ICE AND SNOW

jerry sundberg · February 24, 2019, 08:32:09 AM

Got to thinking (it can be dangerous and costly) the other day since I have a metal roof on the house and the metal has ridges every 9" apart why not run PEX in the ridges and pump hot water threw them to get the snow to melt. Normally it will slide off by itself, but this year we have not had a above freezing day for 52 days and the next week supposed to have below zero temps all week. Snow and ice build up is about 30" now. The water could be heated with a heat exchanger plumbed into our heating system and closed off when not needed. Of course you'd need to have anti freeze in that system. What do you all think?

snowstorm · February 24, 2019, 09:55:30 AM

it may work but it will melt the frost on the inside of the steel and drip. on my garage the snow usually slides off. when the sun come out you can hear the little ice pellets fall. even after i put the triflex under the steel

47sawdust · February 24, 2019, 12:05:56 PM

I'm a little puzzled as to how the pex tubing would be laid to complete the circuit.If you have access to the rafters or attic more insulation (cellulose) would be the best approach to eliminate heat loss.
You are not the first to be afflicted with thinking being dangerous.

GAB · February 24, 2019, 12:34:21 PM

jerry sundberg:
What is the pitch of the roof in question?
I'm thinking that the flatter the roof the more heat it will take.
Gerald

jerry sundberg · February 24, 2019, 04:22:30 PM

The roof pitch is 4-12. The steel is laid on top of old shingles that don't leak. Been there for 25 years. I'm thinking of running a manifold on the top by the ridge and one on the bottom under the over hang. A small reservoir tank and a circulating pump.

florida · February 24, 2019, 04:24:59 PM

Use a small rope or wire to get the snow off. It's how we do in in south Florida. :D

Wiring Snow off a Roof - YouTube

jmouton · February 24, 2019, 07:12:55 PM

south florida too funny

doc henderson · February 24, 2019, 07:32:46 PM

It might just melt a tunnel along the ridges. You could also drain it if you do not need it often. They make a electric system, more to prevent ice dams and getting a leak. i would look at expense and how often you would use it. fun to think about when you cannot do much else with all the snow. I like the cable system, esp. if you could stage it ahead of a big snow. maybe a stereo with a big sub woofer in the attic!!! 8)

alan gage · February 24, 2019, 07:37:25 PM

Just shovel it. Doesn't take very long.

Roof Snow Removal Fail Turns Into Win - Funny Videos at Videobash - YouTube

Alan

doc henderson · February 24, 2019, 07:39:19 PM

Alan, now that is funny, I want to see if he can do it again on the other side. :D

thecfarm · February 24, 2019, 07:57:41 PM

I think it would work,just turn it on a while,no idea how much of a while, ;D before it snows,which would warm up the steel,snow would melt as it hits the roof,or I think it would. Cost wise??
Should work even with snow on the roof. That is a metal roof,with a line every 9 inches. Mine plastic lines you can just about hand onto,180° is warm. Would warm up the roof enough to make it slide off.

Brad_bb · February 24, 2019, 08:01:27 PM

I wonder what someone else did, will it just melt a little tunnel? Also, how much heat would you lose that way, and how much would that cost? Will it create too much condensation in the cold roof space? Are you really willing to remove your roof to install an unproven idea? Someone must have tried this at some point....

doc henderson · February 24, 2019, 08:24:18 PM

I think if you did it as it fell, it would keep it from building up. If you waited for 3 feet to accumulate, would make tunnels I think. i assumed you were using an OWB and getting fuel from your waste wood. I have doc friends who have sidewalk heat which sounds good but costs a lot in natural gas as they have to run the circuit when it is cold, even if there is no moisture on the ground. I think we could get Jeff to drive down the street with his new Mustang and depending on the Band and the Bass line, clear all the roofs in the north east. Not sure how it will drive in the snow. smiley_singsongnote02

:snowman: smiley_christmas :snowfight1: smiley_hillbilly_tub_base

jerry sundberg · February 25, 2019, 06:24:06 AM

I too think it would be better to do it as it came than to let it build up. We have a Garn boiler that heats home, shop, Green house, and domestic water. Through a heat exchanger and valves it could heat roof water only when needed.

jerry sundberg · February 25, 2019, 06:35:46 AM

I do like the wire method, simple and easy. Could the wire be laid up there in the Summer some how so you wouldn't have to go do it in the Winter? Anchor it permanently on one end and run across the ridge and tie up in a loop at the other end ready to go when needed.

Crusarius · February 25, 2019, 08:04:15 AM

spring loaded wire to put it back up after the snow falls off.

