Roundup Usage Questions

[bigtrees]

Starting to learn my way around using herbicides. Got the full gamuet of PPE, so no health concerns there.

Went to the backyard and found some weeds (crabgrass) mixed in with desireable plants. Mixed up a solution of 1 oz 51% glysophate to 1/2 gallon water, and painted some roundup on the weed plants about 3-4 days ago. The plants look as healthy as ever? Next I increased the concentration by adding another oz of Roundup to the 1/2 gallon of water, and painted on more weeds. That was 2 days ago. Still not change.


Information I read online said that Roundup will start to make weeds wilt in 6 hours. 

Wondering if I just need to be more patient to see results, or if I did anything else wrong? I didn't think it was that complex to use.

[Larry]

I mix at 2.5 ounces/gallon which I think is a little on the strong side.  I usually don't see any effect on the weeds for a week, sometimes 10 days.  They don't really wilt but start to yellow or loose color.

The length of time before the weeds die is quite dependent on growing conditions and the air temperature.  I get best results when the temperature is 60 degrees or higher for 24 hours after applying it.

[Southside]

Congratulations, you have discovered Roundup resistant crab grass. Not really a surprise given the widespread use of Roundup. Palmer pigweed, mares tail, and a host of other "weeds" are no longer controlled by Monsanto. The genie is out of the bottle. 

[Woodpecker52]

Need to treat water usually with ammonia sulfate or vinegar  when using roundup.  If not it will react with tap water and be less effective.  Say so on directions that no one ever reads.

[YellowHammer]

I use it for my Roundup Ready crops, (I have a Monsanto Applicator’s Registration) and for basic application use 1 qt per acre at 15 gallons of water per acre) watever that comes out per gallon.  That usually takes two weeks for a solid kill, wilting within a week.  Basically, mix as per the instructions and if your are more concentrated than that, it will work.

It kills by essentially causing overgrowth of the plant structures, and requires the plants to be actively growing to be most effective.  It is pretty mean but only has an activity rate of about 24 hours, when it becomes inactive and bonds with the soil, that’s why it’s not on the restricted herbicide use list, little residual activity.  It’s a contact spray.

However, if you read the recents reports, there is some potential danger from it, so spray downwind and take a shower afterward which is a good idea handling any herbicide or pesticide. 

There are some resistant species it won’t touch, as mentioned, Morning Glory being one of them, which is genetically grafted to some Roundup Ready crops.

[Ed_K]

However, if you read the recents reports, there is some potential danger from it, so spray downwind and take a shower afterward which is a good idea handling any herbicide or pesticide.

 X2 I can't prove it but it could be why I have Multiple Meyloma blood cell cancer. So be extra careful using any kind of glyphosate.

[RAYAR]

Monsanto, recently bought out by Bayer, has known for decades and kept from public knowledge that their Glyphosate causes cancer. They always provided their own "concocted" scientific research to hide this. Monsanto also has former employees in charge of the EPA. Now take a moment to think about that. This is just a small bit of Monsanto's corrupt dealings in what they try to push onto the public's (sheeple's) knowledge of their products.

[pine]

Several errors in some of the above posts. 

Glyphosate is a Group 9 herbicide meaning it is a EPSA synthase inhibitor. 
Basically glyphosate stops a specific enzyme pathway, the shikimic acid pathway.

It is NOT a contact herbicide.  It is a translocated herbicide.
Herbicides that are absorbed but not translocated are called contact herbicides, while herbicides that translocate to shoot or root meristems are called systemic herbicides.

There are several allowed concentrations for application to different species. However using a concentration that is higher than the label allows is a violation of both federal and state laws.  In my state it is up to $7500 per violation/incident.  The concept of "if a little is good more is better" is not only a fallacy in herbicide efficacy it is a violation of the law.  Unfortunately many folks think that way.  Not only is it bad for the environment and it is bad for what they are trying to do and it can have long term effects.

Roundup bought at the store in quart sizes almost always has a surfactant already mixed in.  When buying at the larger sizes and higher concentration like 41% or 50.2% you will need in most cases a surfactant to achieve best efficacy. 

