Felling EAB Killed Ash

[lxskllr]

I have a tree at work I want to take down. It's an ash that's been dead at least a year, probably more. It has no significant lean in any direction. It's shedding limbs. I wrote before how it would have brained me had I been ~30 seconds longer looking for a property corner. The limb fell as I walked away from it.

I've read they can be sketchy to take down. Any particular precautions I should take? I usually work alone, but in this case I'll get a babysitter til the tree's on the ground. By memory, it's 24" DBH, with no real lean. Sitting in my house, I'm planning on setting a rope, give it a bit of tension, then do a standard face cut/back cut. Anything wrong with that plan?

[Oliver05262]

  It's already shedding limbs? Can it go down in any direction, or do you have to control the fall?
If you have anything to protect, then I'd suggest a bucket truck and take it down from the top.  If it's clear all around, sounds like a dynamite tree to me ;D.

[lxskllr]

It can technically go down anywhere. Nothing of value to worry about hitting, but I have a ~20° window where it wouldn't be likely get hung up on other trees and make a bigger problem. That would be diagonally across the drive. My boss would be happy to let it fall down on its own, but that has potentially more problems as you could imagine. IOW, it isn't something I *have* to do. At the end of the day, it isn't my problem, but it should be taken care of, and I'd be paid pretty well to take care of it.

[Southside]

I have said it before and some may disagree but EAB killed ash are by far the most dangerous "sound" tree you will come across.  It was under attack long before it showed any signs so the wood is quite a bit more compromised than one would expect.  I have seen multiple EAB killed ash break off 20' - 30' up and these were not small trees.  One expects that with a pine that looks like it is rotten but these Ash don't look rotten, they simply are.  

You can't move fast enough to get out from under a widow maker if one breaks free, by the time your spotter can react and you respond - assuming you hear it - the branch would already be on the ground.  I would not pull on a tree like that and be near the base of it, if that top breaks out you don't know what is coming down.  I have had pines break the top out and when they hit my wheeled buncher they tossed it around like it was a Tonka toy - it weighs 48,000 lbs.  That is a tree for a forestry equiped FOPS / ROPS guarded machine to take out in my opinion.   

[lxskllr]

What do you suppose the odds are of just pulling it over, or at least snapping off the messy stuff up high? Boss has a skid loader. I'd have to get more gear so the equipment could be kept away from the tree, but it should be doable. It's a drive through a woods, so there's decent anchors available.

[Southside]

Look at it this way, if the 1st log is 17' and keeping the 24" diameter then it weighs give or take 2,500 lbs.  So assuming the tree is 60' tall and pairing down for taper then I would guess the whole tree is in the 5,000 lb range.  How high can you get a rope and what do you do if that plan does not work and all you do is crack the tree?  Could it be dug out and toppled with an excavator?  Yes, but a non forestry excavator does not have FOPS guarding and if 5,000 lbs comes toppling down onto it...

Your boss has a problem there, I get wanting to fix the problem and make some money while doing it, but sometimes problems require solutions that cost money to avoid potentially costing life or limb.  

[lxskllr]

Hmm... I'll have to give it a better look than just going by memory. There's an outside chance it could be taken down from the top while tied in to a neighboring tree, but I don't think so. Might be better to just not make it my problem, and advise him to get it handled. The drive goes back to a couple houses. If they were really unlucky, it could fall on a car/person, but if nothing else, it could be a nuisance if the drive gets blocked.  Thanks for the input  :^)

[BargeMonkey]

Face cut of your preference, couple wedges and a heavy hinge, just send it. Climbing in a dead ash, ropes and lines, iron, even more to go wrong. I recently pulled over 8-9 BIG spruce near a house, the line attached is 75' and rated for 60ton, plus 100ft of 5/8 cable, anytime you start tugging be careful and make sure your far enough away to not get swatted. 
 The sound limbs make hitting the cab will wake you up 🤣 

[Old Greenhorn]

