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Author Topic: Sharpener options for different bands?  (Read 2576 times)

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Offline Bandmill Bandit

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2019, 10:21:30 AM »
I am not sure who else makes a CBN style system BUT that is the best system i have seen to date and it is what I use. I have a 10° profiled wheel and a 7° "tickle wheel for the carbide turbos. That is all I need and when the last of my 10° blades are gone I am pretty sure my 10° wheel will be for sale.  
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Offline JB Griffin

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2019, 06:36:50 PM »
I use a cooks "sharpener" daily at work and dare not say how I feel about that thing here. I will state that bought a Wright and it is WAY more consistent and accurate than either of the sharperners mentioned by the op. Yet I would have been much better off buyin a wm bms250, much better off.

I go thru a suffolk red grindrock a week whichcosts +/- $20 times 50 wks a yr = $1000. With a cbn machine a better job could be done with 2 cbn wheels at a cost of $310 shipped.
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Offline alan gage

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2019, 10:39:11 AM »
I went ahead and bought the Timberking sharpener and Cooks single tooth setter. I realize it's not optimal but for the amount of sawing I do it's all I could justify. I got a chance last night to use my first sharpened blade and it seemed to be cutting great in knotty spruce.

I do have some questions about the drag sharpener though. I can't get it to completely follow the profile of my 4° Kasco blades. If I set it so it kisses the front edge of the tooth and follows the gullet it will only make it about 2/3 of the way up the back of the tooth before lifting clear. No matter what I do I can't get it to follow the entire way. I'm assuming this is due to the shape of the cam and that if I want it to follow my profile better I'll need to grind some off the cam.

What I've been going instead is first setting it up to sharpen the front of the tooth and gullet and then adjusting the advance arm so that it completely misses the front of the tooth and gullet but finishes up the back side of the tooth. It takes more passes but at least it's getting it.

The other issue I'm having is that when it sharpens up the back side of the tooth it's not always grinding the entire width so that one corner of the tooth will be left untouched. After two passes most of them will be sharpened the entire width but some still have one untouched corner. This seems to be caused by the set of the teeth since which corner remains untouched depends on which way the tooth is set. I'm assuming this is normal and that after a couple sharpenings all will be square.

Alan
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Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2019, 11:30:21 AM »
Alan,

There is quite a bit of adjustment variation available and they interact somewhat.  What thickness wheel are you using?  A 1/4" wide wheel will help.
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Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2019, 09:54:19 PM »
Alan, I kind a hate to chime in since I dont know anything about a timberking sharpener, but do you have the cam thats for a 4 degree Kasco blade?.  I have sharpened a few blades I didn't have the cam for and after a few sharpenings it takes the shape of the origional cam.  If you are dead set on wanting the origional shape ( 4 degree Kasco) you are gona need a cam jor that exact blade, or take a chance on reconfiguring it and maybe mess it up.  I don't see why it should miss one corner after you reset it though.  banjo
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Offline LeeB

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2019, 11:29:06 PM »
I agree about the 3/8" wheel vs the 1/4". I was never satisfied with my sharpening results or able to match the profile until I switched over to the thicker wheel. Only reason I can see that you aren't getting the full tip sharpened after setting is you must be taking a very light grind indeed.
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Offline ladylake

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2019, 08:04:22 AM »
I went ahead and bought the Timberking sharpener and Cooks single tooth setter. I realize it's not optimal but for the amount of sawing I do it's all I could justify. I got a chance last night to use my first sharpened blade and it seemed to be cutting great in knotty spruce.

I do have some questions about the drag sharpener though. I can't get it to completely follow the profile of my 4° Kasco blades. If I set it so it kisses the front edge of the tooth and follows the gullet it will only make it about 2/3 of the way up the back of the tooth before lifting clear. No matter what I do I can't get it to follow the entire way. I'm assuming this is due to the shape of the cam and that if I want it to follow my profile better I'll need to grind some off the cam.

What I've been going instead is first setting it up to sharpen the front of the tooth and gullet and then adjusting the advance arm so that it completely misses the front of the tooth and gullet but finishes up the back side of the tooth. It takes more passes but at least it's getting it.

The other issue I'm having is that when it sharpens up the back side of the tooth it's not always grinding the entire width so that one corner of the tooth will be left untouched. After two passes most of them will be sharpened the entire width but some still have one untouched corner. This seems to be caused by the set of the teeth since which corner remains untouched depends on which way the tooth is set. I'm assuming this is normal and that after a couple sharpenings all will be square.

