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Author Topic: Log cutting without sawing?  (Read 2751 times)

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Offline Francis Nabrink

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Log cutting without sawing?
« on: December 17, 2018, 09:33:49 AM »
I would like some ideas on log cutting. I am starting a business that would require almost 2 milion of logs cut every month, to be used in charcoal production. 
I am reluctant in using a saw, as I think that a lot of wood would go to waste. My plan is to use a straight blade and a hydraulic press. Do you know any place where a can look more about the subjetct?
To be clear, I need to cut the logs, not split it! 


Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 09:50:30 AM »
2 Million LOGS or 2 Million BF of lumber?
A straight blade on a hydraulic press is going to split the log, not cut it so I'm not sure what you are hoping for.  I don't think the charcoal will care if the wood is perfectly flat (split) like a board or rough. ;)
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 11:27:15 AM »
In small wood a shear isnt a bad option.  In big hardwood its wishful thinking.  The shear knife will need to be sloped to sever grain at an angle, not perpendicular to the grain.  Go play with a hatchet for a few minutes if you dont catch my drift.  

Imagine a conveyor with a sloped guillotine at the end.  Youd probably be miles ahead to start off with a good H frame press.  And i dont mean harbor freight, i mean Dake, et al.  A big one. Or a forklift mast reworked to hold a blade. There are several shear based homemade wood processors on youtube.  But most also partially split to enable the shearing.

The knife will need to be pretty thick plate sharpened good and probably with a hardface edge.  It cant be too wide or itll bow then die. And its gotta be held captive in some pretty stout tracks.  Youll want 4wire hoses, big cylinders a 2stage pump and splitter valve and a gauge on an adjustable secondary relief valve incase the one inside the pump fails! Its the kinda machine that can hurt somebody when it lets go. 
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2018, 09:06:55 AM »
Stop the presses ,hold the phone .Two million logs ? Is that being 16 footers or 16 inches long ?Old story .Henry Ford of model T fame was very frugal .Parts of the model T were made of wood ,obviously which left a lot of sawdust .It was waste and Henry couldn't stand for that.He devised a method to briquette the saw dust and make charcoal .He turned that part of the company over to his brother in law and that company today is called Kingsford . 8)

Offline Woodpecker52

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2018, 09:14:32 AM »
Thinks you need to use laser or aliens to help solve problems.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2018, 07:10:54 PM »
I'm guessing you are trying to chunk the material? If so that is what the wood gas guys do. Try looking up wood gas or producer gas and see what they are using to process their feedstock.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2018, 06:20:31 AM »
These little hardwood mills around here might have mountains of saw dust then all the sudden it's all gone .Charcoal,horse bedding I suppose .Kind of like the slaughter houses in Chicago decades ago .They used everything from the pig but the oink.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2018, 08:52:33 AM »
In my region the little mills burn it and the big ones have it trucked to the charcoal plant when theres enough for a few loads. 
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2018, 10:24:31 AM »
About 20-25 miles south of me ,Hoge Lumber in New Knoxville Ohio has a co-generation plant .Hoge is or was the largest supplier of bowling alley maple in the world .They just burn it with the scraps .
So they say sawdust is the most expensive to make and has the least returns it does have some commercial value .I'm still trying to make sense of the two million logs . ??? That's a lot of charcoal and most people have gas grills these days .

Offline Greyman

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2018, 02:08:10 PM »
We don't know where the OP is, I don't believe.  Most of the underdeveloped regions in the world use charcoal for cooking, leading to deforestation.  Solar, biogas, and high efficiency stoves are helping a lot though.

Offline Corley5

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 07:51:03 AM »
I vote for lasers
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Offline LeeB

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2018, 09:34:50 AM »
We don't know where the OP is, I don't believe.  Most of the underdeveloped regions in the world use charcoal for cooking, leading to deforestation.  Solar, biogas, and high efficiency stoves are helping a lot though.
When I first read the op I wondered where the guy was from and my first thought was from somewhere that might not have the equipment and resources to waste any materials. I also figured "logs" may indeed be small diameter stock.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2018, 07:21:40 PM »
I don't think we'll ever know on this one, looks like he last checked in 2 minutes after posting.
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Offline maple flats

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2018, 07:35:32 PM »
2 million logs is huge. But my brother uses 2 different shears to fell trees, one will cut 14" and the other 16". Both require high hydraulic pressure and to shear the harder woods it needs be be very high. He uses a tracked skid steer that does 2700 PSI or a 4x4 Bobcat Tool Cat that does 2900 PSI. At those pressures he has problems shearing the more dense woods at or near the max size of the shear he is using. Both shears can be rotated 90 degrees or more to shear blocks from the stem once on the ground.
To use the same equipment you would likely need more PSI than he has to shear the larger hard wood trees/logs.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed,  Peterson ATS upgraded to WPF mill, maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2018, 08:12:16 PM »
I don't think we'll ever know on this one, looks like he last checked in 2 minutes after posting.
Well sometimes on forums people don't stay too long --just saying

Offline Francis Nabrink

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2019, 10:46:20 AM »
First of all, sorry for disappearing! 