AGAIN READ THE LABEL

As to the recent court cases.  No herbicide/pesticide is harmless. 
They all have a "signal word" : DANGER-POISON, DANGER, WARNING, CAUTION. 
The EPA states that glyphosate used as labeled is safe. 
The EPA, the European Food Safety Authority, the European Chemicals Agency all state that it is safe to use as labeled. 
The World Health Organization official position is that it is "probably carcinogenic in humans".
I am not going to say that any of them can be trusted. 
Those that swear the EPA is golden now say the EPA is corrupt. 
Those that say the EPA is full of "fill in the blank" now say that since the EPA says it is safe it must be safe.

The judge allowed in questionable evidence to support the plaintiff.  The judge also disallowed evidence that supported the defendant (Bayer/Monsanto).  That will be evaluated in appeals court.  Who knows where that will go.

Bottom line folks read the label, follow the label, don't make up your own concentration doses, don't make up your own rules. 
It is a violation of the law and is harmful not only to you but to the environment and will probably be counter-productive to your end goals.

By the way, I am licensed by our government not the manufacturer to apply pesticides.  Not only did I have to pass quite a few tests but I have to have continuing education (CE) courses every year to maintain that certification.

Sorry about the long post but I get tired of false information being put out there.  It is not just the law it is our planet's health we are talking about.

[Ianab]

"May Cause Cancer in California" is something that I take with a grain of salt. Because apparently so does bacon, and sunshine...  I sure as heck aren't giving those up completely. 

I certainly try and avoid direct contact with Roundup, sensible precautions etc. Don't spray yourself, wash up afterwards etc. Same as most chemicals. 

I use it for the random weeds that crop up around the house, mixed as directed, and spot sprayed. Nothing seems to happen for a couple of days, then they start looking a bit sick, and after a week you know that it's worked. 

But it's a bit like the people looking for "non-toxic" wood preservatives. Hang on, what you want is something that's highly toxic to insects and fungus, but 100% safe for humans? Well Borate sort of fits the bill, but it still says "poisonous" on the label, and if you feed enough to a lab rat it will probably die.  Woods that are "naturally decay resistant" (Cedar etc) actually rely on a heap of different and toxic chemicals. It's naturally present in the wood, but people have all sorts of reactions to it. 

There is a new weedkiller on the market that uses an allelopathic chemical derived from pine needles (notice how not much grows through a bed of pine needles). It's a "natural" chemical, but does that make it safe? I dunno...

[Southside]

Well, for what it's worth spraying round up over a field of wheat to dessicate it and get a uniform and earlier dry down pre harvest has become common practice in these parts. Saw plenty of it yesterday. It's EPA legal, and in my opinion completely unethical and a big part of why glypohsate shows up in so many food samples now.  So yea, Monsanto is an issue. 

[Woodpecker52]

The delta is drenched in it every year, also DDT and Toxifene still at the bottom of lakes and sloughs, would not eat a fish from them. Yet would eat the farm raised catfish!

[Furu]

Well, for what it's worth spraying round up over a field of wheat to dessicate it and get a uniform and earlier dry down pre harvest has become common practice in these parts. Saw plenty of it yesterday. It's EPA legal, and in my opinion completely unethical and a big part of why glypohsate shows up in so many food samples now.  So yea, Monsanto is an issue.

I was not aware that that much wheat was planted and harvested in Virginia.  It is especially interesting that in late May they are already harvesting wheat in Virginia.  Seems rather early!
As an aside:
http://kswheat.com/the-truth-about-roundup-and-wheat-support-material
"Spraying Roundup on U.S. wheat crops prior to harvest is an uncommon practice; furthermore, according to label directions, wheat farmers must wait to harvest a crop until a minimum of 14 days after a glyphosate-based application.
The claims that Roundup agricultural herbicides are commonly doused on wheat crops a few days before harvest is not accurate. It is not routine for U.S. wheat producers to use Roundup, or other formulations of glyphosate, for pre-harvest applications. Although Roundup is labeled for pre-harvest applications at least 14 days before harvest as a desiccant or in order to control perennial weeds, it is uncommon for U.S. producers to make that application. As a point of clarification, in Canada it is more common for label-approved pre-harvest applications of Roundup brand herbicides due to the short growing season."


