wasn't square and loaded the rod. ) ONCE we got through all that, about a years worth of R&D we had a reliable enough build to where the skidder killed them faster than they broke. THAT was the definition of win. But the combination for the "baggage" of doing all the R&D and seeing the failures to stupid stuff like bar studs eventually took its toll. And while they have been in steady use since this time last year, once he went back to the 385, just wasn't interested in the harder to start, more weight, and more vibration he had with the kit 660's. BUT like I said, they are still making chips, just not "favored" saws. Simply tools.

I do have a couple more out plus my own. "Test" program so I can get the trigger time on MY saws while someone else trys to get pyrotechnics on the kit saws.

I have documented what I learned in the video's, but the problem is I did the video's "real time" so the information and experience is spread out over a few. I never really did a "summary" , simply don't have the time and there were a few very significant changes to be considered for them to survive the day to day life of a constant user. SO bottom line to me is I have NOT seen a kit saw that as delivered or assembled strictly with the parts they come with survive pro use. I have seen and experienced a couple that after a lot of development & some parts swapped out are right now producing work in a "pro" world.

Also the "user friendly" aspect is more critical than total "power", funny thing is the "power" is fine, its the little stuff like starting, not stalling, chain brake and those things you have your hands on that have been where the hassle has been for the most part. Bar Studs, Clutches, Handle Bar (too soft), Choke/Trigger controls, Carburation, Chain brake melting then hanging on the muffler, stuff like that that kills the desire and patience to use them. Other that the two "blow ups", haven't had any hard parts fail. Those two crank failures had nothing to do with the parts in the kit saw either. It was a cylinder from yet another supplier that caused the failure.

Hope that helps.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Offline HolmenTree

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4175
  • Age: 62
  • Location: Manitoba
  • Gender: Male
  • "Been there, done that........and still learning"
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2018, 11:36:12 AM »
Welcome to the forum Thunderfist.

Like weimedog says about skidders and saws I had a few of those experiences. 
Back in 1986 at 4 feet high I borecut and stuck my brand new Stihl 064 with heated handles in a tree and went to our portable lunch shack. Went back to work and found thanks to my rookie skidder operator half of the saw on the ground, other half still in the tree.

I have no experience with these kit saws but did see a guy down in Mexico cut with a Chinese clone copy of a Stihl MS360.
From what I could see it was hard starting and didn't run very good .



 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4666
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2018, 11:57:43 AM »
The chinese sure are targeting every possible thing capitalist countries can manufacture lately huh?  
Revelation 3:20

Offline HolmenTree

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4175
  • Age: 62
  • Location: Manitoba
  • Gender: Male
  • "Been there, done that........and still learning"
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2018, 12:50:06 PM »
Yup, hopefully Trump stays in and we won't have to worry about the Chinese anymore. 
But buy all the cheap stuff you can for now. :D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline Thunderfist

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Location: Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2018, 01:30:03 PM »
Thanks for the feed back weimedog and holmentree! I appreciate the responses.  Yea i've got mixed feelings on them.  Thats why i wanna hear some other educated opinions. A part of me wants a nice saw that i can pass down to my sons one day, and another part of me wants something I don't mind abusing a little bit.  I just miss the old school saw era, but i do like the performance of the new saws today.  

As for the Chinese.... I'm not so sure i would call Germany or Sweden Capitalist countries either.... But they make nice chain saws and equipment.
Tough Times Never Last, But Tough People Do.
-Robert H. Schuller

Offline motzingg

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2018, 04:55:36 PM »
Don't get much more capitalist than copying our stuff, knocking it off cheap and selling it back to the same dummies you stole it from.  They wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't a market for it!  Also, i'm pretty sure Trump says he wants to get rid of all the tariffs, or add more? It changes depending on what you want to hear.  :D

I haven't owned any of these saws but i've worked on a lot of other china motor type stuff and its usually a combination of two things, 1) the parts are simply made to look like copies of the original and often don't have the right tolerance, finish, or metallurgy/heat treat of the original.  Sometimes they get pretty good, sometimes they are not.  #2 the guy (or gal) putting these together today was sewing buttons on shirts or picking strawberries yesterday, is getting paid a few bucks an hour and has to slam things together to make rate.  I'm sure there are plenty of skilled mechanics in China but more often than not, when you troubleshoot equipment from there that has failed, you find things like snap rings that didn't get set into grooves properly, cross threaded bolts, etc.  

Weimedog's experience could be mad lib-ed for any other piece of equipment from china i've worked on.  They can be serviceable if you take the time to go through them and set them up right, correct the mistakes, etc.  If you have to make your livelihood with a piece of equipment (and you can depreciate it on your taxes) i don't see any reason you wouldn't spend the big bucks. 

