Which saws to get hammered?

[Trapper John]

I am sending at least one saw to lower 48 for hammering, I want to eliminate all variables in my Belsaw when I start up this spring.  I am sending a 48" X 30 tooth F-8 because that is what I have been using.   I am also thinking of sending a smaller saw because I have read on the forum that a 48" saw is too much for a Belsaw (1.75" arbor) and maybe I should be running a smaller saw.  I have a 44" X 40 S-3 and a standard Belsaw at 40" X 24 B9.  My largest logs are 20 inch white spruce.  A saw doc in Minnesota said he has seen breakage in the style 3 shoulders.  I will be sawing frozen logs and I don't want to deal with that if that is true.  Also 40 teeth seems like a lot of teeth although I have read more teeth are good in knots and smaller logs.  I have good power with a 6cyl Deutz but limiting factor is the 8" flat belt although I have thought of going to a  10" belt.  I am open to all ideas, even considering buying a used saw already hammered and ready to go.  If I do send two saws I am thinking of one crate unless this is bad idea.  Transport will be air freight so I am trying to keep weight down. 

[bandmiller2]

Trapper its hard to believe theirs now one in Ak. that can hammer a saw. If I was at the far end of the supply chain I would give serious thought to hammering my own. Read everything you can and take it slow. I'm in the crowded northeast and theirs not a smith close, I'm on the verge of doing it myself. I have an old soft Diston 48" that needs some tension. Frank C.

[moodnacreek]

Many people use 48" on bellsaw although not recommended. In spruce you would want the most teeth. However being frozen spruce you may want the least amount of teeth to get a bigger chip. Also stand all teeth or 'frost' shanks.

[Trapper John]

All the sawyers I have contacted send their saws Outside.  Yes, I would like to learn this skill but right now I need to get it right.  Probably take me a long time to get it right.  Saw docs have told me they can teach but students simply don't get enough practice in the long run.  Something to consider however.    John

[moodnacreek]

Trapper its hard to believe theirs now one in Ak. that can hammer a saw. If I was at the far end of the supply chain I would give serious thought to hammering my own. Read everything you can and take it slow. I'm in the crowded northeast and theirs not a smith close, I'm on the verge of doing it myself. I have an old soft Diston 48" that needs some tension. Frank C.

Frank. tried to p.m. you. There is Bruce More in Gansevort, N.Y.607 483 3806, good man. Also 'the saw shop' in N.H.  Doug

[Don P]

Somebody was asking about hammering around Christmas, I scanned an article from the 1904 Disston book on how it's done but think it is probably more than fair use to post it. If any of you want it pm me an email and I'd be happy to send it.

I think shipping several blades would be fine if you put a layer of cardboard between them.

[longtime lurker]

Bicycle tyres... just cut them to suit and wrap them around the rim of the saw, and duct tape across the diameters to hold it in place. If multiple saws then the above plus some cardboard between them. Works great..

Saws can be finicky: I am always reluctant to put a saw that's cutting well on the anvil. If they aren't cutting well you should be able to see  any hot spots by them being brighter then the rest of the plate. Any hollow will similarly build up deposits of pitch/resin//sap.  You need to mark these... Makes the saw doctors life easy and sometimes bright spots fade with a bit of time in transit and sitting around waiting.

[dgdrls]

TJ,

whats driving you to get the blades hammered?
did they suffer heating or a hit?

What model Belsaw do you have?

D

[Trapper John]

My Belsaw  is an M-24.   I am getting saw hammered to eliminate this variable in the performance of my mill.  The 48" I have been using has been producing mixed results but this could be from other factors so I will not hammer this saw. ( But it seemed my guides would wear down quickly.)  My other 48" seemed loose,  could not achieve a good stand up and did not cut that good.  So I will probably hammer this saw so I have this size saw in hopefully perfect condition.  If after I finish building my wooden crate today and the weight will not break the bank, I might send also my 40" Belsaw saw which is in terrible condition.  Then I would have a smaller saw in hopefully perfect condition so I could evaluate this option on my mill. 

[dgdrls]

Eliminating issues/questions is good.

You mention the guides are wearing quickly,  
does the saw show a line caused by the guides?
also, as I understand new shanks and teeth before it gets hammered.

Good choice on building a shipping crate 

D



 

[Trapper John]

Yes the saw has shinny band on outside.  No much inside.  I had not planned on changing out shanks and teeth.  I have not got quote from DHL global forwarding yet but by air the freight is $550.  If my saw doc requires all new bits and shanks I will have to consider sending both saws.  Is that standard procedure?  If no issues with present bits and shanks, why replace?

