Feeding of the deer

[doc henderson]

thanks jem

[wisconsitom]

While I won't reveal my opinion here on feeding deer and other wildlife-and I also think that opinion will be obvious-I will say-I am surprised to see so many "foresters" excited about deer.  In my world, they are nothing but a scourge, affecting the composition of forests in a vastly negative way, now that their numbers are so artificially boosted by civilization.

Here in Wisconsin, our deer herd-even on so-called "off years"-is far, far higher than what the land can carry, and much higher than at time of Euro-settlement.  At least insofar as not damaging that land.  Right back to forest composition.

You guys really think deer need  you "feeding" them, huh?  I'm not here to necessarily make friends, but rather, to exchange info and ideas.  As an idea goes, I think feeding deer is a poor one.  So do most deer experts.  Maybe not into experts here?

tom

[doc henderson]

I think most guys here enjoy nature.  I think some feed animals to be able to see them and enjoy them.  some are feeding deer to compensate for civilization and the habitat that is lost.  some do it to get them in close for the sport of using a bow, or muzzle loader to harvest and control the populations, as well as to put meat in the freezer.  We are all part of the ecosystem.  I believe in protecting resources and picking up after myself.  The bit of corn put out by some, does not compare with the wide open fields of hay, alfalfa, corn ect.  They are already depending on human grown food.




 




 


Was just helping my buddy Dallas build a deer blind for next years bow season.  Still have to replace my right truck door, after the third deer in a group ran into the side of my truck! smiley_cry.   Tom, I appreciate your point of view.  Experts are great, but so many of them have the point of view, and then get into research and become experts.  Global warming is a good example.  Obama passed regs. that did not allow grants to go to persons not trying to prove GW.

[wisconsitom]

"Obama" did no such thing.  Presidents don't sit on science advisory councils, as a general rule.  But more importantly, there are no actual scientists disputing the topic in the way you suggest in your post.  And we've said that roughly one million times now-but I'm sure we'll be saying it many more times.

"Feeding deer" is one of the primary means by which CWD is spreading in places like Wisconsin, full of folks who "love wildlife" and somehow miss the "wild" part.  Oh, and "civilization" is not diminishing habitat for such generalist species as white-tailed deer.  Just the opposite-it has greatly expanded their opportunities....which I did mention in my previous, apparently unread or unbelieved post.

tom

[thecfarm]

The deer will gather at the bog or where I am feeding them. Take your pick.My maybe 5-8 pounds a night does not go far with 20-30 deer either.

[doc henderson]

My background is biology.  No one dare question global warming, or is it climate change now, because like so many other things, it is not pc.  Not to bring politics to a forestry forum, we are so divided.  It is not inadvertent, but part of the plan by some.  How can habitat not be reduced if we are all living in huge houses, compared to 200 years ago.  federal research grants were slanted toward the pro climate change people, so you cannot even do a "non biased" study at this point.  I still appreciate your point of view, but I disagree.  I think increased numbers may be due to less predation.  Fewer coyotes ect.  Most deer are killed by SUVs.  Most hunters put down a bucket full of corn every day or two, just to increase their chances at getting a deer for the freezer.  It is not enough to increase populations, and usually only a few at a time.  Mule deer still roam in herds of 40- 50 in western Ks.  every thing we do prob. has some effect on something else.  We all make our own choices, and no one wants to be told what to do.

[doc henderson]

I said decreased habitat, meaning relative to the deer population, and you said too many for the land to support?  kind of the same thing.  what is your background?  Maybe I missed a post where you made this clear.

[brianJ]

I got more deer than I would like consuming my alfalfa & corn.   Id be thrilled to see them dwindle by half.  Course This hill country speckled with small fields lots of edge habitat and productive forest  is nearly ideal for them.

[doc henderson]

I am sure with all our opinions, we will end up somewhere in the middle, usually not a bad place to be!  Tom I saw your profile and it looks like this is your thing.  Regards.