Just my 2 cents. I cut a Lot of these. If it is only dead a year, it should be pretty sound, check and whack around the stump carefully, rot comes from the ground up. The top die-off is the big danger, so keep looking up. I cut these with a standard face cut, then bore cut to make a pretty hinge, leave just tad extra thickness. Then drag the bore cut back and leave some holding wood, again, leave more than you think because the tree is dead. If the tree is straight up, you can tap in a couple of wedges through the sides of the bore cut toward the back side, just tap them tight, DO NOT drive them in hard (Driving will shake the top and maybe knock down a widow maker, or you could pop the back holding wood). This allows you to stand up and get in a safe spot to escape. Keep looking up. Then just clip of the holding wood and get moving. If it has a heavy lean it will drop fast, if it is relatively vertical, you should have a ton of time to clear the area. If it doesn't go, you already have your wedges in place, drive them with caution and keep looking up.
Your mileage may vary of course. These are tricky trees and you learn after a dozen or so and a close call or two. As always, if you are not comfortable, DON'T DO IT! The thing I have learned most about these trees is that the EAB only kills the bark, it does not enter the tree itself so the wood is very sound. BUT the wood dries and becomes brittle after a few seasons, so you have to have this as a major consideration in your plan, leaving extra hinge and holding wood and expecting that something will snap during the fall. Many of these crack when they hit the ground, even up above 24 DBH trees. The branches can fly in ANY direction as they break. Use your whole runway to get away from it. Pretty amazing.
Good Luck, and be Safe,
Tom

[Old Greenhorn]

BTW, when you take this tree, let everybody know how it went. Knowledge is power, but experience is gold. Please share yours. I am always studying how others take these down to get better myself.

[lxskllr]

BTW, when you take this tree, let everybody know how it went. Knowledge is power, but experience is gold. Please share yours. I am always studying how others take these down to get better myself.

Will do. I'll have to check it out next time I'm up there. If I end up taking it down, it probably won't be anything fancy, though I still like the rope idea. If it's as straight as I remember, the rope will encourage it to go where I want without beating wedges. By memory, there's a nice sized oak opposite the lay, and would give good cover using a redirect on the line.

[Skeans1]

If the top is dead the last thing you want to do is line the tree or start pounding on wedges, best solution is a deep humboldt face if you feel comfortable a small hinge is normally something I'll do on dead wood. A scratch style face will get you in more trouble fast with dead wood.

[Cutting Edge]

If the top is dead the last thing you want to do is line the tree or start pounding on wedges, best solution is a deep humboldt face if you feel comfortable a small hinge is normally something I'll do on dead wood. A scratch style face will get you in more trouble fast with dead wood.

x2 on using a Humbolt.  The hinge and holding wood is extremely brittle and completely unpredictable.  Appearances are deceiving.  IMO, the smaller ones are more of a handful... especially is it's covered in vines.  

Hombolt helps to prevent the butt end from coming back across the stump and trying to chase you down.    Usually due to vines influencing.  

Larger Ash seem to have enough mass the branches break off/tear vines on the way down and land close to where you want 'em.  If you have the diameter: face it,  maybe bore 2" behind hinge, come in from behind and release. Let nature do the rest.  ;)

Humbolt is the safest method I've found on the EAB Ash here in WV.  But each situation is different.

Be careful & on your toes... As Southside logger & Skeans1 mentioned, I'd pass on using a rope and wedges also.  Been there, done that, got broken headgear/torn shirt to prove it (very fortunate).  Only took 3 light licks on a wedge and a small piece of a limb (no warning/noise) make a quick trip down. 

[lxskllr]

I took a good look at it today, and I'm feeling better about the whole thing. The bottom of the tree seems pretty solid, and it has a slight lean towards the drive, but no big deal. Advice noted on the Humboldt. I still want a babysitter, so I'll have to wait til the boss is available to take it down, but I have a good feeling about it.