Not saying that it does not happen, as it does up in Canada due to the shorter growing season but it is not common in the US and I highly doubt that it has happened "yesterday", as claimed, on a wheat field anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere.
When agronomists are asked about using glyphosate as a desiccant, the standard response is: “glyphosate is not a desiccant,” which is tactful way of saying, “if a producer plans to desiccate, he should use an actual desiccant.”

Facts and not anecdotal hyperbole are much more worthwhile while discussing this topic.

[btulloh]

In Virginia there's a fair amount of winter wheat grown.  It gets combined usually in June and then late beans go in behind it.

I can't say about anywhere else, but right here on my place, the wheat MAY get a dose of Roundup prior to harvest but only to eliminate any green weed material that may have come up.  This is done to keep the combine from gagging on green material.  It is done AT LEAST 2 weeks before combining and usually a bit longer so that it not only kills the green stuff, but also lets the dead green stuff lose some height before combining.  Generally it's only done when absolutely necessary because it is an expense and reduces the profit.  

[Southside]

Well, y'all need to make the drive to south side Virginia and look around. Perfectly brown wheat fields with sprayer tracks about 200' apart running through the fields. It is common and yes I saw it yesterday, not hyperbole since I drove about 100 miles back from a portable job. 

Come fall the same fields which will have Roundup Ready soybeans planted in them will be desicated with 2,4-D for the same reason. 

Maybe guys wait the full 14 days, maybe they don't to harvest the crop. Point is there is residual in the material, I don't care what Bayer says, the proof is in the end product testing when glyphosate shows up. 

The funny thing is that every tank of milk I ship is tested for antibiotic residue and if I ship a hot load I will be in a world of hurt, not the same for the grain operations. 

[Roxie]

@bigtrees I noticed you are in Montana, and wondered what the temperature was when you used the Roundup?  My own experience has been that even though it says best to use at 65 degrees and up, it works faster at 80 degrees.  Also, shaded areas are slower to react than sunny spots. 

[btulloh]

Last year was unusual, to say the least.  Here in my fields (that are leased to somebody) it was too wet to combine the beans.  They finally got in there with the combine on Dec. 28th. when there was a two or three day window and the condition of the beans and the ground would allow.  I doubt they got 12 bushels/acre.  I didn't ask.  It was way too late to plant wheat, and the winter conditions wouldn't have been very good anyway.  

Once it started warming up, all sorts of things started coming up.  Besides all the junk, there was a really good stand of volunteer winter wheat.  It sort of outgrew everything else and looked really good, but between being volunteer and getting a late start, the seed heads were of no consequence.  It all looked good, just looking out the window, but there was nothing there of any value.   Three weeks ago it got sprayed (it was about half-turned at that point) and a week later the beans got drilled in.  The beans are looking good and they're about three inches tall, but we need some rain.  

That's just what I see right here outside my window.  I don't have any idea what's going on somewhere else, other than all the reports I hear about wet weather and late planting in the middle of the country.  I'm not trying to start an argument, and I'm in no position to debate this Roundup thing.  It was a strange growing season here last year, and I hope everyone makes out this year.

[YellowHammer]

Well, y'all need to make the drive to south side Virginia and look around. Perfectly brown wheat fields with sprayer tracks about 200' apart running through the fields. It is common and yes I saw it yesterday, not hyperbole since I drove about 100 miles back from a portable job.

@Southside 
Hey Southside, do the wheat fields in your area look like mine? I bet they do.  I live in North Alabama, drove 45 miles this morning, and sure enough, just as you describe, the wheat fields I passed are brown, look ready to harvest, and because I was looking specifically due to this topic, I noticed ALL had fresh tractor tire tracks evenly spaced in the fields.  So I took a few pictures.  In Alabama, which is another state not known for its wheat, but known for its soybeans, planting winter wheat in the fall, harvesting in the spring, and then no till drilling soybeans is very common.  I do not know what was sprayed, but certainly, some kind of crop manipulation had happened very recently. 
 

