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Author Topic: Am I getting ripped off?  (Read 3218 times)

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Offline Nick585

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Am I getting ripped off?
« on: November 13, 2018, 08:54:07 PM »
I am a professional arborist but an amateur logger.  I am in the midst of my first Black Walnut log sale.  Nothing under 12 and nothing under 8ft length.  No crotch pieces and no metal.  He is offering me $8600 for 3800 bd ft.  All were individually scaled by this log buyer.  I asked him to see the scale sheet and just said No.  Is this normal?  Am I getting ripped off?  

Offline Southside

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2018, 09:14:24 PM »
What species of logs are you talking about?  I am assuming Walnut given those numbers.  Would need a lot more information about the size of the logs, defects / quality, your location.  The scale sheet statement is off setting, but without the whole picture it is hard to tell.  Can you scale the logs yourself and come up with a volume?  Do you have a spec sheet for the grades?  Are these yard trees?
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Offline sawguy21

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2018, 09:30:32 PM »
You are not getting 'ripped off'. Lowballed maybe but you need to get an accurate assessmentt of what the wood is worth. You then have the option of countering, if no agreement is reached you walk away. Can you reach other potential buyers in your area to see what they might offer?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 09:39:59 PM »
Yes Black Walnut.  I modified my comment.  If by yard trees you mean wooded lots on private properties yes.    Some of these 36 plus logs are old trees from the Finger Lakes.But no metal, zero bad color and I personally metal detected every inch.  I am having trouble learning how to grade logs.  I am eager to learn and for information.  I feel that I am at the mercy of someone who can easily exploit my inexperience.  Is it normal for a buyer to refuse to show a scale sheet?
You are not getting 'ripped off'. Lowballed maybe but you need to get an accurate assessmentt of what the wood is worth. You then have the option of countering, if no agreement is reached you walk away. Can you reach other potential buyers in your area to see what they might offer?

You are not getting 'ripped off'. Lowballed maybe but you need to get an accurate assessmentt of what the wood is worth. You then have the option of countering, if no agreement is reached you walk away. Can you reach other potential buyers in your area to see what they might offer?

Yes lowballed is certainly more accurate.  How do I better assess what the wood is worth?  Does a state forester only appraise standing timber?


Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 10:24:39 PM »
Post the best pictures you can of what youve got and guys here will toss out an opinion. 

This buyer.. Has he done any of the work or is he just making an offer on what you put on the landing?  Who pays the trucking and who loads the trucks?  3800bd ft in which scale?  Doyle?  

Paging @nativewolf 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Southside

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 10:25:56 PM »
@nativewolf has a lot of hands on knowledge when it comes to the walnut market, maybe he can chip in.  My yard tree question came up as a result of you stating you are an arborist, as in urban trees, ones removed from a back yard, yard grown walnut tends to have more sapwood and less heart wood in it impacting the value, and no matter what, they do have more metal, rocks, missing kids, etc in them than forest grown walnut.    
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM »
Id love to stuff my kid in a walnut tree some days 
Revelation 3:20

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2018, 11:27:43 AM »
Kid stuffed walnut is the most valuable!  

Hmm, post pictures.  Walnut graders are very very finicky.  End grain and a picture of log length.  $2.5/bdft is about average for run of the mill stuff.   Some guys try to low ball me, even though they know me.  I shake my head, shake their hand, tell them better luck next time.  

Get multiple offers.  3600 bdft is a full truck load so that's a great amount, one truck and they'll be full which is just how they want to run.  I'd get 2-3.  Walnut pricing is moving back up.

I recently sold 100 trees at @4/ft standing but they were nice trees indeed.  

16" on the small end is the magic number you are aiming to hit.  That's a make or break kind of size for higher pricing and it has to be inside bark on the small end of the log.  

If you need some buyers I can try to rustle some up for you, you are a few miles from home for me but I think there are a couple up there we have talked with this spring.  

Don't be in a hurry.  The phone is your friend now, the only thing you can do is get better pricing by getting more people to see the logs.   

The Canadian mills are buying on international scale and will send a truck, sort of guessing game but they'd pay same $/ft I think and you might have more footage.  
Liking Walnut

Offline Chop Shop

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2018, 12:29:37 PM »
Put them on CraigsList for $15,000.   Make up a story about them being urban reclaimed and that they are priceless special trees that can live on for eternity since you saved them from certain death at the local dump.
Then explain how you are not trucking them, have no way to load them  etc.

Thats what all the folks in my area do!

