Excavator or bulldozer for road building

[Skeans1]

I think that what verifies you made a wise iron purchase is how much you use the thing.  A big ticket item that sits is foolish unless youre trying to generate more deductions than income.  If you need water line trenched one time, rent or contract it because a trencher is so single purpose itll hardly ever get used.  Trenchers and sweepers were the most commonly scrapped low hour machine ive witnessed working at the scrapyard .. Because they are so single purpose.  They sit a ton, their maintenance is neglected, they rust solid and no one wants it so off they go.  


Getting back to the point here.  Versatility is key to putting hours on a machine and thus making money with it.  The road is a necessary evil to access the timber. But the timber getting from the stump onto the truck is your bread and butter and the more an integral part a machine is to the bread and butter, the better you will service it and the better it will service you.   Which machine will serve double duty the most efficiently in your operation AFTER the road is built?  

Is your ground seasonally swampy and your crew running grapple skidders?  LGP dozer with a winch or swingboom can build road and then on rainy days do short skids from stump to firm ground to feed the grapples.  Dozer is also a nimble pusher for stuck log trucks.  I shuffle parked trailers with my blade all the time.

Is your knuckleboom or loader buried in piles at a bunksaw and a chore to walk over for loading trucks?  Maybe an excavator makes more sense with a thumb to help backup the primary loader or shovel feed wood from piles the skidders drop, over to your bunksaw operator.. Or maybe put on a dangle link and rotator grapple to help on the landing with sorts or truck loads.  The thumb can be used as a heel rack and a selector valve to take fluid off the thumb for rotator.  Curl cylinder runs grapple.  


Buy the machine that is least likely to get parked after the road is built, and tolerate whatever small shortcoming it has with respect to roadbuilding.  Itll be different for everybody.

We have a track skidder they aren't made to push road, the blade angle isn't right or as strong as a standard cat let alone with a high track machine the sprocket and weight is in the wrong location. The best setup single guy operation I've seen around here it looked goofy but he had a 18" cab riser on a 250 machine with a lift block under the boom, manual quick change with a bucket, heel rack grapple, then a different heel with a processor to pull double duty cutting and processing at the landing.

[erin]

To answer maple flats question.
The property is 100 acres of pine/mixed hardwood and there is only one place where you can get in to the back half of it, it has a lot of rocky ridges and swampy holes so theirs quite a few places that are winter access only. I call it extreme cause theirs a lot of places I cant take the Clark.
thanks E.

[bushmechanic]

By far the excavator is the better machine for road building. If you don't ditch your road where is the water going? All roads around here that were made with dozers are trouble, water sitting in the road and making mud and potholes. If your just making a haul road for equipment I guess anything will do lol.

[Southside]

A part of the equation also is just what do you call a road?  In my mind it's 4 season use and 45 MPH is no problem with a loaded truck, well crowned and ditched, graveled or shaled, obviously they are permanent or semi permanent.  Secondary surfaces we called access roads, might get used for a harvest season then not used again for several years, they could be brought back when needed without completely rebuilding them, those many times were built with just a dozer and are one step above a twitch trail as they go from the road to the landing basically. 

[longtime lurker]

I think that what verifies you made a wise iron purchase is how much you use the thing.  A big ticket item that sits is foolish unless youre trying to generate more deductions than income.  If you need water line trenched one time, rent or contract it because a trencher is so single purpose itll hardly ever get used.  Trenchers and sweepers were the most commonly scrapped low hour machine ive witnessed working at the scrapyard .. Because they are so single purpose.  They sit a ton, their maintenance is neglected, they rust solid and no one wants it so off they go.  


Getting back to the point here.  Versatility is key to putting hours on a machine and thus making money with it.  The road is a necessary evil to access the timber. But the timber getting from the stump onto the truck is your bread and butter and the more an integral part a machine is to the bread and butter, the better you will service it and the better it will service you.   Which machine will serve double duty the most efficiently in your operation AFTER the road is built?  

Is your ground seasonally swampy and your crew running grapple skidders?  LGP dozer with a winch or swingboom can build road and then on rainy days do short skids from stump to firm ground to feed the grapples.  Dozer is also a nimble pusher for stuck log trucks.  I shuffle parked trailers with my blade all the time.

Is your knuckleboom or loader buried in piles at a bunksaw and a chore to walk over for loading trucks?  Maybe an excavator makes more sense with a thumb to help backup the primary loader or shovel feed wood from piles the skidders drop, over to your bunksaw operator.. Or maybe put on a dangle link and rotator grapple to help on the landing with sorts or truck loads.  The thumb can be used as a heel rack and a selector valve to take fluid off the thumb for rotator.  Curl cylinder runs grapple.  


