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Author Topic: help from an Ohio forester  (Read 835 times)

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Offline Brian w

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help from an Ohio forester
« on: December 22, 2018, 04:57:43 PM »
I'm logging 4 sections in a wildlife district. They are telling me that I have to be done by the end of March but also telling me that it's to wet to work. I have maybe two days left to complete the first section and have about half of the reclaim work done grass seed straw and all  I also have been blading in the log road's so to not leave any open ruts to hold water. Is there anything else I can do to make sure I can continue to work cause I don't see how I can possibly get three more sections done in just a few months if I cannot work every week I understand that I may have a few days off for rain but I can't afford to sit home for a hole week over one day of rain

Offline mike_belben

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2018, 07:33:55 PM »
Is this the state or private owner?  I would try to go as far up the chain of authority as possible and reason with them that if they want me to hold off on wet operations then a reasonable deadline extension must come with it to enable this to happen.  People in offices often dont understand whats involved in the real world.  Especially people in govt offices.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Brian w

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2018, 09:39:57 PM »
It is county owned 

Offline BuckeyeAaron

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2018, 07:41:42 AM »
I used to work for the State of Ohio as a Service Forester, and who knows how county level government will work as it can be so variable, but if you have been compliant and responsive so far with the contract you have every right to request an extension.  This has been a horribly wet fall/winter this year in Ohio so it's reasonable to need more time.  Was there a consulting forester involved with the sale or did you buy direct from the county?  If there was a forester, this should be a fairly straight forward conversation with him and let him handle getting the county to agree to an extension.  If you bought direct from the county and they are relunctant to agree to an extension, you may suggest they contact their local Service Forester for some education on logging and BMPs.  Does the contract have any language about getting an extension due to poor weather conditions?  I'm located in SW Ohio so if I can be of any help feel free to message me. 
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 

Psalms 139, 9-10.

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2018, 12:03:44 PM »
Yes, formally request a contract extension as stated for the operating days lost due to the wet conditions, especially if you have been operating in "good faith" according to the landowners terms.
~Ron

Offline Brian w

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 03:14:59 PM »
Thanks for all the advice so far but at this point a extension isn't the issue yet. I do have enough time to complete the sections I have to cut if they would just allow me to get in the woods and work. I have even reclaimed seeded and strawed the couple skid road's that I have completed cutting on even though the whole section isn't completely done. I was hoping that by doing this they would understand that I will fix and reclaim any roads I make but it seems to make no difference. The big issue is that with the year being as bad as it has if I can't get back to work soon I may be out of business before I get a chance to finish the job.

Offline BuckeyeAaron

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 05:12:14 PM »
Without seeing the contract it's tough to really offer any specific advice.  However, being state owned land and having State Foresters involved I imagine they have language in the contract about BMPs and harvesting when "soil is reasonably dry or frozen," or something along those lines.  It sounds like you have shown good efforts on previous reclamation work but I'm sure their mindset is focused on prevention rather than questioning your intention/abilities to clean things up.  Reclamation can be hard enough even when harvesting in ideal conditions.  At least that's where my focus would be.  But it's definitely hard on the logging side of things when we have a such a wet summer and fall - and I can emphathize - but it all boils down to what both parties agreed to when they signed the contract.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 

Psalms 139, 9-10.

Offline John Mc

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2018, 08:59:58 PM »
Being a wildlife district, I wonder if the deadline has to do with seasonal wildlife activity which normally happens after that deadline. They may not want your activity to interfere with that.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline yetti462

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2018, 01:39:51 PM »
The Indiana Bat is the reason for logging to be completed by the end of March. 

Shut down days should be added to contract length.  That's what happens in Indiana anyway.  Another proposal is precut and not skid until it freezes, I know it sucks to do that way but at least you're working.  If this timeline is for the Indiana Bat then the cutting of the trees is where the risk of TAKE is with the bat.  Skidding does not risk the bat.  I've seen woods cut before the deadline the skidded out after the end of March. 

Offline Brian w

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2018, 02:05:38 PM »
Well I tried working yesterday and it was muddy on the landing but not to bad in the woods and they came out looked at the landing and shut me down didn't even walk away from the front of their pickup.  I can get a extension but not in the dry months I can't work there at all from April 1st to Nov 1st and can't work unless it's dry or completely frozen which in Ohio winters doesn't happen anymore. So it's basically looking to me like they have sold timber and also doing everything possible to see that it isn't cut. The way they are doing it could take years to do a few months of work

Offline mike_belben

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2018, 06:35:55 PM »
If they are fully unreasonable, and its gonna seriously ruin your business, you may want to weigh out the option of playing hardball.   They may be fine folks just doing their job too so i dont want to assume or suggest this next part is a great idea.  Thats for you to decide.

Older bureaucrats have long enjoyed doing whatever they want in a fairly private world.  Social media has changed that and brought a tremendous amount of exposure, which is bad for rotten bureaucrats [ if that is in fact what youre dealing with. ]  It used to be you had to have money and connections to fight city hall.  Today careers are ended by mere accusations made on a cel phone and submitted to viral media outlets. Fairness is a buzzword and it wouldnt be hard to convince a large number of people that such and such has hamstring you into an unfair situation.  I dont know what your contract says or whether you should or shouldnt have gotten into it, thats your business.  Personally i dont give a squat about bats but you did agree to some terms. If theye changing them or adding new ones after the fact that isnt right.  Either way, If youre trying to make an honest living i am on your side. Its not an easy thing to do anymore.

Im not even saying that you should actually make any of this public, i am saying that the mention of it to said bureaucrats will likely remind them that you have options to pull a stunt too, and they have mortgages to worry about just like everyone else.  This sort of bluff tactic has brought me a lot of leverage with rotten bureaucrats over the years.  But its a card you dont play until there arent many other options left, as bluffs can be called.  Hopefully the weather will change for you and all will turn out fine without the drama.
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

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Re: help from an Ohio forester
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2018, 06:42:48 PM »
I cant remember where it was but i read about a landowner with maybe a hundred acres on a major route who had arranged a sale to some sort of developer, maybe a mall or factory, cant recall but it was well within his right.  The town tried to get involved to stop it so he went and had a dumptruck load of pig manure dropped off there and put up signs and got on the news saying if you block this plan i will put the maximum sized pig farm on this land and youll smell 500 pigs here forever.   Im pretty sure he got his way. 


Another great example was a trucking outfit that hauled frac sand for an oil exploration company that didnt pay him.  Hes on youtube standing in front of the corporate outfit, gets a secretary on the phone and says hey this is so and so trucking im calling you again about that sand you havent paid for, here comes my truck right now bringing the first load back.  Right then a hopper bottom passes thru and dumps a load right across the front office lot.  Dudes like im not playing with you, pay me by tomorrow or im bringing it all 30 loads or whatever right back here.  

My godfather was a lot like that, hard worker, big spine and wasnt taking any crap.  My whole life i watched everyone but him get dealt more and more crap. Donald was not gonna take it from anyone at any cost.  Aparently the challengers only pick on the ones who make it easy. If you lay down, the world is happy to run you right over. Its a bummer but you gotta take a stand now and then.
Revelation 3:20


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