Alan
   
 I have a Wright sharpener so don't know for sure,  Sounds like the way you have it set it's making the gullet too deep and not hitting the tip of the tooth on the way up.  On mine the rod that pushes the head up will control the gullet dept. by  moving it in or out on the arm that pushes the head up.   Steve
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Offline Ben Cut-wright

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2019, 10:55:36 AM »
Wow, you got some valuable replies, Alan.   Wish I had read/heard/been advised as well as you were here.  Got a brand new in the box WM sharpener with the LT40HD when I bought it.  Drug my feet for some time before delving into #teaching myself how to operate it.  It's and ongoing experience in the ART, but I'm getting there.  Oh, I can quickly run a band through it now and am very pleased with the results.  BUT.....it ain't like the CBN, which takes most of the operator required skill and nearly constant monitoring out of sharpening bands. 

Back to the replies:   Each reply has a either a golden tip or a gem of insight not even buried within, laid right there for your taking.  Hard to find much to add other than keep them all in mind and someday go back and see just how valuable their content really was. Not saying you don't appreciate the advice, because I truly know you do, just to compare the info after some personal experience on your journey.  Several members provided advice that I would have taken too little heed.  So much easier to evaluate after making my own mistakes and wasting so much time because I didn't know what I didn't know. Example, the dang thing said it was "automatic", it was not, but I continued to expect it would somehow become automatic. 

Now you have made your choice and had some experience with that choice, you can better compare what others have said, especially those who have operated the differently designed sharpeners.  You WILL be able to sharpen bands very well with what you have as you gain skill in using it.  Even so, the advantages of the better designs will quickly become apparent.

There were comments about cams and dressing the stones and the interactions between settings when using your style of sharpener.  These areas caused me most of my head scratching when I was trying to teach myself how to sharpen.  I had the manuals, had the internet, and have decades of experience in figuring out how machinery works.  There is much to account for, much to consider, and even choices in procedure to make when sharpening bands that add to what at first seemed to me like a quagmire.  IT isn't and you are probably more adept at juggling those factors than most. 

One point that others touched on but did not elaborate is shaping the grindstone in order to "grind the back of the tooth".  Perhaps a wider stone as suggested might resolve the issue you are having, don't know.  Whether the fault lies with the cam or the stone or your technique should be discovered before attempts are made to "fix" the wrong component or technique.  Too much material shaped-off the 'back-side' surface of the stone will prevent the stone from contacting the backside of the tooth. 


Your work-around will not correct the process and add to what is already a complex procedure. 

Are you 'setting then sharpening', or 'sharpening then setting"?  I used to do both as a check/correct until I learned from experience how much to over-set when and if needed, then sharpen.  Don't think it matters as far as what you ask about the "stone not grinding the entire width, one corner left untouched". Single tooth setting becomes time consuming, but can be extremely accurate if attention doesn't stray.  Checking and double checking is worth the trouble, especially at first, when you are getting the hang of it.  I thought the process was simple and easily accomplished until I checked some finished bands.  Easy to get out of tolerance when reversing the band, changing to other bands with differing wear, etc. 


The "corner left untouched" is that the tip away from the band body, the actual outside point of the tooth, one of THE most important parts of sharpening? Right?  That point is why the backside of the band grind is so important.  Reason why I 'set then sharpen' is to profile the tooth point to the horizontal and create a point line perpendicular to the band body.  'Sharpen then set' creates a (more square-less pointed) tip which, after the tooth is then set causes the very tip to be lower on the outside than the nearer to the body side, more of a chisel point than a knife point at the very tip.  If the band blade you are trying to resharpen has been ground then set, the back side of the tooth is possibly slightly higher on the band body side.  You don't say how far away the stone misses the backside nor how much of the width is not being ground, but either dimension is probably very, very small. Right?
 



Trust that whatever expenditures of funds and time will be rewarded with knowledge and future decisions enriched as a result. I agree with others here about the satisfaction of gaining a new skill and the convenience of sharpening your own blades. Even so, they still break, they seem to find just as much metal and rocks, and the care and love you have put into them makes the damage more heartbreaking than financial.  BG

Offline alan gage

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2019, 11:43:33 PM »
Wow, you got some valuable replies, Alan.


Yes, I certainly did. I've read through them all a couple times and, like you said, they'll make more sense and become more valuable after I've butted my head against the wall for a while.

These blades I've been sharpening are .045" and when new I had trouble with them breaking on my mill if pushed a little too far. My mill only has 16" wheels and thinking that was perhaps a little too small all the blades I've bought since have been .042" and so far none of them have broke. So I figured the .045" blades would be good for practice and might be less likely to be wavy in all the knotty spruce I'm cutting for siding.

