The Greenhorn's initial sawing season 2019-20

[Old Greenhorn]

Really Doc, there are no tears.

 As for the teenager idea. I would love one, 3 would be a bit much to handle, but as Nebraska and Ray 'hinted' at It might take 3 to make one good one. They could takes turns on a 15 minute rotation and I would pay them accordingly.  ;D I actually prefer to work mostly alone so I can hear myself think. As mentioned I am not very good at this so I am constantly thinking trying to avoid doing something dumb. Sometimes I fail. :D I also have a very low tolerance for people who have bad habits like not knowing where their fingers are at all times and putting the body parts in dangerous positions.

 Short day today, I did some Christmas shopping at Tractor supply on request then headed to the mall and it was deserted at 8:30am. Didn't find what I wanted to get. Went out to the shop and drilled the last pin hole in the floor. I had gotten a new $22.00 tube of anchor pin epoxy because the tube I used for the other loft posts was now 2 years old. Didn't think it was any good, but I tried it and what do you know!? Still good and I did all 5 posts with what was left in the tube and never touched the new tube. All 5 posts are set now and curing up just shimmed square. I also slid the bench back, but I will wait on the drawers. i took off a row of 4 drawers so I will have to consolidate a little.

 In this photo you can just make out the 5 posts: 2 against the back wall, one on the corner of the stairs, and the 2 front ones are at the extreme left and right in the photo, the left one is behind the drill press and the right one is at the edge of the window. Next I have to secure them to the walls then hang the first header on the right hand (outside) wall. I figure that to be a full day, after that my productivity should pick up.



 

 Now I have to get in a Happy Christmas mood and clean the den, wrap gifts, and help the wife. Then this evening we start visiting. Truthfully, I would rather be working, but it is nice to spend time with family and friends. I just hate the drama that sometimes creeps into these things.

 I was just thinking, the house 2 doors down just sold. Maybe there will be a teenager moving in that knows what a hammer is? (Well, I can dream, can't I? After all, it is Christmas.)
 OH, and good luck to everybody in the drawing tomorrow. The sponsors and members are been unbelievably generous with their contributions and there are gonna be some extra happy folks in the world by tomorrow evening.  Me, I had enough fun just doing the contest. Thanks to all for the wonderful event that helps make this forum different from anything else you can find today.
 Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to all!
:christmas: 

[SawyerTed]

The only thing different between teenagers then and now is we aggravated our elders and current teenagers aggravate us!

Some certainty don't know the difference among a wench, a winch and a wrench, but did we at 16?

Ed Zern or Pat McManus wrote about  the fact every boy needs an "old man" who is not his father (as much as they need dads).  The old man used to be grandpa but now sometimes he is a neighbor or family friend. I'm  the "old man"/mentor for a couple of teenage boys.  We fix stuff, we build stuff, they tail gun at the mill, we hunt and we fish.  But importantly we talk and I tell them what I think. I'm not afraid to tell them they are being a dumbe$$ about something.   They've come to appreciate it. :D :D
I'm also in the audience at school events or scouting activities.  I believe they will be better men in the end. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I think both Ed and Pat wrote that as much, if not stated directly in their stories. I was, and am a big fan of their work. Had all of Ed's books and recently gave them to a young cousin, along with all of Pat's books that I had. I hope he enjoyed them. This is how it goes in my family and the writing just kind of fit for us. I spent 35 years or more (lost count) in Scouting helping boys learn to do things and make good decisions. I will confess, I got out of it and am focusing on myself and my wife for a change. But some boys still come hang around (mostly Grandsons) and the boys that still run into me are now in their 30's or more. It is rare that I give them a harsh criticism, but when they need it, they get it. ;D It doesn't change our friendship in the least. But there aren't many of the young ones around anymore that seem to get off the couch. I tried to befriend the kid across the road, but he wants to wear gloves if he is going to be near any dirt and he is afraid if I put a tool in his hand. He asks his Dad, and he is all about not getting dirty either. Go figure folks out? You try but.....