[WV Sawmiller]

   My degree was Wildlife Biology. I remember learning in classes there were more deer in America than when the settlers arrived. There are way more now than back when I was in college. There may be less of other species such as bison and such. Deer are very adaptable and will continue to increase based to carrying capacity which is constantly changing. I remember in one of our classes we learned the deer herd in Fla was kept in check by the screw worm so when we eradicated the screwfly the deer herd there increased significantly. The deer herd, as with all animals is kept in check by food, brood raising factors, disease and predators. If your exceed the food supply the herd weakens then disease or predators remove the weaker ones first. Lacking predators disease will increase to keep things in balance. The numbers will always be fluctuating from year to year and season to season. Humans are the only predator that tries to harvest the biggest and strongest animals vs the weaker ones. 

   I worked and vacationed a lot in Africa and my guides there thought we were crazy to get concerned by by trophy hunters killing the biggest and most impressive animals. Most of those had already been kicked out of the herd by younger, stronger bulls and they were no longer part of the breeding population anyway so removing them did not adversely affect the animal population and such hunting hugely affected the local economy and the local population often got the meat.

   Doc mentioned it but the feed most of us put out for deer is not to sustain them but to attract them so we can see and/or kill them easier. Baiting was not legal here when I moved to this state but as the numbers increase our DNR approved the practice on private land as a tool to help increase the harvest. 

[mike_belben]

I believe in feeding the deer.  


...to my family. 

[submarinesailor]

Been following this tread from the beginning and would like to add my 2 pennies.

Back in 1993, my wife and I purchased 76 acres in Syria (Madison County), Virginia.  And I can tell you that for the first 8 to 12 years the deer hunting was terrible.  I think in that time frame, myself and 3 other hunters killed maybe 8 deer.  For us, using feeders was hard because of the bears.  They continually tore them to hell and back.  Couldn't keep one running for more than 2 months at a time.  This summer is a prime case in point; had one down need the house and thought I had it fairly "bear proof."  Wrong answer, they had in down and totally destroyed in 5 weeks.  Still haven't figured out how it/they got to it.

About 10-12 years after we purchased this place, the property just down river from us was timbered.  I called their timbering method as a clear select cut.  Some areas they took everything, while others they only took the real good stuff.  As you guys know this created a huge amount of undergrowth.  Well about 2 years after this we started seeing and killing a lot more deer.  None of them of any real size or racks.  I think one opening day, 4 of us killed 5.  Well, as "they" say, all good things must come to an end.  Starting about 5 years ago, we noticed there seemed to be a lot less deer.  Last year and this year were typical in that we only got 1 each year.  But.....both of them appeared to be bigger deer.  As a matter of fact, the one killed this year was the biggest bodied deer we have killed in 30 years.  It had one messed up rack on it.
We have talked about this many times and the only things we can think of: (1) The canopy on my land is 26 years older and is shading out the undergrowth making for less feed.  We have noticed there seems to be a lot less spice brush down in the lower area.  Which is mostly yellow poplar trees. (2) The timbered property has grown up in non-feed type plants like ailanthus.

Bruce

[Southside]

To add to your observations there Bruce - how heavy has the dog hunting been over your way the past 5 years or so?  Around here nothing lives much past 2.5 years given the heavy pressure we get from the tri-cities area.  

[submarinesailor]

To add to your observations there Bruce - how heavy has the dog hunting been over your way the past 5 years or so?  Around here nothing lives much past 2.5 years given the heavy pressure we get from the tri-cities area.  

Most of the time it's bear dogs doing the running.  When they are out and running, they keep the deer really spooked.
Bruce

[thecfarm]

I do not feed the deer in the summer. The deer will stop coming where I feed them,or they have for the last 18 years. Come late April,I put food out and go check on the food and it is still there in the morning. That tells me they are done. Now the garden they like to dine in.... But they was doing that long before I started to feed them and built a house here. I think I mentioned I would like to plant a few areas of turnips and carrots. Just a couple hand rake widths and 6-8 feet long. But never have yet. I know some of you guys plant acres of food for them.  I have heard of some doing that around here too.