[Trapper John]

I noticed that crate is labeled Do Not Lay Flat.  Is this critical and why?

[jimparamedic]

I use a 50" saw on my belsaw one of the biggest problems I've seen is that rpm is not right for the saw or trying to feed the log to fast into the saw. Another thing is running a left hand saw on a right hand mill or the other way around. 

[dgdrls]

If you have lose or worn shanks now is the time to replace them and if your going to
spend the money to get its checked you may as well put the investment into new
teeth and shanks considering how far it is to ship the darn things.  
Once loaded with new parts (which will affect tension) the Doctor can tune the blade to the new parts as a unit.

The "do not lay flat" is more a protection for the transportation process its self.
The blade packed in a crate on its side by-itself is not the issue.  Trucking and moving Big flat-pack items is the issue,  they'll tend to get laid flat then stuff loaded on top of them.  The label
puts attention to the transporter to keep it upright which eliminates the piling of who-knows-what on your blade.

The guide ring-mark on the blade is signaling an issue,  
the blade is being forced over to the guide.
When you take the blade off check the collars for correct machining  
and make certain the teeth faces are square to the blade body.
Also confirm your lead,

Jim makes a very good point about blade speed,  you need to be certain
your not swinging the blade too fast,

D

[Trapper John]

Yeah, good point about shanks as how I can understand how they affect tension.  But bits, they wear down all the time and are constantly replaced.  Going to call the doc in the morning and get his opinion.
 
About the guide ring mark, good point.  I inverted my carriage in preparation for beefing up and I noticed the carriage guide wheels are noticeably more worn on the outside flange which would indicate to me that I had too much lead and the saw was forcing log/carriage inward, away from saw.  But that would contradict the noticeable ring on the outside of the saw which would indicate the carriage/log is being forced outward.  But I am kind of dyslexic so maybe I got things all wrong.  I am  going to put a dial on my solid collar and eliminate that issue as well.  I have a jockey grinder and teeth are square.

So Jim are you saying that if you could adjust your rpm and feed rate, your 50" saw would work fine?

Also read on the forum that smaller saws have less tension issues than larger saws and that kind of make sense.  Any vibration/harmonics in the arbor is going to be amplified in a larger saw, right?

[bandmiller2]

Trapper, many sawsmiths have used saw for sale, the money your looking at to ship your saw you could get a used one all hammered and pay shipping one way. Smaller thicker saws are less trouble to keep in tension and would be better for you if you cut a lot of smaller stuff. For years I used a 44" saw and never ran across anything I couldn't mill. Frank C.

[moodnacreek]

The shanks affect the tension tremendously. Think of them as cresent shaped springs. Shanks wear in the throat or gullet area and also can loose their spring. The saw gets hammered with the shanks that are in it but if you change the shanks latter with stronger [or weaker] ones it will change the tension. This was the problem with 1 piece combination bit and shank because changing them changed the saw.

[jimparamedic]

When you change saw size you are changing the rim speed so mandrel rpm can be different for each saw. Saws are hammered for a specific rpm, I have an old solid tooth saw that was hammered at 350rpm and i also have that was hammered for 750rpm and some in between. And i have learned over the years that the rpm a saw is hammered for is a guide not 100% some times a saw may run better at a little slower or a little fast rpm. Now as far as feed rate.  Each tooth should be taking a 1/16 to 1/8 inch per revolution.If you try and feed a log to fast it will push the saw to the path of least resistance. If you feed to slow you make dust instead of chips and the dust sticks in the cut and heats the saw which makes the saw warp. When i have problems I go to the ( CIRCULAR SAWMILLS and their efficient operation) that was put out by the U.S. Forestry Service. Tons of great information.

[maple flats]

You might also want to look at Menominee Saw (a sponsor at the left). I sent 2 blades to be hammered and had them make 2 new blades (I use different blades for hard wood and soft wood). They did an excellent job both hammering the old ones and making the new ones. A FF member there (Peach) did mine, he really knows how and he hammers by hand, not done by machine.
He doesn't post on here much.

[BUGGUTZ]

Ok, I'm gonna toss two cents. I had issues with my M 24 riding on the outer guide, tapered boards, no consistency. I went over everything I could think of, even sent my blade in to be hammered just to be sure.

What ended up being the issue was the bolt that puts tension on the carriage shaft that runs off the set works. when the loge advanced into the blade the head blocks would move back just a smidge. Just enough to ruin a board. I snugged up the set screw and BAM perfect cuts, board after board.

Not saying this relates to the problem at hand, just sharing.

Chuck