[thecfarm]

SawyerTed,I knew the difference and many of my friends did too at age 16. What helped me was my older brother was 9 years older. I was the wrench go gotta. ;D  Or Ray's hand are smaller,he can get that bolt started. ;D
I am not saying nothing bad about the young kids,I have no idea who they follow around,if anybody. : I try to teach the ones at the store what I know. Which does not take long. :D
I worked for the YCC,government for 2 summers,at a national park.This was the last 2 years of high school.I kinda got elected to help build a trail with big rocks. None of them understood leverage. We could not use equipment to put the rocks in place. In fact I was even in charge of choosing what rocks got hauled to the trail. Some kids had no idea how to even use a shovel,or how to cut bushes with lopers. That was a eye opener for this country boy. I thought everyone knew how to do that stuff. ;D 

[Nebraska]

My best friend growing up was an "old man" two doors over, he taught me a lot about life. We spent a lot of time fishing, hunting doves,ducks and pheasants, going to watch the sandhill crane migration in the spring, shooting fireworks, and generally just talking or goofing off.  His namesake "Ted" graduated from college last Saturday starts his job the sixth of January.  I hope someday I can return the favor. 
I read Field and Stream and Outdoor Life cover to cover every month as a boy. I don't have EdZ ern's books but Pat Mc Manus is on the shelf. Bless all of you who can be an old man in a boys(or a young lady's)  life you make a difference and they will be a better "man" for it.  

[ManjiSann]

I've met a few people that don't have a clue how to use a hammer or what a phillips screw driver is. It's a little hard for me as my step son has zero inclination to learn this type of skill nor does my little brother who is 12 years younger than me. My little brother went to college and is a computer programmer so I guess he figures he'll pay people to do this stuff. I'm not speaking bad about him, he works for his money and he made different choices (wiser in many ways) than I did. I'm just saying I struggle to comprehend not wanting to do stuff myself... though as I type this the thought comes to me how often I'd rather pay the mechanic to fix my cars... I can do automotive I just don't enjoy it... ok maybe I do have more of an understanding that I thought. Anyhow weird tangent over, I've had to learn it's just not everyone's cup of tea. 

My step son and I have agreed I'll leave him alone about it for the most part so long as the things I deem he must know, like changing a tire, he won't fight me on and will learn. So far he's been a good sport about it. He's come home a few times to a load of fresh milled boards I've asked him to haul in the basement to dry. Once he gets his music worked out...seriously how long does it take to find a decent song??... he hauls it down without complaint. He's a good kid, just has different goals than I do and I struggle to understand sometimes. 

I've recently realized I'm not very patient nor a good mentor (I plan to work on both of those skill sets  :P ) so want to say to those who have been the "old guy next door" thank you. I was a scout and I didn't realize how much work and passion those men put into it nor did I appreciate it till I was much older. Now my old scout master and that guy next door hold positions of honor and respect in my mind and memories. It's funny, I met up with them a few years back and they are a lot shorter than I remember but yet when I think about them they are still 10 feet tall. My point is, you gents make a difference and I thank you.

OG, looks like it's coming along nice! Be way cool to see it when it's done!

Well Merry Christmas to all, or whatever your holiday of choice is, and be safe!

Brandon 

[WV Sawmiller]

   I was very fortunate growing up to have an old man mentor me. He was like an adopted grandfather and his wife was closer to me than my grandmothers. He taught me a lot about catfishing, hunting, trapping , beekeeping, etc. When we moved here my son used to hang out with the old man who bought the across the road from us and I could relate to that. He'd help him with his cows and just sit and talk for hours and both are better men for the time they spent together.

[Old Greenhorn]

  I was very fortunate growing up to have an old man mentor me. He was like an adopted grandfather and his wife was closer to me than my grandmothers. He taught me a lot about catfishing, hunting, trapping , beekeeping, etc. When we moved here my son used to hang out with the old man who bought the across the road from us and I could relate to that. He'd help him with his cows and just sit and talk for hours and both are better men for the time they spent together.