Initially I grabbed 5 of these .045" blades to set and sharpen. I set them to .030" and they've been cutting very well. Virtually no waves in the spruce even when they start getting dull. But they haven't been lasting long before breaking. Only 3 of them lasted to the second sharpening and as of tonight there is only one left that hasn't broken and it's got deep gullet cracks.

After the last one broke I pulled out a brand new .042" and was anxious to see how it compared to the blades I've been sharpening. I'm happy to say that my sharpened blades cut better than the new one. Using the sound of the engine as my guide I might have been able to go a little faster with the new blade right out of the box but when I did I got waves on the first cut. To keep it cutting straight I had to back off the feed speed and as it dulled a little (probably cut 100bf with it) it was starting to wave even at slower feed speeds. I don't know if this is due to less set or the thinner blade. I guess I'll find out when I set and sharpen some of the .042" blades.

As for the grind not catching the full back of the tooth I called Timberking and the guy I talked to, who started there as a blade sharpener, said that very rarely could he ever get it to grind the entire profile in one pass. He said he did what I've been doing, which is to grind the front of the tooth and gullet in one pass and shift it over to catch the back of the tooth on the second pass. So far that seems to be working fine.

What thickness wheel are you using? A 1/4" wide wheel will help.


I checked and I do have a 1/4" wheel on it now.
do you have the cam thats for a 4 degree Kasco blade?


No, I don't believe Timberking offers different cams. So far, when comparing to a new blade, the profile doesn't really seem to be altered. None of the blades have been sharpened more than twice though.

Only reason I can see that you aren't getting the full tip sharpened after setting is you must be taking a very light grind indeed.


Maybe I should be grinding heavier. I might just be paranoid after hearing everyone warn about taking too heavy of a grind. I'm trying to keep the sound of the grind similar to what I've been hearing on the Timberking and Cooks instructional videos.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Alan
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Offline Ben Cut-wright

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2019, 11:52:51 AM »

Might be hard to get a fair comparison of band blades without more factors considered.  If you "had trouble with them breaking when new", previous to sharpening and no trauma, I would be suspicious of quality... or other than thickness.  "deep gullet cracks" are indicators of imminent breakage.  Have you used magnification to determine if your sharpening procedure is grinding away enough gullet.  If only measuring gullet depth after grinding there may be tiny cracks that will very quickly become a broken band.

Glad to hear your sharpening of the .045" blades cut better than the new .042".  Now to discover WHY the new bands don't cut as well or as fast but do not break. The new bands have introduced more questionable results than the single fact the original bands broke after such short life. They don't seem to be as sharp right out of the box. They cut waves unless you slow down.  They "dulled a little (probably cut 100bf with it)".  Set is different. Possibly a different brand, material, or tooth profile?  More to consider than simply the thickness of the band, perhaps. 

Does the instruction manual for your device include similar advice as you got from the "guy who started as a blade sharpener"?  Bear with me, please.  I can see room for error when shifting the grind point after a pass and not making a complete profile grind.  Because the stone is also a decided factor in these types of sharpeners, when you make an adjustment to the device, it is often necessary to also take the profile of the stone into account.  For example, if you grind the gullet deeper or shallower in a pass, the profile of the tip of the stone and/or the backside grinding portion of the stone must be addressed.  That stone shape has to be regularly monitored to insure consistent and accurate profile grinding. Attempting to move an adjustment and have the stone again precisely contact the band adds the possibility of error. 

Because the .045" bands are breaking with very little actual sawing time indicates that they are not suited for your application, more than thickness to account for with these.  If you can determine why they cut better than the new 0.42" and include whatever those features might be when you set and sharpen, you should expect some improvements.  Being able to set and sharpen enables you to economically experiment with variables otherwise set in stone if you were limited to only buying new. 

 

Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 11:12:29 PM »
Alan, I have no science to back this up so its just my opinion, but I think you are going to get more life out of the thinner blades with the 16 inch wheels that you are running. The thicker bands will tend to go through knots better, but are not going to last as long.  I have 26 inch wheels on my mill and get many sharpenings out of the thinner bands  (.42 and .45) usually, but I recently got some .50 from Cooks and they cut great, but I don't get as much life out of them either.  Since I work alone, I am going back to the thinner bands as I do have some idle time when the wheel is turning and not cutting.  That band is only going to go around so many times before a defect develops.  Even with the larger wheels, I have noticed the difference and with your smaller wheel, I believe it will be even more pronounced.  Just my take on things.  Banjo
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Offline alan gage

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2019, 11:47:10 PM »
I found the last 7 of the .045" bands tonight, set the teeth to .030" and sharpened them. Reground my wheel a little and while I can get a little farther up the back to the tooth I'm still about 1/4" short of reaching the tip. So I did what did on the other bands and shifted everything for the 2nd pass to hit the top of the back side of the tooth. Tonight I took a heavier grind and was able to sharpen the full width on the back side of the tooth nearly every time. I also took a little heavier grind in the gullet to try and remove any small stress cracks that I can.