So to be more clear, I'm from Brazil and we use charcoal for iron and steel production, so that means a lot of charcoal made from Eucalyptus.

The ideal size of the log is up to 15" in diameter, that it's about the size that the tree has when cut. 

I would need to cut it on a length os 8".

We need to cut 2million of those 15' diameter x 8" length per month

I have abandoned the idea of using a guillotine and I'm thinking about using a system with a few chainsaws or circular saws.

Qhat do you guys think about it?

Offline Corley5

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2019, 11:10:56 AM »
Firewood processor :) ;D.
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Offline Francis Nabrink

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2019, 11:47:32 AM »
Firewood processor :) ;D.
Any firewood processor with multiple blades? 
The productivity must be very hight! 

Online Southside

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2019, 12:24:04 PM »
If you set up a gang of trim saws like the ones used to trim logs to length at high production mills you could set your entire log as one piece onto a feed chain which would push the log through the trim saws cutting your 8" lengths, however many you want at a time.  A 16'6" log would give you 25 of those cuts in maybe 2 seconds.  This way you could feed losgs to this gang saw as fast as you can load them and have the cuts fall off the back side into a hopper or other take away conveyor.  
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Offline Francis Nabrink

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2019, 12:30:41 PM »
If you set up a gang of trim saws like the ones used to trim logs to length at high production mills you could set your entire log as one piece onto a feed chain which would push the log through the trim saws cutting your 8" lengths, however many you want at a time.  A 16'6" log would give you 25 of those cuts in maybe 2 seconds.  This way you could feed losgs to this gang saw as fast as you can load them and have the cuts fall off the back side into a hopper or other take away conveyor.  
And how about the HP needed for a machine like these?
Lets saw that Im using 5 circular blades with a 32" diameter.
Do you have any ideia on how to calculate the HP needed?

Online Southside

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2019, 12:36:04 PM »
Most I have seen were in the 5HP - 10 HP range running 480V, 3 phase.  
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Offline Francis Nabrink

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 12:43:53 PM »
Most I have seen were in the 5HP - 10 HP range running 480V, 3 phase.  
For logs with 15 inches in diameter? I have seen those small table timer saws that use tha low HP, but the big ones needed away more dont they?

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 12:47:06 PM »
Well, you are cross cutting, but maybe species would impact it?
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Offline Francis Nabrink

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 12:58:21 PM »
Well, you are cross cutting, but maybe species would impact it?
Like this machine https://www.superaxe.com.au/rex-650-c-saw/
It uses a 70HP motor for one circular blade.

Offline DDW_OR

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 01:05:57 PM »
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Offline Greyman

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2019, 03:08:46 AM »
For 2,000,000 per month, assuming 5 day week, 10 hrs/day, that's about 170 per minute (3 per second).  Assuming 15' logs that's about 8 logs a minute (that's a logging truck every 5 minutes or so).  This is all for one plant, which would need to have a feed system something like the mill shown in this video (looks like it may be up to twice as fast, hard to tell).  You might get some ideas from the video on cutting as well, where they cut-to-length.  Logistically, it may be better to have a number of smaller firewood type units scattered around though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1eWUby71Ew



Offline mike_belben

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2019, 08:40:45 PM »
Multi blades on an arbor shaft is what im thinking too.  Feed the log at it sideways like an old buzz saw except you feed it whole logs.  Practically speaking they may need to be hand cut to a shorter standardized length like 8ft or so. The downside to making the arbor long enough for whole logs is the shaft would have to get quite thick to endure a long unsupported span.  Or it would need some bearing supports along its length which would reduce log diameter that can clear the bearings or require bigger saw OD.  

Id build it off a diesel truck engine. 855 cummins or something locally plentiful and and simple enough for jungle laborers to maintain. Its okay if you have excess horsepower on hand.  The engine will just live longer.   Id use a truck tranny and driveshaft too. No belts to break, just grease the Ujoints and check oil. 
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Offline TKehl

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2019, 03:40:39 PM »
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I'd be nervous about cutting with multiple blades on one shaft.  What happens when one of those blocks gets cocked and wedged between two blades...

Now a similar setup where logs roll down a line with multiple saws each taking a bite at a time (or one off each end) dropping to a conveyor.  That would put out some volume...
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2019, 09:05:16 PM »
The log loader wont allow it.  You have 3 bladed stars on a revolving shaft that grabs the log out of the feeder, walks it into the saw arbor and drops the pieces onto the outfeed chute while simultaneously grabbing next log. Youd have two stars per blade so as to cradle each bucked round for the last few seconds before they drop down, which prevent ejecting pieces that dont wanna fall perfectly square and kinda toggle between blades. 

Scrag mills use this sort of feeder to gang trim pallet stock. 
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Log cutting without sawing?
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2019, 10:19:03 AM »
I don't know why, but I was just thinking about this thread the other day and came back to see if anything became of it. I see the OP has not been back in a while. Was curious as to what he came up with to suit his need. I guess I will never know.
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