Brandon, first let me say that it is very difficult to mentor your own son because the relationship is so complicated and I am not putting step-sons in a different category because I have never had one and I don't think I would treat one any different than my own. But I could be wrong on that. When I was in my second heavy tour in Scouting, my son was in the Troop I Soutmastered. We had other adults with their own boys and we (the adults) had this discussion about mentoring your own boy and and came up with the idea of 'swapping kids'. i.e. I would spend time with my friends son, and he would hang out with mine. It worked out very well, was easier on the boys and easier on us. We kept that going until they aged out. I still see one of those boys at least once a month now and he speaks highly of me to others I am told. The point is, there are some things a Father can't do no matter how hard he tries. That's whu God gave us neighbors and adopted grandfathers I think. As a side note: my kids were always a little annoyed because their friends would tell them they had a 'cool Dad'. My kids could never see me in that light.  ;D
WV you had a cool key statement in there: "and both are better men for the time they spent together" emphasis should be on the word BOTH. It's a 2 way street. I have tremendously enjoyed the time I have had sharing adventures with youngsters. I truly am the better man for that time spent.

[Magicman]

I don't believe that there is a "one size fits all" because each of us are still individuals.  Quality seeds planted when your Son(s) are young have a chance of maturing as you both get older and the Father gets wiser.  Yup, it happens after the Son experiences a few painful learning experiences.  Be there for him but not with a "told you so" attitude.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well Christmas is pretty much done, we had a great family time yesterday, but back at it today. I had to go to home despot and get a larger spade drill than I had in my set and a new 1/2 masonry bit, the other one is shot. Got to work by 10 and got all the posts secured to the walls except one. I did cut the board I am using for that stitch to an existing wall, but it had some ice on it and I want that to at least melt and dry off a bit. It is prepped and ready to nail. 


 

Then I got the drawers back in the work bench now that I am pretty sure i won't have to move it again (for a while). That was a little fiasco because all the drawers are not the same size, vary by 1/8"  here and there. But it's done.



 

Then I hooked up that rescued little trailer and started bringing in all the framing lumber so the ice could melt off and it could dry a bit. This is the load with the big 6x10 header. That trailer worked out just dandy, nice and low.



 

Then I got the first header up and tied that to the outside wall with 5 1/3 tapcons. It took a long time to plane the section over the door swing for clearance. I could have just cut a square notch, but I wanted to make it sort of disappear so I planed a long swale into it that really does not show that I removed any material, but in reality I took about 1/4 inch.



 
 That's my son looking dubiously at my work. (He thinks I over engineer stuff.)  At this point it was 6pm and time for dinner. But I was both tired and on a little roll, so after dinner I went back out and cut the sister header for the first and hung that over the door and repeated the marking and shaving process. I only had to put the one up 3 times before the door swung freely and I left it up the last time. I am searching for the right size nails to attach it with. I know I have 50# of them somewhere. ;D I was tired at this point and it was 9pm, so I just took the planer and put mitered corners on that stitch board and sanded the face and edges so it's look pretty.  I will score this as a fair days work for an older guy and I am happy with what I got done. Rain expected tomorrow, so I am gad I got all the framing wood inside.



 

It's a little tight in the shop, but very workable. Also tomorrow I promised the wife that we would do our 'movie day' which is something we have done for years during the holiday week. There is a family across the river in Red Hook that owns a large piece of property where they put up a movie theater and also have a place where they sell old items reclaimed from estates and clean-outs. It's called Hoffman's Barn and they have some good stuff. We spend an hour or so going through the 'barn' then catch a movie across the parking lot. I know a guy that works there and they may have some table legs I can use on slabs. So it will be a useful trip at some level, but the best I can hope for is a few hours in the evening out in the shop. Maybe a few in the morning before we leave. 
 Progress is being made. I hope to have the framing done on Saturday, depending on how long it takes to cut and set that big beam. Then I turn to the flooring which again will have a slow start as I arrange for a planer loan. I am not quite sure I have enough material for the floor, but a quick inventory tonight tells me I am good on the framing BOM, so that other log I have left can be flooring and should certainly put me over the top (I think).  I am pegging the completion date at 1/5, lets see now I do.

[ManjiSann]

OG, I don't have a biological son so I admit I'm making some assumptions here but I agree with you as far as step son being no different. At least I feel like I treat them the same as if they were my own. You and Magicman make some good points and I appreciate you both sharing your wisdom and experience with me  :P

The loft is looking real good! I laughed about your son thinking you over engineer stuff as I have the same mind set about engineering. My sister once told me she often has a project and things "I bet Brandon could do this quick..." then her next thought is "Do I need it to survive the zombie apocalypse?" If the answer is no she either does it herself or finds someone else to do it  :D :D  I tend to very much overdo things. I chalk it up to knowing I'm ignorant of details of load stress, weight carrying abilities, etc. So I build things more robust so I have a large margin for error. It also stems from not liking to redo things, I'm largely a set it and forget it sort of person. 

As I understand engineering, the swale instead of cutting a little box out of the header over the door was the correct choice. Sharp corners focus stress forces at the 90 degree corner and will cause a failure there whereas a rounded corner or arch gives the stresses nowhere to focus and so the forces are born equally around the radius. 

Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing the adventure with us!

Brandon 

[Magicman]

You are never too old to have a happy childhood.  ;D

[Old Greenhorn]

Well this was a weird day, work wise. I stuck to the plan and got in the shop around 7, but I had strict instructions to quit by 10. I nailed up that sister header, first with some 4"nails the old fashioned way, then with the air nailer for good measure. Then started the swale trim on the shelf. Because you can't buy joist hangers for full sized lumber and because those joists are way too heavy to hold in place to be nailed square and true, I came up with the idea to screw a 2x2 'shelf' on the bottom of the header to set the joists on. This means the top edge of that shelf has to be true if the joist top is to match the header when you set the joist. I mark the bottom edge location of each joist and then make sure the shelf hits the mark on each one as I go down the length and screw it in. Last time I bought KD 2x2 for this. This time I made full sized ones. So I spent the morning working on the first one. I power planed it to make it look clean, then I had to match that swale which took pretty much the same amount of time as the headers.
This photo shows the trimming over the door and if you look close you can see the radial swoop.



 

 Then I pre-drilled holes every 16" so there would be a screw under each joist. I kind of hit a bump when I came up against driving the screws into hardwood. Easy fix, I just have to back up and punt but I looked at the clock and I was out of time. Happy wife, happy life, so I shut down and came in for an early meal before we headed out for the day.


 
This photo (above) shows the header arrangement with the shelf not yet secured. By the way Brandon, I use the planer technique because it was easiest and looked good because it fades in and out. Also, I have never tried that before, so I figured it was time. It had nothing to do with stress concerns. If square corners would have made a difference here I would be WAY too close to working limits. As it is, I am way over. I have one full 2x10 bolted to the wall, then a second 2x10 nailed to the first. That notch wouldn't mean anything. When I get done, this will feel like a cement floor. ;D

Anyway, we followed the plan outlined above, saw the new Star Wars movie, hit the barn (I bought an old hook from a peavy to make a MM log turner assist with and some railroad spikes for another project). We picked up lunch/dinner on the way home and ate at home, but then I got off track. I planned to go out in the shop and work the evening, but I sat in my chair for a few minutes and wound up taking a 2 hour nap. I guess I needed it. Now I cant wake up and surely don't feel like going to work. I don't even feel like getting wood from the pile and filling the stove. So I am taking the night off and will hit it hard in the morning, I have to make up a little time.
 Tomorrow is another day, right?

[SawyerTed]

For what it is worth, my son looks dubiously at my work and has for years!  :D  He's a professional civil engineer.....

[Old Greenhorn]

For what it is worth, my son looks dubiously at my work and has for years!  :D  He's a professional civil engineer.....

Well that could be read one of two ways..... I get a kick out of his questioning, but he has pretty much giving up. Nothing surprises him anymore... hardly. 