Offline weimedog

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
  • Location: CNY
  • Gender: Male
  • Better to be a "Has Been" than a "Never Been"!
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2018, 06:28:34 PM »
Don't get much more capitalist than copying our stuff, knocking it off cheap and selling it back to the same dummies you stole it from.  They wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't a market for it!  Also, i'm pretty sure Trump says he wants to get rid of all the tariffs, or add more? It changes depending on what you want to hear.  :D

I haven't owned any of these saws but i've worked on a lot of other china motor type stuff and its usually a combination of two things, 1) the parts are simply made to look like copies of the original and often don't have the right tolerance, finish, or metallurgy/heat treat of the original.  Sometimes they get pretty good, sometimes they are not.  #2 the guy (or gal) putting these together today was sewing buttons on shirts or picking strawberries yesterday, is getting paid a few bucks an hour and has to slam things together to make rate.  I'm sure there are plenty of skilled mechanics in China but more often than not, when you troubleshoot equipment from there that has failed, you find things like snap rings that didn't get set into grooves properly, cross threaded bolts, etc.  

Weimedog's experience could be mad lib-ed for any other piece of equipment from china i've worked on.  They can be serviceable if you take the time to go through them and set them up right, correct the mistakes, etc.  If you have to make your livelihood with a piece of equipment (and you can depreciate it on your taxes) i don't see any reason you wouldn't spend the big bucks.
Yup, I guess from the "Pro" point of view, time is money. The time spend debugging a saw could be used making money elsewhere. AND every time it stops and you walk out of the woods to fix the thing..that MORE money left on the ground. IF it's a hobby, then the process can be a lot of fun, but it takes a mind set that's not typical of a logger type short on time. The money spent on a good Stihl or Husqvarna is money WELL spent for the pro, along with the corporate and dealer support; not having to re-invent the wheel every time you get a different saw is worth the extra cost...a no brainer in my most humble opinion.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Offline Chop Shop

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2018, 08:52:10 PM »
Why do you want a 661?   Are you cutting big timber regularly or do you just want a big manly saw?

Cutting with an 066,660,661 is not pleasant.  Its heavy, eats lots of fuel, its heavy, it weighs allot, its got lots of teeth to sharpen, its heavy and it weighs allot.

99 percent of the stuff I used to fall with an 066 I will just grab the 046 instead.

If your a guy cutting mostly firewood then your sons spine will be happy you passed him down a 361 instead!

Offline HolmenTree

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4175
  • Age: 62
  • Location: Manitoba
  • Gender: Male
  • "Been there, done that........and still learning"
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2018, 09:11:51 PM »
My 066 hybrid is as light as your 046 :laugh:
14 lbs 9 oz= 14.56 lbs.


 

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline ButchC

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Fredericktown Ohio
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2018, 07:30:13 AM »
Don't get much more capitalist than copying our stuff, knocking it off cheap and selling it back to the same dummies you stole it from.  They wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't a market for it!  Also, i'm pretty sure Trump says he wants to get rid of all the tariffs, or add more? It changes depending on what you want to hear.  :D

I haven't owned any of these saws but i've worked on a lot of other china motor type stuff and its usually a combination of two things, 1) the parts are simply made to look like copies of the original and often don't have the right tolerance, finish, or metallurgy/heat treat of the original.  Sometimes they get pretty good, sometimes they are not.  #2 the guy (or gal) putting these together today was sewing buttons on shirts or picking strawberries yesterday, is getting paid a few bucks an hour and has to slam things together to make rate.  I'm sure there are plenty of skilled mechanics in China but more often than not, when you troubleshoot equipment from there that has failed, you find things like snap rings that didn't get set into grooves properly, cross threaded bolts, etc.  

Weimedog's experience could be mad lib-ed for any other piece of equipment from china i've worked on.  They can be serviceable if you take the time to go through them and set them up right, correct the mistakes, etc.  If you have to make your livelihood with a piece of equipment (and you can depreciate it on your taxes) i don't see any reason you wouldn't spend the big bucks.
Yup, I guess from the "Pro" point of view, time is money. The time spend debugging a saw could be used making money elsewhere. AND every time it stops and you walk out of the woods to fix the thing..that MORE money left on the ground. IF it's a hobby, then the process can be a lot of fun, but it takes a mind set that's not typical of a logger type short on time. The money spent on a good Stihl or Husqvarna is money WELL spent for the pro, along with the corporate and dealer support; not having to re-invent the wheel every time you get a different saw is worth the extra cost...a no brainer in my most humble opinion.
Those two statements pretty well summerise my experience with clone saws, or for that matter anything else from the land of almost right.
If one heads into a clone saw deal thinking he has pulled one over on Stihl Or Husqvarna  he will likely be disappointed.
I look at such things as objects to keep nervous fingers busy but if dollars spent are the prime motivation I am left to wonder if a person has the time an skills to perfect a clone why said person would not just purchase  a well used example of the real deal, tear it down and  fix it? ???
But that's just me,personally I am waiting on them to clone Wild Things, at 30% of OEM they ought to be around $35.  I need another loaner saw.
Peterson JP swing mill
Morbark chipper
Shop built firewood processor
Case W11B
Many chainsaws, axes, hatchets,mauls,
Antique tractors and engines, machine shop,wife, dog,,,,,that's about it.

Offline ButchC

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Fredericktown Ohio
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2018, 07:34:54 AM »

Sorry,messed up somehow and duplicated my post
Peterson JP swing mill
Morbark chipper
Shop built firewood processor
Case W11B
Many chainsaws, axes, hatchets,mauls,
Antique tractors and engines, machine shop,wife, dog,,,,,that's about it.

Offline Thunderfist

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Location: Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2018, 08:38:12 AM »
Why do you want a 661?   Are you cutting big timber regularly or do you just want a big manly saw?

Cutting with an 066,660,661 is not pleasant.  Its heavy, eats lots of fuel, its heavy, it weighs allot, its got lots of teeth to sharpen, its heavy and it weighs allot.

99 percent of the stuff I used to fall with an 066 I will just grab the 046 instead.

If your a guy cutting mostly firewood then your sons spine will be happy you passed him down a 361 instead!
Well..... I don't do a ton of chainsaw work but the work that I do is on fairly large Oak Trees.   And I really want to be able to turn a longer bar.  I'm not saying that the 461 or 362 Couldn't do it I just like the 661. I don't think the smaller ones would turn a 32+in. bar as well as the 661. And since there is less than a pound difference between the 461 and 661.... why not go with the bigger one?  
And i'm not opposed to finding a used one and putting some work into it. But there is the time factor in actually finding one. Then fixing it, and knowing it has no warranty and now its hand hands laid on it. Its just kinda a roll of the dice on reliability because there just aren't hundreds of them here locally for sale and I'm going to want to see it and test it myself before I throw some money at it. I think it would be more reliable than a clone saw or kit saw based off previous comments, but I'm not sure if its reliable enough for what i want it to be you know?
Also I know we are talking a lot about STIHL here but i'm not opposed to the Huskys either.  I've heard good things about Echo saws but there is only one descent dealer i can think of in the area.
Tough Times Never Last, But Tough People Do.
-Robert H. Schuller

Offline HolmenTree

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4175
  • Age: 62
  • Location: Manitoba
  • Gender: Male
  • "Been there, done that........and still learning"
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2018, 09:04:51 AM »
661 should last you a lifetime if you're not making a living with it , money well spent but is about 2 lbs heavier then a 461.

My 066 I bought brand new 26 years ago, made my living with it and just put new bearings in it for the 1st time 5 months ago. P/C still good.

Oh BTW it used to be as heavy as a 661, but now down to the weight of a 461 :)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline ButchC

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Fredericktown Ohio
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2018, 09:52:33 AM »
I have owned a 661 for close to 10 years and a 461 since last summer. That 2 lbs difference feels like 10 when your felling or working on a hill side or stumbling through mud. The 461 gives you about 95% of the 661 performance in real world cutting. Realize I am 62 and  that makes a difference too.

Most people that get into saws tend to over estimate needs, I am as guilty as anyone of that ;D   A person needs to be in a lot of very large wood or milling to "need" a 661 however wanting is another subject in it's entirety of which I am guilty as charged.  You wont be disappointed with  a 661 purchase,, unless somebody loans you a 461 ;D ;D
Peterson JP swing mill
Morbark chipper
Shop built firewood processor
Case W11B
Many chainsaws, axes, hatchets,mauls,
Antique tractors and engines, machine shop,wife, dog,,,,,that's about it.

Offline lxskllr

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
  • Age: 51
  • Location: MD USA
  • Gender: Male
  • dummy with saw
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2018, 10:43:42 AM »
My 60cc saw gives me a surprising workout. It seems the mass increases as it consumes fuel  :^D

In any case, I think 20cc increments(eg 30cc-50cc-70cc) is a good saw strategy, and I'd push bars lengths either way to make up the difference if wasn't something I was doing all day, especially as an amateur where time != $. Dragging too heavy a saw gets kind of old, and I'd rather spend a few extra seconds in the cut.

Offline motzingg

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Any Pro's using Kit Saws or Clone Saws
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2018, 12:43:51 PM »
Oh BTW it used to be as heavy as a 661, but now down to the weight of a 461


Dang that is a lot of piston and cylinder wear! 


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Clone saws.

Started by Phil_Oz on Chainsaws

9 Replies
4209 Views
Last post April 13, 2019, 10:03:46 PM
by Craig_S
xx
A case for old Vintage Homie & Mac saws vs. new home owner grade saws..

Started by weimedog on Chainsaws

22 Replies
2291 Views
Last post November 25, 2013, 09:01:56 AM
by Bret4207
xx
Cordless / Battery powered poles saws as "general" yard / home owner saws?

Started by weimedog on Chainsaws

0 Replies
239 Views
Last post July 29, 2019, 09:01:02 AM
by weimedog
xx
Why the big saws

Started by CX3 on Chainsaws

74 Replies
14249 Views
Last post January 18, 2011, 08:02:33 PM
by SwampDonkey
 


Powered by EzPortal