Buy the machine that is least likely to get parked after the road is built, and tolerate whatever small shortcoming it has with respect to roadbuilding.  Itll be different for everybody.

I'm going to give this a +10, because its about the answer I'd have given with a few caveats.

Look the common answer is go get a digger - it can do everything kinda sorta almost half well. Because it can. And I'd also say if I was playing swamp loggers it would be my choice because between the ability to feel ahead for soft ground with the boom and lay material perpendicular to the tracks to raft you can get further into a swamp before getting hopelessly bogged then any LGP dozer ever will. And armed with a rotating grapple they are a good loader, within their lift constraints anyway.

Now a dozer - a logging dozer - is just a two trick pony. It can push, and it can pull. But it does those things exceedingly well, far better then any excavator - or any other machine come to that - in the same weight class. What you cant do with a digger is haul logs to a landing, or a place where a skidder might have half a hope of arguing with them. And a dozer will cut a road down a slope in about  1/4 to 1/3 the time that an excavator will. Thats what dozers are for.... pushing (and pulling).

Which is better will depend on the place. Big logs mean dozers. Swamps mean excavators. Big logs in a swamp mean you need to do some thinking on the merits of competing heavy lift helicopters*laff*



 

 

My choice every time is a dozer... I am less concerned with versatility then that it can do what I need it to do exceeding well at the lowest possible unit cost.

[PA_Walnut]

I think it depends on what "extreme terrain" really is. I cut a road across my extreme terrain that I began with my tractor with a bucket and hoe. It was tedious and inefficient. Got an excavator and WOW...2 days later had it made.
I'd rather not use my backhoe again. :( 

[mike_belben]

We have a track skidder they aren't made to push road, the blade angle isn't right or as strong as a standard cat let alone with a high track machine the sprocket and weight is in the wrong location.

I wasnt made to push road either but ive been out there with a shovel in the rain more than a few times chippin away.  If you want it bad enough youll make do with whatever you can get your hands on.  

[hyperviktor]

Slightly old thread but hopefully will pickup .. I have a similar question as the original poster but with a few more details.

I try to decide what's best for making a few small path / access road etc. on our land ( high altitude a foothills in Colorado ) - it's scattered with Pinyon pines and has loads of rocks, larger ones are about a size of a football or a bit bigger, nothing you couldn't pick up really. 

I was initially thinking of a bulldozer but our access road is on a slope and it's rock / gravel only and it seems I may be better of getting an excavator to do the job.

We'd also need to remove a couple trees - including stump as well - any ideas would be very useful. 

Here are two images to show what the land looks like where I need work done.



 

 

[luap]

My son recently purchased 160 acres of clear cut aspen where the largest tree is 6" diameter and thickly spaced. He started hand clearing some atv trails but decided he needed something more. He rented an e55 bobcat machine with thumb and really went to town.The thick overgrown saplings are no match for it and he has also cut some ditches to help dry the  some low spots. As mentioned the wet clay ground does not smooth out. It should be better to work after it has a chance to dry. He has now purchased a low hour Kubota with a six way blade in same weight class as the bobcat and we are eagerly awaiting delivery.

[hyperviktor]

We have some big old Pinyons but I also need to make some road, do some ground work ... I've red through the posts and so far it seems to me I'm better off with the excavator. I was just wondering if there were any specific pros or cons on the terrain I've posted earlier.

I didn't dig deeper then 2 feet to see the ground but it's just rocks and sand, maybe a bit loamy but definitely dry.

The most important pro to use a bobcat that it's smaller so I can probably get away removing less trees overall especially for a few smaller path.



Can wait to get there with the right machine and do some real work though :Dhere is 

[Raider Bill]

Just my .02 from almost no experience but Bull Dozing is FUN! Dozing trees down is FUN!

Unloading the beast!



 
Putting in the road to new house site.


 



 

Watching the Fire Dept put the burning dozer out.

:D :D :D

[hacknchop]

Yikes !!!!:o:o I hate it when that happens.

[Old Greenhorn]

Watching the Fire Dept put the burning dozer out.

:D :D :D

I just went back and read that old thread again. You told that story so well, what a hoot!

[snobdds]

Slightly old thread but hopefully will pickup .. I have a similar question as the original poster but with a few more details.

I try to decide what's best for making a few small path / access road etc. on our land ( high altitude a foothills in Colorado ) - it's scattered with Pinyon pines and has loads of rocks, larger ones are about a size of a football or a bit bigger, nothing you couldn't pick up really.

I was initially thinking of a bulldozer but our access road is on a slope and it's rock / gravel only and it seems I may be better of getting an excavator to do the job.