[SawyerTed]

 :D It's just what sons do, I think.   My daughters are relatively ruthless on their old man too! :D

[Old Greenhorn]

Man, it's starting to feel like all I do is work on this loft, every day all day. But it is coming together, I just keep jumping around a little. I figure I am around a half day behind my schedule at this point, but I keep moving. Today was a lot of over head work and my back and shoulders are reflecting that. Hardwood is heavy. I got all the long joists cut hung and nailed in place.


 


 I mis-cut one joist (an inch short) which I can use for the portion over the stairs and I thought I counted one extra, but it turns out I was short, so I had to mill a log after lunch. More on that log and my scaling research in another post to follow. That took me up to dinner. After dinner I went back and started working on the big header. The issue with this was that I didn't have a helper to hold back against that big timber saw. So on the first end, I used my little crank fork lift to hold a plank at the right height and put one end against and existing post and pushed the beam up against the other end. Worked great. I did the end cut and then the 4" deep notch cut. On the other end I was working in the opposite direction, and had nothing to push against, so I hog tied it to another post.


 

That worked pretty good also. Again, I  did the end cut and the 4" notch cut. Then got the smaller (normal size) circ saw and did the end face cut to finish the notch on each end. It came out looking pretty good and I am happy with the notches, no apologies. In the morning I will have to work on the rigging and figure out how easy this will be to move. If my plan works, I should be able to set this beam myself. But I have to do some cleanup first, the shop is getting smaller by the hour with all the scraps, lumber, tools, ladders, sawdust, etc.



 

All in all not as fast as I would like to be moving, but it was a productive day.

[Old Greenhorn]

 The columns should read as follows: Log#, SED (small end diameter), Len (Length), Doyle, Int1, Int2, and Int3 for the 3 different sources used.

Log#     SED      Len     Doyle     Int1     Int2     Int3
1          14"          12'      75          83      100      102
2          13"         8'        41          30       55        58
3          10"         8'        18          22        30       32
4          15"         12'      91          90        115     118
Totals                           225        225       300     310

 I am going to try to track this through the milling cycle so I can see exactly what I do get from each of those 4 logs. I figure that will be where the truth will begin to reveal itself. 

OK so back on December sixth I made the above post. I have cut out a lot in the quote, but you can go back and look at it. The basic idea was to scale some logs and use the various scaling systems to estimate the amount of board feet. Then keep good notes as each log was milled and record the actual yield. I finished the last log today. I had to make adjustments on log number 4 (blue text are changes) because when I cut the log off the stem it measured and scaled up differently. I wanted to keep the results accurate. i added a column in read for the actual yields. SO here are the results:
Log#     SED      Len     Doyle     Int1     Int2     Int3       Actual
1          14"          12'      75          83      100      102       100
2          13"         8'        41          30       55        58         32    This log had defects causing loss, got some stickers which I did not count in the tally.
3          10"         8'        18          22        30       32         41
4          17"         12'     127         n/a       150     154       152
Totals                           225        225       300     310       325

The scale sources were as follows: The Doyle scale was industry standard, all sources gave the same numbers. The 'Int1' came from a Norwood chart and was so far off I discounted it. The numbers don't seem to follow the calculations. The 'Int2' came from Woodweb's online calculator. The 'Int3' came from the forestry forum calculator and I find that by far to be the most consistent and accurate. The bottom line for me is that I now have a scaling source I can trust. Thankfully, it's right here. 8)

Anyway, I sort of promised I would share the results. Maybe this is of interest to some as it was to me. I like having numbers and calculations I can rely on and know if they will be a little high or a little low. This is big stuff for little me.  I have simple needs.

[Ljohnsaw]

This is big stuff for little me. I have simple needs.

I did the same for the first two years of milling for my cabin.  It was interesting but time consuming.  What I discovered is that I can do about 500-600 bd-ft a day by myself (depending on the logs), 750 on one really good day with good logs and 1,000 with a good helper.  Manual mill with a SkyTrak to bring logs/haul lumber & beams/remove waste.