 
 


I went to look at my jugs of Roundup Max I use on my corn, which on the front label, as shown says, "Specially formulated for Roundup Ready Crops."  However, it is also labeled for use on non Roundup Ready crops for specific purposes.


 
In the usage booklet, below, it clearly says "This product provides weed control prior to harvest" for wheat.  It also says there is only a 7 day restriction "between application and harvest or grazing" for wheat, specifically.


 
Also, I found this interesting reading in the National Association of Wheat Growers publication, 
The Facts About Glyphosate, Part 5: Glyphosate Use in Wheat ? A Recap | National Association of Wheat GrowersUSDA data
"USDA data shows the percentage of no-till wheat acres has increased from less than 5 percent to more than 20 percent of total acres in the northern and central Great Plains since 1989 (Hansen et al., 2012). An increase in no-till acres has been made possible by the increased use of pre-emergence glyphosate in order to manage harmful weeds."


   

[Southside]

Yup, that's what they look like. Normally our wheat is combined around June 23, from past year observations this spray down gets the wheat off a week or two earlier. 

I have seen some guys spray then round bales the fields already, yup that won't get into the food stream. 

[pine]

It is interesting that folks seem to use without much regard the term Roundup.  Yes I use the term gylophosate in a very generic fashion as well.  The real problem is there are different formulations of glyphosate based products by many manufacturers even under the Bayer AG (Monosanto) Brand name of Roundup.  The problem is just the brand name of Roundup is not used much by anyone anymore.  
For example:
The new Roundup For Lawns does not even contain glyphosate.   Folks still call it Roundup

In this thread Roundup Max has been used a couple of times.  There is no Roundup Max as far as I know: there is a Roundup ProMax there is a Roundup PowerMax.  
Both have
Glyphosate, N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine, in the form of its potassium salt ................................... 48.7%
along with the inert ingredients which are not identified.
Problem is you can not by label instructions use Roundup ProMax on crops but you can use Roundup PowerMax on crops. To do otherwise is a violation.  

Roundup ProMax
The complere broad-spectrum postemergence professional herbicide for non-crop, industriual, turf and ornamental weed control.

Roundup PowerMax
Herbicide for Roundup Ready® CropsSelective broad-spectrum weed control in Roundup Ready® cropsNon-selective, broad-spectrum weed control for many agricultural systems and farmsteads

You have to know what you are using and can not use a generic descriptor and not confuse folks that do not understand just how important it is to read the label for exactly what you have not what you are told by someone using a non exact brand name descriptor.
There is a lot more evidence coming to light that the so called inert ingredients are not as inert as the name implies.

[btulloh]

Bigtrees posted his question on 28th. Seems like it was longer ago. So it’s been four or five days since his initial application and his victims should be showing signs. A little longer for some weeds.

Any report?

[Roxie]

I've been wondering if he's sorry that he asked. 

[Woodpecker52]

As far as I am concerned I would not touch roundup with a ten foot pole!  Farmers wife just down the road in her early 30's large fields all around the house just got breast cancer, husband around chemicals all year long.  Greenwood is a hot zone for cancer,  Also with the use of BT crops rare to see any crickets, grasshoppers,  butterflies, moths and forget any bees.  Farmers fields look like dead zones, no body to soil, compacts like concrete after a rain, turns green from the fertilizer runoff, all the runoff water turns green.  My son in law farms 5,300 acres of delta with a crew of 7 and  has massive computer laden, def chocked JD, 2 story spray rigs which are going all the time. They can not afford not to spray, fert, use genetic crops because the margins are so thin.  What is my point, EDITED BY ADMIN if I know just know this something that causes a plant to grow itself to death, I don't want it near me, on me, or in me period!  Something genetically modified like a tomato with fish genes, no way in me!,  Toxic corn pollen turning the sky yellow just ain"t right!!!  And having massive insect die offs just says to me it ain" right.  

[RPF2509]

Thanks Pine for trying to clarify.  There are lots of different formulations of herbicides on the market.  Read the label, wear your PPE.  Try to understand the science behind what you are using.  Seek the advice of experts.  Generally your local county ag commissioner has the right info.  There is a lot of misinformation out there.  Remember a jury of 12 is not a panel of experts.