OTOH, there was an oak next to the drive that isn't looking good. I think that one might be beyond my abilities. It's ~30" dbh, and has missing bark down low. I'm gonna keep an eye on that one, and maybe think about doing something next cool weather season. I'm interested in seeing what it looks like in the spring. ~30' up it has two leaders that branch off, and there's no clean fall direction. If I had to take it down tomorrow, I think I'd climb it, remove the leggier leader over the drive(that one's pretty easy), and then ?? I need to study it more. I wouldn't be comfortable taking the primary leader while in the tree with my current experience level, but perhaps removing the leggy side would slim it down enough for a cleaner fall? Dunno. I'm not worrying about that any time soon.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll report back once I get the ash down.

[alan gage]

I would not pull on a tree like that and be near the base of it, if that top breaks out you don't know what is coming down. 

I'm curious about the recommendations for not attaching a rope. Is that in the scenario where the rope is loaded before the cut has begun? 

I've gotten into the habit of hooking a cable if the tree looks like it will need persuasion to fall the intended direction. No pressure on the tree/rope before beginning the cut. It saves me beating on wedges if the tree is stubborn. I'll set a couple wedges to keep it from leaning back and then pull it over with the truck or tractor. 

I'm sure there are faster ways to do it if you're on the clock but time isn't an issue when I'm doing it for myself. Always felt pulling with a cable was safer than pounding on wedges. I've also found it faster (for me) in the long run when I get one that takes more wedging that I expected. I'm all ears if my thinking is wrong. 

I'm usually working in fairly open pasture situations so getting a truck or tractor to give the correct direction of pull generally isn't an issue. 

Alan

[Southside]

My concern in this instance is that these EAB killed Ash are often a lot weaker than they look. Even with the bark still on I have seen more than a couple that have broken out 20' or more up. Out of an abundance of caution I won't mess with them without very good protection and I sure don't want to jostle them in any way if I need to be around it. I have some photos of some of these I will find and post. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I know some of you guys are gonna tell me I did it all wrong, but I needed a good ash saw log yesterday and I had a dead one I marked last June with top die off. It grew like an asparagus stalk, not much top, but it had a 5 degree lean about 120 degrees away from the desired direction of fall, the center of mass was also about 8 feet from the stump and 120 degrees from the fall line I wanted. I don't have the equipment to do ropes or cables easily, it's an 'all morning job', so this meant wedging it over to where I needed it. Now if it all went wrong, it could fall in any direction with no harm done as long as I got out of the way. I had a good, clean, flat escape route, so I figured 'what the heck, go for it and take your time'. Standard face cut, then I bored through to make a 1-1/2 inch hinge, but my bar wouldn't reach through. So I had to bore through from the other (non-safe) side and although I usually have a little trouble matching my bore cuts, this one was perfect. I dragged the bore cut back on one side and left 4-5 inches. I then TAPPED a wedge in hard enough to hold it, but not much more. Then I brought back the bore cut on the safe side and set another wedge, just a little tighter and re-tapped the first wedge to make it tight. I then snuck into the back between the two wedges and released all the wood I could without hitting a wedge. I set a third wedge straight into the back. I set the saw aside and took one whack on each wedge in order while looking up on each hit. The tree worked it's way up to vertical and as soon as it hit straight up, the single wedge in the back drove really easy. One extra whack. I set the ax in a nearby stump and walked away about 20 feet and turned. The tree was just starting to get past 5 degrees in the right direction and I watched the rest from a very safe distance. It hit right smack on the mark where I wanted it.  I got one 8 1/2' butt log that I needed plus 3 10 1/2 footers, and 35 feet of firewood.
 I will say, that if there was ANY chance of that tree causing damage to anything like a structure, I would not have taken it until I found a way to get a rope on it and have a second guy handy. But it this case, my only concern was my own safety and it could go any way it wanted. I was fully prepared for the hinge to snap, as said above, these are unpredictable and you have to be ready for it. It just would have been a LOT more work for me to get that thing out of the swamp.
 It can be done easily, is all I'm saying. You just have to weigh all the risks, have a plan A and a Plan B fully thought out and ready to execute. I will also say that when I am making my plan and looking at risks, if something threatens my safety, it is not a risk, it is a show-stopper. Never risk your life for a lousy tree. I have had a few close call with these trees, that's how I learned and which is why I always have a plan B now, and I always expect it to go wrong.
YMMV,
Tom

[mills]

One thing to watch for on any tree you pull with a cable is to make sure you have enough sound wood at the hinge to hold the butt in place. Nothing more dangerous than the butt breaking loose from the stump before tree commits to the fall. I know of a few times when I may have said a few bad words when we had the skidder tied to a tree, started the cut, and found that the tree is hollow. I would have to be really confident in the soundness of a tree before I would tie to a dead one.