We'd also need to remove a couple trees - including stump as well - any ideas would be very useful.

Here are two images to show what the land looks like where I need work done.



 

In your situation I would use a bulldozer.  In fact, I think a bulldozer is the ideal machine for most road building projects.  It can't be a big one though, I've seen a D4 make more forrest road than anything.  The key to a dozer is the adjustable blade that can pivot in both the Y and X axis (up, down and side to side).  Then you can cut in your ditches first and set the grade last, work out to in. The dozer is far superior to keeping a consistent grade and can cut in water bars if needed. 
The excavator does work, I have done it, but its slow.  Too much time to make ditches and then it's hard to get a good crown.  

[Oddman]

I have doubts that a person that's asking these sorts of questions has the operating experience enough to use either one to get done what they need. Now 2 guys pontificating upon the pros and cons of each is one thing but we're talking about a whole other thing when somebody is actually going to perhaps base their decision to purchase a piece of heavy equipment based off internet chatter...maybe they should consider hiring the job out and learning a bit first-hand from watching the job get done right by a pro.

Btw, I'm not a pro equipment operator but I have several in the family and have been around and on this equipment enough to know there are many things that should be done by those that have real experience...especially in places termed "extreme".

[hyperviktor]

Hi Oddman,

I'm only thinking which one to hire ( with operator of course ) - I am not qualified to operate these machines. But I want to be able to enter a conversation with anyone offering one or the other or maybe both and it's good to see opinions from well qualified people.
With at least some knowledge about the topic I can shop around and maybe find a guy with his own bulldozer instead of going to a company who would charge much more for the same job.

[Bruno of NH]

I can run equipment some but nothing beats an experienced operator.
I have learned to say uncle and have one of my operator friends come in when I want it done fast.
Time is money.
You should be able to find a one man show with an excavator. 

[Oddman]

Hi Oddman,

I'm only thinking which one to hire ( with operator of course ) - I am not qualified to operate these machines. But I want to be able to enter a conversation with anyone offering one or the other or maybe both and it's good to see opinions from well qualified people.
With at least some knowledge about the topic I can shop around and maybe find a guy with his own bulldozer instead of going to a company who would charge much more for the same job.

Hyperviktor - 
I would be more concerned with the operator you hire than the machine. Honesty, knowledge/experience, and concern with making you satisfied as a customer would be harder to find and more important than which machine. A *good* operator could do the work you need with a dozer, excavator, or possibly large tracked skid. Some guys are just plain good on one machine and not very on another. There's a lot of overlap in capabilities between machines and a lot of ways to get things done and done well - all depending on the operator. 
So if possible, ask around and get a lead on a good dirt work man or small company, the good ones are usually backed up with work but worth the wait. And from what I could see in your pics, looks like a job for a dozer. 

[hyperviktor]

The only part I'm unsure about is the access road we have - it's a quarter mile and it's rocks only - from egg sized pebbles to size of a football. Can a bulldozer work with that ? I need to flatten the surface, I'm thinking of getting maybe a truck load of gravel, that could do the trick.

[Oddman]

That's dozer work man...1/4 mile would take multiple truck loads of gravel. Get a pro to look over the job and give you some direction.

[SwampDonkey]

Around here, all mill ground and public land is excavator roads and maybe a dozer for levelling out. Best roads ever, nice ditch, no piles of stuff pushed up along the road, nice clean work area when done. Dozer roads I have experienced is just ditches of water with big wind rows of mud and stumps to the sides. Not fun to work around. We have areas of glacial sand several feet thick or loam and hard pan with clay and gravel mix that will turn to soup in heavy rain, so you need a dry road, not a mud dike. :D Rocky surfaces need a dozer to flatten it out good, but if it is bouldery you gotta have an excavator to fill between the rocks or your just rolling rocks around. I've travelled on bouldery roads where tires roll over one boulder to the next, glacial sand in between. :D

[hyperviktor]

Oddman - here's a picture, not great but shows roughly what it's like. It's not a bad road at the moment, I'd just need to get bigger holes filled to make it even and I guess then run a dozer through to grade it. What do you think ?

 

[Ed_K]

 Yes! Get a dozer in there an get it done. In my youth I could level an ditch that type of surface in no time with a d6 cable. What I see there if your going all the way to that hill in the distance it may take a few days to get it done.

[hyperviktor]

No ,just until where there are a few bushes on the road, basically the part where it gets steeper. The whole road is probably a few miles, I only need to deal with the first 1/4 mile, there's our land. And if I buy the one next to ours than probably half way is enough, that would be around 200 yards or so.

[Ed_K]

 Day's work for a good operator.