I didn't have much time to saw and instead of using one of the newly sharpened blades I did a couple small logs with the .042" I started with last night. I sawed about 100bf of 1x material (in addition to around 100bf with it last night) and it's still sawing well and feels pretty sharp but it will wave if I push the speed high enough to hear the motor begin to bog slightly. I don't know if I should attribute that to the thinner blade or less set. I guess I'll find out when I change the set of some .042" blades.

One thing I did notice is that the new .042" blade is clearing sawdust much better than my sharpened .045" blades. I suppose for one the .045" blades with increased set are just plain making more sawdust. But does the increased set also make it harder for the blade to clear sawdust since there's more room for it to stay in the cut and avoid being pulled out?

I think I'll run these .045" blades until they get dull or break and then call them quits. As fast as they've been breaking I don't know that it will be worth it to try and get a 2nd sharpening from them.

I've got 3 dull blades I bought from Timberking (they weren't dull when I bought them) when I was buying parts to fix up the mill. I'll be interested to try sharpening them and see if the sharpener is able to follow that profile from tip to tip.

Alan
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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2019, 08:35:54 AM »
I was under the impression all you wanted to do was kiss the cutting edge of the tooth and clean the gullet. Why do you want to run all the way up the back side of the tooth? 

Your just removing extra material and shortening the life of the wheel.

Offline alan gage

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2019, 10:47:17 AM »
I was under the impression all you wanted to do was kiss the cutting edge of the tooth and clean the gullet. Why do you want to run all the way up the back side of the tooth?
Good question. I guess I don't know. I've heard some people say all you really need to do is sharpen the face of the blade and others say you should do both edges of the tooth. I guess now that I've got the sharpening equipment there's nothing stopping me from experimenting.

Alan
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Offline Ben Cut-wright

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2019, 11:07:37 AM »
I found the last 7 of the .045" bands tonight, set the teeth to .030" and sharpened them. Reground my wheel a little and while I can get a little farther up the back to the tooth I'm still about 1/4" short of reaching the tip. So I did what did on the other bands and shifted everything for the 2nd pass to hit the top of the back side of the tooth. Tonight I took a heavier grind and was able to sharpen the full width on the back side of the tooth nearly every time. I also took a little heavier grind in the gullet to try and remove any small stress cracks that I can.

I didn't have much time to saw and instead of using one of the newly sharpened blades I did a couple small logs with the .042" I started with last night. I sawed about 100bf of 1x material (in addition to around 100bf with it last night) and it's still sawing well and feels pretty sharp but it will wave if I push the speed high enough to hear the motor begin to bog slightly. I don't know if I should attribute that to the thinner blade or less set. I guess I'll find out when I change the set of some .042" blades.

One thing I did notice is that the new .042" blade is clearing sawdust much better than my sharpened .045" blades. I suppose for one the .045" blades with increased set are just plain making more sawdust. But does the increased set also make it harder for the blade to clear sawdust since there's more room for it to stay in the cut and avoid being pulled out?

I think I'll run these .045" blades until they get dull or break and then call them quits. As fast as they've been breaking I don't know that it will be worth it to try and get a 2nd sharpening from them.

I've got 3 dull blades I bought from Timberking (they weren't dull when I bought them) when I was buying parts to fix up the mill. I'll be interested to try sharpening them and see if the sharpener is able to follow that profile from tip to tip.

Alan
OK, sounds like you may have found a method of grinding the complete profile then,  without having to make arbitrary adjustments.


Don't think I read in your posts that this sharpener was/is -designed/set-up to grind the specific profile of your bands, the ones you have on hand now.  Could it be that multiple grindings or passes with the cam you have now will create a profile that can be ground without having to make adjustments? It is not unusual to have to make several passes to bring another profile, or a worn blade, into accord with cam and settings. 