[Southside]

Sunflowers - plant sunflowers they love to eat the buds off of sunflowers before they open up and the plant will respond by putting out several more leaders and smaller flowers, so you still get the sunnies, the birds, and the deer are happy.  

[thecfarm]

Sunflowers?  Had them in the garden each year. Small ones make a great cut flower. Will have to try it.

[frazman]

I find this thread to be very interesting to follow.

As for in my area, deer population is just starting to get better. We had a terrible winter kill a few years ago and the hunting season was adjusted accordingly.

Anyway, I try and do my part in helping the deer population grow. I see no reason in not feeding deer any type of pulse as they are feeding in some of my neighbours field for soybeans left over from the harvest...

[mike_belben]

Ray, since you are in a deep winter state you are probably seeing them come in for thermal shelter in young dense pine patches. When winter breaks theyll move off to feed on hardwood regen, grasses and ag fields elsewhere.  When the ag is cut, grass is iced and cold returns, the corn and thermal cover will always win them back to you.


The herd reduction mentioned in virginia is likely coyote predation on the fawns born to whatever does survive hunting season.   Take up coyote hunting, [mating season is now] hingecut or sever low grade maple, black gum and sourwood about a foot off the ground for coppice regen to provide food and thick brushy cover.  Get some sunlight on your briars and poke weed clumps and if no water nearby, put out a few plastic cement mixing tubs in shady spots.  

If you can thicken it up in there for cover, reduce predators and include water your does will fawn there and the fawns will grow into deer who are inclined to stay unless something forces dispersal.

Sowing some switchgrass and/or native wildflower seed near your already brushy patches and maybe field edges will really up the holding potential.  Switchgrass with random flower colors hides fawns extremely well.  Theyve got matching cammo and wont need to move for feeding.  If they stay put theyll survive.  Coyotes climb up on round bales in summer to scratch the fleas and mange on their bellies while waiting for mice to scurry out of the bale.  Theyve got eyes to spot a fawn on the field edge from really far off so thats why i say try to break up the field edge and not leave the fawn a reason to wander out of your designated fawning sanctuary. 

[Southside]

Habitat loss is a big issue here. Folks clear cut mixed hardwood stands and replant them to loblolly pine, which is subsidized via a tax paid by sawmills. Not much for a deer to eat once that plantation is sprayed and the canopy closes up.  Fawn loss is an issue but the incredible hunting pressure and non harvest losses from buckshot play a major role in our herd health and size. 

[Peter Drouin]

Cfarm, I have friends around, that like me feed the dear,  ;D We had a meeting.

Now we all feed the same stuff to them. the last count was 28 head, When the sun goes down we call each other, 4 dear here 6 over toms 10 over mikes. Bunch and bunch of them all over.
To bad Anns not here to see what we're doing. 
It's getting better for me cfarm. 
Customers banging down the door for lumber.
Take care, my friend.

[thecfarm]

I have neighbors that feed them too. One wants to get a paint gun and than ask me it I saw that yellow one,blue one and so on. ;D
Glad things are going good for you.
This year I think I only have 20,last year I had 40. Get 40 deer around me,it's kinda of a odd feeling. 

[Southside]

Good to hear from you Peter.  

[WV Sawmiller]

cfarm,

   I like the paint gun idea. let us know how it works.

    7-8 years ago my wife and I vacationed in southern Africa and stayed at a campground in Namibia on a river with Angola on the other side. The camp was infested with monkeys that would steal anything they could get. The campground manager would make rounds with his paintgun shooting them. It was funny when they'd see him and they'd give the alarm and every monkey in the camp would skeedaddle. As soon as he left they'd be right back. Our last breakfast there we had one piece of kudu sausage and one piece of French toast left and me, my wife and our guide were all looking at it wanting it but trying not to be greedy when a monkey came down and solved our dilemma by stealing them both. When we went to pack up I walked to the back of the covered pick up to put some gear in and found a monkey in there who charged, I ducked and he jumped over me and headed for the trees.

[doc henderson]

sounds like you have had some real adventures WV.