[Old Greenhorn]

Ah yes, that is the next question for me, but it will have to wait for a while until I have some logs stacked up. For me right now it was just a question of figuring how how many logs I would need for a given BOM. Productivity estimates will come soon for me, but with a manual mill, I am dubious I can hit your numbers. :D

[Old Greenhorn]

Man I am tired and sore tonight! It's getting harder and harder to go out each morning because It is starting to feel like a job. ;D Go the big beam prepped and the last header set before I called my neighbor for help. He came over and I had the beam on my lift rig in general position, but it was touch and go with the capacity of the lift, it's stability, and the height. We did a pre-job risk assessment, (if anything goes sideways: RUN!) and my neighbor played spotter because I couldn't see the ends of the beam. Alignment was tricky, but it went right in. I was just concerned about moving the rig with the beam at full height, it was shaky. Worked like a charm and I could have done it alone, but who would call 911 if it went wrong? ;D 
The lift rig.


 

SO up it went and set. My neighbor left once it was in and I set to securing it. Those 10 inch spike are a bear for an old man to drive.



 

Got that done and set to finishing up the framing work. I had to move some electrical things around and relocate the air hose reel, everything takes time. But the framing was done.


 

Man, I am pretty happy with that front beam. It's overkill, but fun anyway. When I am dead or move on, I hope whoever buys this place enjoys it. I know I bought the place because of the shop building, I think  somebody else will do the same.


 

I brought in all the wood I have for the decking I brought inside and piled and stickered on the loft. Looks like I would have enough it a did it square, but I know I will need more with the loss doing it on a 45° angle. 



 

I also like the way it is shaping up. The old loft (built 2 years ago during Thanksgiving week) is going to tie in nicely with the new loft.



 

I can't wait to get this finished and start cleaning up, doing the railing, and hanging tools on the wall and moving machines in place. Just in time for the cold part of the winter. I do have to get more fuel oil. ;D

I am sore from swinging a sledge hammer overhead and a few hundred steps up and down the ladder whacking stuff in place. I think I am taking the evening off.

[Ljohnsaw]

I am pretty happy with that front beam. It's overkill, but fun anyway.

You can always use it for an engine hoist!

[Old Greenhorn]

I am pretty happy with that front beam. It's overkill, but fun anyway.

You can always use it for an engine hoist!

For a small car maybe, but those turbo diesels are pretty heavy. ;D It is nice to bring in a lawn tractor and put a hook on it and get it up in the air to work on though. I could do it, so I did. I think the opportunities will present themselves as time goes on. When I fill in the grease pit right in front and under this loft I embedded a bar below grade to provide a winch point. That turned out to be pretty handy for pulling in dead vehicles, but it seemed silly at the time. I just wanted to try it.

[Nebraska]

Looking good glad you have so much to show for your  break.   You are making that shop awfully nice looking.

[Old Greenhorn]

Looking good glad you have so much to show for your  break.   You are making that shop awfully nice looking.

Well Thanks Nebraska. I had not thought of it that way, but your saying so made me feel pretty good.   I don't like sitting around.  I still feel that I am a day and a half behind my overall timeline and that 1/5 completion goal is slipping away fast. Not a big deal, just part of learning. As for nice looking. I am just trying for functional and useful, which it really hasn't been for me because it is so cluttered. I have to pull machines out to use them, then put them back. I can only do one project at a time because of that and it makes me crazy (OK, short trip, I know).
 I have been breathing too much sawdust (yeah, I should try a mask thingy) and not sleeping well because I can't breath at night. So up at 4am again this morning drinking coffee. This will likely be a 2 pot day, given the weather.
 For the first time in several weeks, I have no idea what I am going to do today. I am still trying to arrange for that planer, but the guy hasn't told me his schedule yet. I do have to re-enter and explore the wiring in the shop and figure out where that 220 circuit went to that I disconnected years ago. (The previous owner had run 220 to a 15a 110v outlet. When I plugged in a drill that thing sure worked well, for a while. ;D >:(. ) I have a lot of cleaning up to do before moving forward, so a full day either way, just not sure now where I will start until I get out there.