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2018, 04:24:13 PM »
Not long ago i saw a $500 "tree" for sale.  Or i guess there was one under the poison ivy blanket it was wearing.  

$50 a rick buddy.  If you cut split deliver and stack. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 08:45:30 PM »
Cant seem to upload to gallery.  Maybe I must be on a computer and not a tablet?  Pasted a link to an Imgur album I just created.  Here is just a handful of the logs in the pile.  What kind of grade am I looking at?


Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 08:45:50 PM »
--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/gallery/IQgDona[/url]

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 09:22:16 PM »






Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 09:23:30 PM »






Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2018, 09:24:53 PM »






Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 09:31:30 PM »
   I don't buy or sell logs and cannot say whether this is a good price or not. I would be concerned that he will not let you see the scale sheet. I don't see anything proprietary there. Maybe you just want to double check the math. My advice to anyone is do not deal with someone you do not trust or feel comfortable with. Good luck. 
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Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 02:13:28 PM »
Post the best pictures you can of what youve got and guys here will toss out an opinion.

This buyer.. Has he done any of the work or is he just making an offer on what you put on the landing?  Who pays the trucking and who loads the trucks?  3800bd ft in which scale?  Doyle?  

Paging @nativewolf
Pictures posted.  Doyle.   Logs are on a landing.  Buyer picks up.

Offline maple flats

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2018, 04:47:13 PM »
Maybe I missed it, but when you label on as 8' or 10' or whatever, are they just that long? Most mills want 6-8" over to be certain they can trim the lumber to an even length. Also, I hope the diameters are on the small end.
I see a few with a considerable curve, that make pretty lumber but fewer board feet, thus it is scaled lower.
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Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2018, 06:08:34 PM »
Maybe I missed it, but when you label on as 8' or 10' or whatever, are they just that long? Most mills want 6-8" over to be certain they can trim the lumber to an even length. Also, I hope the diameters are on the small end.
I see a few with a considerable curve, that make pretty lumber but fewer board feet, thus it is scaled lower.
Yes they are cut 8 over.  Diameters on small end.  How do you compensate for curve when scaling?  Is it a percentage of total board feet? Where can I learn these things?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2018, 06:52:49 PM »
Some will knock it down a grade, some will "pull it back" ie either pay you for a shorter length or smaller diameter to account for the loss.  


When you are bucking trees with crook and sweep you really have to get your logs from between then by cutting the crook out or putting half on this log and half on that.  Sweep is a bummer.  Good for boat builders, bad for most else. If there is a crook i start measuring from it first and dont cut anything until i have every cut figured.  Which stinks when youve got it down to say 3 logs just barely.. Cut one and its got a big ant tube or something with no slack to try trimming for a cleaner face.  Oh well, all parta the game. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2018, 05:26:37 AM »
As a buyer being asked to bid on a set of logs; I would not provide anything other than $$ total period. How I priced various grades or scaled individual logs could be advantageous for a competitor to know. I decline the opportunity to bid on logs or timber unless its a sealed bid . 

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2018, 09:59:51 AM »
   Our local mill publishes a price list showing what they pay for logs by species and grade. Of course there is always some subjectivity as to what grade a log will make but at least if I ask them to explain why they graded a log a particular way I can accept or reject their opinion. Most important the seller can learn what he needs to do better the next time. He might find he'd get more for 2 shorter (1- grade 1 and 1 grade 3) logs than one long grade 3. Just like sawing for grade. Maybe I just needed to leave 2 more inches of trim to qualify for the next length. 

   Your system is fair and no doubt saves you getting into an argument with a seller but, as I said before, if the seller does not feel comfortable in dealing that way, he should sell to someone else. To each his own.
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Offline stavebuyer

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2018, 06:57:59 AM »
I publish a price list and provide a detailed scale ticket that shows species, length, diameter, grade, volume, price per MBF, gross scale, defect scale and reason for any scale deductions for all logs purchased. You ask for a bid on a pile of logs I may or may not buy; you get a dollar figure and that's it unless I buy the logs or trees. As I buyer I can't tell you how many times a prospective seller has told me what they have already been offered. I participate in sealed bids, attend auctions, but have no interest in auctions disguised as bids. This is no reflection on the original poster or his motives but an explanation as to why a bidder often doesn't want to provide any details in a bid situation. 


Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2018, 07:41:49 AM »
I participate in sealed bids, attend auctions, but have no interest in auctions disguised as bids.