If the "heavier grind in the gullet" helped solve the issue of (not grinding the back all the way to the tip), all you need to do to confirm procedure will be to measure the tooth height and gullet depth to insure they are within tolerance.  A very few thousandths in gullet depth is nearly equal across the profile of the area you say is not being ground.  These areas are on a similar plane in actuality, if not on the cam. You will never be able to modify a single cam to profile several different blade profiles. Good enough to make small concessions in non-critical areas and grind passes until the blade matches the profile of the machine.  IMO.


Always remember, dressing the stone will demand making an adjustment on the machine to compensate, unless you are attempting to correct two areas of the grind. Examples of this could fill a manual. Suffice to know it is a factor and employ the knowledge accordingly.


"Set and sawdust": OF course a wider cut will necessarily create more spoil/chips/dust.  There can be advantage in chip removal with a wider set in certain woods and speed of sawing. IN others it is a disadvantage.  Some species and some degree of fresh cut or drying can flip the advantages and disadvantages. You have the ability with your tools to find out what works best for your specific circumstance.  Start with published information and then tune from there.  Only stop experimenting when.....time does not allow it. Where on the tooth you push to set is also critical.  As much chip as possible should be in a stream easily seen and monitored exiting the cut. When this stream of chips becomes more a puff of dust, much will remain inside the log.  This can create heat on the band body and has the same result as less set.

There are different opinions on the need to grind the back of the tooth.  IMO this should be a settled issue.  Examine a tooth, without grinding the back of the tooth,  closely under magnification.  That examination should be enough to be convincing. Most agree that area must be properly ground if maximum performance is expected.

Offline alan gage

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2019, 12:18:50 PM »
Don't think I read in your posts that this sharpener was/is -designed/set-up to grind the specific profile of your bands, the ones you have on hand now.
 

Correct. The cam is not specific to my blade profile, which is why I'm curious to see what happens when I try to sharpen the timberking blades. Presumably they built their sharpener and cam to fit the profile of their blades.

As much chip as possible should be in a stream easily seen and monitored exiting the cut. When this stream of chips becomes more a puff of dust, much will remain inside the log. This can create heat on the band body and has the same result as less set.
 

With the .045" blades and .030" set there is both more dust exiting the dust chute and more remaining in the cut. It doesn't seem to be tightly packed and nothing seems to be getting hot.

I'm beginning to understand why the instructional manuals and videos don't have a rigid step by step set of instructions.

Alan
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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2019, 12:03:37 AM »
Since the profile of the grinding wheel is very important, and can be used to fine tune the cam contact on the sawblade, I used to take a band and adjust the cam as well as the profile to match.  There are a lot of contact adjustments that are solved by unique profiling of the cam and equally as many by uniquely profiling the grind rock.  Once I had a perfect combination of cam and rock profile to drag the entire band section, I would press a piece of thin metal into the grinding wheel and make a template, much like grinding a key.  Whenever I needed to match the profile, I would use the metal template as a grinding wheel dressing guide.

When I first started with the Cooks sharpener, it took weeks to get it right, including a call to Tim Cook, who helped with lots of fiddling and diddling.  Same with the setter.  I finally got to the point of perfect grinds for specific bands, and you will too.  However, there was still a lot of routine eyeballing and closely monitoring to keep up the accuracy.  

Of course, all these free style steps are not necessary with a CBN style sharpener.  



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Offline slider

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2019, 08:22:02 AM »
You may not want to do this but i took the side cover off my cooks sharpener so i can see the sparks coming off the rock . now i can see if the back side of the tooth is being ground properly.
If the sparks continue up the back of the rock it is shaped properly . If not i stop and dress the rock.
al glenn

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2019, 08:38:33 AM »
I am not sure who else makes a CBN style system BUT that is the best system i have seen to date and it is what I use. I have a 10° profiled wheel and a 7° "tickle wheel for the carbide turbos. That is all I need and when the last of my 10° blades are gone I am pretty sure my 10° wheel will be for sale.  
Let me know ,if you would,when your ready to sell that wheel! I regret not buying one when WM had them on sale. I hope to do as some have done and rig a chainsaw sharpener with a cbn wheel. I'm just a hobby sawyer so I can't justify $1000.00 for a sharpener. Making the accessories is a fun part of the hobby.
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Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Sharpener options for different bands?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2019, 09:30:45 PM »
 Once I had a perfect combination of cam and rock profile to drag the entire band section, I would press a piece of thin metal into the grinding wheel and make a template, much like grinding a key.  Whenever I needed to match the profile, I would use the metal template as a grinding wheel dressing guide.


@YellowHammer that is a great idea....thanks for sharing.  Banjo
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