[Peter Drouin]

What does roundup do for the bees? Does it get in the honey too? Does it kill the worms/ snakes?
Ann and I have all organic land. But I'm not harvesting 100 ac.

[John Mc]

Roundup bought at the store in quart sizes almost always has a surfactant already mixed in. When buying at the larger sizes and higher concentration like 41% or 50.2% you will need in most cases a surfactant to achieve best efficacy.

 

What do you typically use for a surfactant? I don't do much foliar spray, but when I do, it's generally watered down from a jug of 41% or 50.2%. What have you found to be easiest and most effective?

Is a surfactant helpful when doing cut stump applications? I had always thought it made no difference for that, since the surface is freshly cut and "open", so have not added anything.

[btulloh]

I find it best to buy the surfactant that's formulated for the job.  It's cheap and not worth trying to save money by using dish soap or something.   Supposed to non-ionic.  Also low-suds, which a good thing.

[John Mc]

I find it best to buy the surfactant that's formulated for the job.

And that surfactant would be...?

[btulloh]

It’s sold as surfactant. Various trade names. Usually in the shelf next to all the weed killers. Ag store, not big box store.

[btulloh]

Here you go . . .



 

[pine]

Roundup bought at the store in quart sizes almost always has a surfactant already mixed in. When buying at the larger sizes and higher concentration like 41% or 50.2% you will need in most cases a surfactant to achieve best efficacy.

What do you typically use for a surfactant? I don't do much foliar spray, but when I do, it's generally watered down from a jug of 41% or 50.2%. What have you found to be easiest and most effective?

Is a surfactant helpful when doing cut stump applications? I had always thought it made no difference for that, since the surface is freshly cut and "open", so have not added anything.

@John Mc
I use several different ones depending upon what I am trying to do, the chemicals I am using, and the conditions and precipitation in the forecast.  
Having said that I really like LI700 from Loveland products. It works really well with glyphosate.  I probably use it more frequently than any other.
R-11 is also a good surfactant and in some situations MSO is a great one to use.
As to stump cut treatment and frill/hack and squirt I use triclopyr amine cut with water or triclopyr ester mixed with diesel and just paint the stump within a VERY short time after the cut.  I have used glyphosate but it is not as effective as the others and don't like it for that purpose.  Picloram which is the generic name for Tordon, works very well also.  
So to answer your question more directly I don't use a branded surfactant on cut stump treatment.

[Peter Drouin]

So no one knows what it doses to the bees.
There is a big lawsuit on that stuff I read in the newspaper.

[pine]

So no one knows what it doses to the bees.
There is a big lawsuit on that stuff I read in the newspaper.

Supposedly there is no impact on bees.....................  
There are some claims that it impacts the bees gut bacteria and weakens their immune system but there is no strong data as of yet.  Here is a report that has an interesting read.
https://entomologytoday.org/2015/10/13/glyphosate-acetamiprid-low-toxicity-honey-bees-2/

You can get a lawsuit on anything but science is what is worth looking at.  There are some interesting developments in the subject area.

[John Mc]

Thanks for the info @pine

Unfortunately, here in VT, the only herbicide you can buy without a license is glyphosate.

[Southside]

So no one knows what it doses to the bees.
There is a big lawsuit on that stuff I read in the newspaper.

Supposedly there is no impact on bees.....................  
There are some claims that it impacts the bees gut bacteria and weakens their immune system but there is no strong data as of yet.  Here is a report that has an interesting read.
https://entomologytoday.org/2015/10/13/glyphosate-acetamiprid-low-toxicity-honey-bees-2/

You can get a lawsuit on anything but science is what is worth looking at.  There are some interesting developments in the subject area.