Amen brother! Preach it. Its very annoying when I am asked to buy logs, come up with a legit number (I always try to be VERY fair...to both the seller AND myself) and then have them say, "I'll get back to you..." using my number as leverage to attempt to yank $20 outta the next guy.  >:(

More than once, have endured that dance, only to have them come back weeks/months later with a re-attempt hearing about stories of BIG money payouts, BIG talk then zero performance from other bidders. I put up my best number and that's that. Every once in a while, someone comes back with a reasonable counter that accept.

As Kenny Rogers says, "You got know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away and know when to run..."

p.s. Don't alienate your seemingly legit buyer. If the number isn't right to you, counter rather than shutting him out for a few bucks. You may find that there's less legit buyers in your area than you might have guessed. A bit of communication goes a long way.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2018, 09:09:50 AM »
I done a lot of buying and selling on a semi professional level for myself and for others, and its really a relationship game.  

Buying and selling with the general public can be incredibly annoying on occassion, and tolerating their opinions and tactics without chewing them a new one and killing the sale is by far the most tedious part.  When you are selling theyll say these are a dime a dozen.  Really? Cuz i only see 2 for sale in the country and im priced cheaper than both.  Show me the dozen for scrap price and we will send the landoll to get them all.

When you are buying their junk is worth gold, its the best stuff ever sitting on those brand new 30yr old tires with only a few of the now obsolete parts missing and what is there fully unserviceable.  Buddy you been trying to sell it a year and the market clearly doesnt agree with your price.

I never ever tell people what its worth and i hate when someone says it to me.  Ill say what ive got in the past, what i think i can get, what its worth to me or what im holding out for.  As a buyer i very kindly, gently say this is what id be happy to pay for it or call me in a year if you decide youd take X.  Ya have to say an offensive number in a very unoffensive way.  3 days later phone rings.  You get 90% more accepted lowballs when the seller finds you likeable. Be a polite, friendly haggler.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Kwill

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2019, 01:27:05 PM »
Ya have to say an offensive number in a very unoffensive way.  3 days later phone rings.  You get 90% more accepted lowballs when the seller finds you likeable. Be a polite, friendly haggler.
I failed at this one. Guy tried to lowball or rather insult me on some firewood i already had priced at a bargain. I told him I would  pile it in the front yard and burn it before I took his offer. 8)
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2019, 08:30:31 PM »
   My most valuable load of firewood I ever sold was priced on the phone including delivery. I drove up with the wood and with my 10 y/o son along. The guy came out and told me because it was good seasoned oak he'd pay $10-$15 less than we'd agreed. I told my son to get back in the truck, raised the tail gate and before I got the truck cranked he told me he'd pay what we'd agreed and I told him he could not buy that load of wood. I guess he figured since I'd already loaded and delivered it I did not want to take it home. he was right. I stopped on the way home and gave it away to a friend.
Howard Green
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Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2019, 05:19:03 AM »
I told him he could not buy that load of wood. I guess he figured since I'd already loaded and delivered it I did not want to take it home. he was right. I stopped on the way home and gave it away to a friend.


@WV Sawmiller That is a level of rogue beyond even my own! Nice!!I like it.  :D:D
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2019, 11:25:22 AM »
Ya have to say an offensive number in a very unoffensive way.  3 days later phone rings.  You get 90% more accepted lowballs when the seller finds you likeable. Be a polite, friendly haggler.
I failed at this one. Guy tried to lowball or rather insult me on some firewood i already had priced at a bargain. I told him I would  pile it in the front yard and burn it before I took his offer. 8)
On a $60 rick of wood that will sell on the next cold day, chewing someone out may be worth it.  Its cheaper than the therapy costs of rude lowballers driving you crazy.  
When i sold ancient equipment for an employer it was really important not to burn bridges.  How many people want parts off a euclid articulated truck thats been parked since i was 9?  had to bite my tongue alot if i wanted to taste any food on it next week.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Kwill

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2019, 01:18:11 PM »
Mike i was recently trying to sell my boat on Cl and facebook for 500. This was boat, motor,trailer,trolling motor,fishfinder, and clean titles on all. Guy had the gaul to ask if id take 100 for it. I wasnt so nice with my reply 8)
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2019, 09:11:07 AM »
Imagine if it was 3am, the call was from egypt and he offered you $100 for your excavator.  I lived it every day.  You gotta find your uncouple button to survive it or youll kill someone. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Weekend_Sawyer

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2019, 09:19:07 AM »
I have started muting my phone when I go to bed.
I do not like to be awakened by someones text or phishing call.
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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2019, 08:29:51 PM »

Nick585,

What did you end up getting for you Black Walnut logs?
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