The pex idea is good except the proper way to fasten a steel roof is screw through the high spots into the roof. That will block your pex channels.

unless your standing seam.

Ed_K · February 25, 2019, 08:11:17 AM

We had a build up of scum/dirt from tree pitch an dirty rain (acid rain?) anyways we bought some roof cleaner from HD it's diluted 9to1 I mixed it 6to1. It's working pretty good so far. The back side that gets no sun has slid off every storm. Front takes some time,little at a time. I'm going to do a treatment again next late summer and then use a spray on wax to see if it will slide off like it used to do when the roof was new. I think some of it is caused by fading paint too.

doc henderson · February 25, 2019, 08:18:21 AM

where is your insulation. If the insulation is just above your ceiling, and not under the roof underlayment, you will be trying to heat the osb and attic space. If it were a new build, you could put pex on the underside of the underlayment and insulate behind/underneath it. If these are vaulted ceilings with insulated panel, then under the ridges would be best. again the key is to design it to be shut down when not needed even in cold weather, it will pull/waste a lot of heat. think of putting a bucket of snow on a woodstove and trying to melt it. then take it time 1,000. Or like leaving your front and back door open in the middle of winter. I like the idea of the wax. will make it look new again. The oxidation is ruff. be careful up there!

alan gage · February 26, 2019, 10:51:31 AM

Quote from: Crusarius on February 25, 2019, 08:04:15 AM
the proper way to fasten a steel roof is screw through the high spots into the roof.

Never seen a manufacturer recommend that. They want it in the flat next to the ridge.
Alan

Crusarius · February 26, 2019, 10:59:49 AM

The reason for the high spot is so when the screws begin to back out the water does not run down the threads.

Otherwise if its in the flat spot the water will hit the threads and run right down them and rot the wood.

If you look at actual documentation from the manufacturers you will find they all recommend screwing through the high points. especially at panel seams. Otherwise the panel seam will come apart.

alan gage · February 26, 2019, 04:54:23 PM

Quote from: Crusarius on February 26, 2019, 10:59:49 AM
The reason for the high spot is so when the screws begin to back out the water does not run down the threads.

Otherwise if its in the flat spot the water will hit the threads and run right down them and rot the wood.

If you look at actual documentation from the manufacturers you will find they all recommend screwing through the high points. especially at panel seams. Otherwise the panel seam will come apart.

I have looked at the documentation from multiple manufacturers and they've all said to put the screws in the flat. Never seen one say otherwise but have seen plenty of people put them in the ribs, especially older roofs with nails instead of screws. Where the panels are joined a screw goes on each side of that rib so the edge of each panel is fastened.
Alan

Crusarius · February 26, 2019, 05:03:10 PM

I would love to see that documentation. But what I want to know is do they mean the flats of the ribs?

alan gage · February 26, 2019, 05:12:56 PM

Quote from: Crusarius on February 26, 2019, 05:03:10 PM
I would love to see that documentation. But what I want to know is do they mean the flats of the ribs?

From Fabral:
Fabral-GR3-04-Fastener Location - YouTube

This manufacturer shows fastening on page 6. They do show a screw going through the rib but it's only a stitch screw to joint the two panels. It doesn't fasten them to the roof deck. https://www.metalsales.us.com/system/files/resources/installation-guides/classic-rib-installation-guide8-2016.pdf

Alan

Mike W · February 26, 2019, 05:17:50 PM

Metal roof I just installed by Fabral, below is an exert from their installation manual. Been a general contractor since 94 and been building since the mid 80's (yea dating myself). built 100's of homes / barns / out buildings / shops, etc. with metal roofing and or both roofing and siding. Before screws became the industry standard, nailing would occur on the high rib part of the profile as we all know nails pull easily even with ring shanks when stressed due to thermal gain and loss. Heck even the screws need attention here and there as they back out as well. I'd say, just glue it down and be done with it :D ;D

FABRAL can supply either screws or nails for fastening into dimension lumber. Always use screws with solid sheathing. Screws for use with steel panels are galvanized and then coated with an organic polymer for optimum corrosion resistance. For best results with aluminum panels, use #300 series stainless steel screws. Wood screws with combination metal and neoprene washers should be installed in the flat area of the panel adjacent to the ribs, and tightened such that the washer is compressed as illustrated above. This will ensure a lasting, leak-proof seal. REMOVE ANY METAL FILINGS CREATED BY THE DRILLING ACTION OF THE SCREWS OR PRE-DRILLING OF THE HOLES TO AVOID RUST STAINING ON THE PANEL SURFACE. Refer to the fastening schedules in this booklet for the correct fastener locations.