It's funny how much faith is put in science when time and time again it has been proven that science is often influenced by dollars, as in who is paying for the study.  Take DDT or Thalidomide for example, the science said it was safe at the time, peak oil - whoops they missed that one.  The whole global warming, climate change, whatever it is called today debate, "science says" - then the other science says just the opposite.  Ever see the video of the 5 service members who stood under an atomic bomb when it detonated just to prove to the public there was "nothing to worry about"?  Do you know what eventually happened to all of them? Ever hear of the "Demon core" and all the top scientists who literally goofed around with it in the name of science until one day it went critical?  We don't know what we don't know.   
Anecdotal, yes, but I can tell you that my bees did better this spring (10 hives) than they have done in any other year I can recall.  One big change - nobody around could spray - it was too wet to get onto the fields.  All the rain we had last fall and winter actually made for more challenging conditions for the bees, but right now I have more honey than ever before, and have had a pile of swarms and made multiple splits as the hives are plumb full of bees.  I suspect part of it is due to the fact a lot of plants were able to flower given the lack of or eventual late, spraying which provided more food for the bees, but common sense also tells me that not getting covered with an inhibiting herbicide also played a role in survival and reduced hive contamination.      

[bigtrees]

OP back here.

Thanks for all of the responses.

My review of using Roundup (glysophate) is mixed so far. Back in Montana, we used some red cap stuff (18%) per the label concentration (6 oz per gallon). Doing the math, that seems to make a concentration of 1 oz glysophate per 128 oz water or .8%. According to my dad, this worked well on native plants and grasses.

Then, here in Seattle, I tried the Roundup using some RoundUp Pro Concentrate (50% glysophate). I mixed 1 oz in 64 fl oz, which would be about .8%. That didn't seem to work fast on the grasses were I sprayed, so I added another oz of concentrate to get the concentration up to 1.6%. Still hasn't worked great on the grasses - maybe 1/3 of them are dying.

Could be that I am impatient, or could be that I am only spraying the top 1/3 of the grass that is exposed (groundcover that I am trying to save covers the rest). I did spray the ground cover in a couple places and it killed that pretty good. Recently I sprayed some mint and some other random plants and it seems to be working well on them.

I think probably the Roundup is working fine, but I am not very patient. I thought that roundup worked in hours and apparently that is wrong information, it works over time but not right away. That's fine, just good for me to know.

I'm new to the managing plant growth and herbicide application. It's something new and fun, but of course, I'm taking great measures to stay safe wearing my PPE, etc.

[John Mc]

As mentioned earlier, if you are using the 50% concentrate, you may need to add a surfactant for it to be effective in a foliar spray. (The surfactant helps the glyphosate penetrate the surface of the leaf.)

[YellowHammer]

On my crops, I may not see a significant result in a week, death in two. 
 

[bigtrees]

As mentioned earlier, if you are using the 50% concentrate, you may need to add a surfactant for it to be effective in a foliar spray. (The surfactant helps the glyphosate penetrate the surface of the leaf.)

Good point.

[btulloh]

The label information will have a chart showing what concentration is required for specific weeds.  It can vary greatly.  There is also a category on there for SPOT SPRAYING that will have a concentration specifically for use in pump sprayers that is sort of compromise on the concentration.  This works well in general but may not be sufficient for tougher species.  There is no one size fits all.  The label will also mention "spray-to-wet" which means that typically the whole plant needs to be wetted with the spray.


ONE IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE:  Now the term ROUNDUP on a label can mean almost anything these days.  It has become a generic trade name by Bayer meaning "something to kill weeds, or possibly insects, or maybe contains fertilizer also".  So a discussion about "Roundup" is different than a discussion about glyphosate.

Read and follow the label for the product you are using, even though it is twenty pages of 4-point type (or smaller).  Get the pdf from the company if, like me, you can't read  the fine print.

The concentration you mentioned for starting sounds a little weak for general spot spraying, but I don't have the label for the product you're using.

Like YH said: visible signs in a week, dead in two weeks (for GLYPHOSATE)

Good luck, stay safe, and read the whole label.

[Woodpecker52]

On my open fields I cut them one time at the end of winter to knock back volunteer persimmon other than that the plants are for the birds, bees and butterflies  and fawns.  I NEVER would even consider roundup.  I do not even cut down dead trees since they are used by the woodpeckers and I have pileated ones all over my property.  I remember when you could hear the sound of bobwhite quail all over the countryside I have not heard them in about 10 years some say its because of fire ants and lack of cover from excessive mowing, clean farming etc.  I just think it is sad and at least I can give the animals under my stewartship  a wild unkept place to exist hoping to hear that bob white call again.