[Southside]

I set the ax in a nearby stump and walked away about 20 feet and turned.

I am in no way being critical here, you had more information on the situation than anyone else and made a judgement call.  My one question is did you walk away from that tree with your back to it?  

[Old Greenhorn]

I set the ax in a nearby stump and walked away about 20 feet and turned.

I am in no way being critical here, you had more information on the situation than anyone else and made a judgement call.  My one question is did you walk away from that tree with your back to it?  

Yup! I looked up and saw how it was moving ever so slowly, I had time. In fact, I thought it would just move a bit and I would have to go back and give it another whack or two, but why take the chance and stand there? It was moving, so I got out of there. I always look where I am walking because even with a level escape path there are rocks, roots,  and stumps I can trip over. The point is to get away. Looking at the tree does me no good at that point, get away, THEN take the time to look. Most trees I never see hit the ground because I am spending all my focus on getting out of the way. Once it starts going, there is no more I can do but get to a safe place in a safe manner. Some trees go very fast, this one was like slow motion. Wish I had a video.

[Old Greenhorn]

Maybe it helps to explain that I have driven a lot of trees over with wedges and worked up quite a sweat doing it, then stacking wedges to finish the job. This tree was NOT that. I had three wedges and rotated my hits through each in turn. I was literally tapping the wedges in with a full axe one handed. I am old, and if I want to DRIVE a wedge, I need two hands and a full swing. This wasn't that at all. Multiple wedges allows one to move the tree mush more gently and slowly, minimizing the 'snap effect' on the top. It's my method and I ain't been kilt yet. Again, these are very trickey trees, if you are not confident, DO NOT attempt them. As a person I admire used to say "There are no second place winners" (in a gunfight) [Vic Jordan].

[alan gage]

One thing to watch for on any tree you pull with a cable is to make sure you have enough sound wood at the hinge to hold the butt in place. Nothing more dangerous than the butt breaking loose from the stump before tree commits to the fall. I know of a few times when I may have said a few bad words when we had the skidder tied to a tree, started the cut, and found that the tree is hollow. I would have to be really confident in the soundness of a tree before I would tie to a dead one.

I'd never considered that. It certainly would be a sticky situation. Thanks.
There have been a couple times where I thought I could easily wedge a tree over but even after stacking wedges it didn't want to go. Those were the times I wished I'd tied on a cable just in case but now it's too late since I'm not going to mess around getting a cable around it at that point. Eventually I got them to go but it was a lot more work than I thought. Looks so much easier on Youtube. I partly blame heavy wide spreading limbs on the oak trees I'm usually cutting. 
But now that you mention it there was one tall cottonwood with a back lean that I tied a cable to and then once I started cutting found it was mostly rotten. I left an extra thick hinge but the truck wouldn't pull it over (frozen ground). I wedged it a bit and then tried pulling again but still wouldn't go. Cut the hinge a little thinner and repeated wedging a pulling. Had to do that a couple more times before it finally went. I was worried that the hinge would break from the stress but it held. Once the tree was down and I could inspect the stump I found the heartwood was rotten so only the outer sapwood was holding on the hinge. I had about 4 more similar trees I wanted to take down but decided to leave them standing after that experience. 
Alan

[Skeans1]

How deep are you guys putting your face in?

[alan gage]

How deep are you guys putting your face in?

I shoot for around 75% of the diameter.
Alan

[nybhh]

@Old Greenhorn - next time you are cutting on a weekend, I'd love to tag along, lend a hand and try and learn a few things.  Let me know.  :new_year: