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Author Topic: Another build thread... JoshNZ  (Read 12692 times)

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Offline JoshNZ

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Another build thread... JoshNZ
« on: August 04, 2019, 08:52:44 PM »
Well I decided I will start a build thread, more for my sake of asking questions etc than any body else's  :D. I'm Josh from New Zealand as name implies! Got no business building something like this, very little 'engineering experience' so. No laughing... I'm a chopper driver/fruit grower and between the two busy seasons right now so spending most days at it.

Basically I wanted a simple trailer unit with basic setup procedure, it'll get handed around friends (those I deem capable..) so length was compromised for ease of traveling. It all came together pretty quickly, first two days I had a rolling trailer.



 



 



 

A few weld photos for good measure. I don't own a mig and I wasn't going to tow the pedal around the floor with me, so stick it was.



 


 

Axle cut to length and stubs welded in. I fitted hubs on between tacks/welds and measured distance around rim to make sure of alignment.



 

Some of the steel I'm using is from dads shed, been sitting around for several decades so work slows down when I have to tidy it up. I cut a bit of old 1/2" unequal for the hitch and faced it on the mill. Will add a gusset later.



 

I took it for a quick drive and it behaves nicely. The wheels are off an old ute I'll have to find something smaller but it'll keep it manoeuvrable for now.



 

I got straight into the carriage. Milled and drilled slots for each wheel on the bases, then built each side, then tacked angle iron to the bed (one along a string line, the other at equal distance from it) and assembled sitting at head of trailer. I must say I had a prick of a time keeping the thing square, as there is no 'bottom beam' to fight the other welds with. Even with the bracing it would pull in tight once clamps were removed. I had several attempts at stretching it over sized a small amount and eventually got lucky when removing clamps where it was bang on.

I seem to spend half my time hoping my welds are good and half my time hoping they are crap when I have to cut them out...  :D



 


 


 

I hadn't decided how to mount the beam and I had a friend who owns a plasma cutting business twist my arm into taking four linear bearings off him + rails, he gave them to me cheap. Also meant anything on the carriage being out of square got solved at this point. I ended up only needing two, the things are solid as hell, even with one at each end I could lift the beam outside of the bearing at one end and the beam still went up level smooth as butter, so I get to return two of them. I decided with lead screws right behind the bearings the only problem they might have being racking, would be solved.



 


 


 


 

I realise the beam is a bit short or the overhang is at least. It's just what I had around. Hopefully it leaves enough room for a sliding tensioning sleeve later. Haven't quite sussed this out in my head yet so suggestions welcome.

In my infinite wisdom I decided to try turning the lead screws myself. 1700mm long shafts on a lathe with 800mm between centres... Needless to say, almost every hour I spent turning them was filled with regret for ever attempting it.



 


 

They leave a lot to be desired, some thread turns are a bit rough where chatter got away on me. But the nut I have turned is 40mm long though and at 3mm pitch, over 13 threads will always be engaged, so it's never going to fail.

I knocked the brass lugs out of my follow rest and machined slots and press fit shafts so the pins would take skateboard bearings (because that's what I had in my drawer). I feel like brass lugs themselves can induce chatter, possibly worse than with no rest sometimes. The bearings were definitely a magic bullet. This + a few tricks I learned with the first one made the second screw quite a bit easier. Less than half the time and to a better standard. These were turned out of rusty, bent, 35mm bar down to 25mm so it was not a good time, but I got there.



 



 



 


 

I didn't have big enough stock to turn the nuts with flanges so welded to a piece I cut from some box section. They turned out pretty good. There is no weight on the welds, just a small amount of torque, so they'll do.



 


 

Next was roughing out the holes for the screws in the beam and top of carriage. Forks sure beats a ladder!



 


 

I used 17mm bearings for the base with a shoulder turned down on the screw to take the weight on the bearing collar, and 20mm on top. Basically clamped the bearings in place top and bottom, and ran the beam up and down on a strop, tapping them until the screws stayed centre in the holes at each end. Then marked, drilled and tapped.

The flanges are held by 10mm bolts threaded in 3mm wall, I was surprised how much torque I could put on them. They're not holding weight, just lateral vibration maybe, so will see how they go I may have to drill out the backs and put nuts on the bolts. Also turned a 'safety collar' to prevent the nuts dropping off the screws if I ever went too low during maintenance or something.



 

I picked up a 10ft roll of 06B chain and a pair of sprockets for next to nothing in town, and just the morning I needed it I found a wrecked mobility scooter on facebook (algorithms must have known I was looking it was at the top of my news feed that morning!).
Bored the sprockets to the shaft size and drilled/tapped grub screws. I can't be bothered keying any of this stuff/don't have a broach, so I'll just divet the shafts and grub screw.



 

I'd hoped the wheelchair motor+gearbox would be a nice tidy unit I could bolt straight on but unfortunately it turned out to be a giant diff. I pulled the diff apart and decided the first reduction gear in it would get me about what I wanted, so am going with mounting that gear to the shaft and will built a bracket to mount the motor engaged with that gear.

The gear was harder than holy hell, sent a drill bit to its death trying to bore it out. The case hardening was deep as hell and even after cutting it off with carbide I still had a hard time boring it out. Decided there was no way I could drill and tap it so I turned a shrink-fit sleeve for it about .025mm over size. It spent the day in the freezer and later on when I was ready I put some propane on the gear and drove it in with a sledge hammer. It's def never going to move. Drilled and tapped the sleeve then fit to the shaft.



 

I had a third sprocket lying around which I cleaned the bore on, then turned a seperate stub with a thread to fasten to a slot on one end, and shaft with step and circlip groove the other. This made up the tensioner.

My idea was to plug the old grub screw threads and tap into one of them with a grease nipple. Prob the first stupid thing I have done for this build (to my knowledge =/). Small enough to be funny haha.
 it...



 

Nevermind, I welded the slot on with enough travel to tension what I had and the gear got turned upside-down, I hadn't diveted the screw sprockets yet so they got raised a bit.



 


 

And this is where I have finished up at the time of writing this. Will probably add a small gusset to the tensioner bar.


 

I was slacked off to find out I could barely move the chain once it was together! I found if I torque the lead screw nuts' bolts on the beam right up it binds. I think snugging the nuts right up to the RHS beam probably pulls them off axis slightly, so I'll either need to shim them, or I might turn some bolts with shoulders then oversize the holes in the nuts so they can float. They only need to be stopped from turning. Once backed off I could pull the chain with one hand smoothly.

I screwed the motor to a block of wood and clamped it with the pinion engaged, with a dodgy old motorbike battery it turns over nicely up and down, a bit of a hump with not dead true lead screws but appears it will work well. Will get building a bracket today.
I measured about 310RPM on the sprocket in a video, at 3mm pitch on the lead screw gives 930mm/min or 36"/min travel. Sound about right...?

I've got a bunch of questions banging around in my head I'll put in the next post!

Online Old Greenhorn

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2019, 09:10:58 PM »
Well, THAT went quick! ;D ;D
 Really, as a machinist for nearly 50 years, you've done some really nice work there! Holy cow, nice job on the lead screws and nuts. Squareness can be real touchy on those. Keep it coming, this in fun to watch.
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) I mill for fun and my mental health. NYLT Certified.

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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2019, 10:42:40 PM »
Thanks Greenhorn! But I haven't shown the worst areas of the thread =/. I've wanted a tail vice for my wood bench for a long time, half way through the first screw I seriously considered ending it there and calling it a tail vice, and never telling anyone I attempted a lead screw.. :D But never mind... They'll work!

I guess my first question is engine size... I only have a few options here, if I get lucky I'll find one used before I need it but otherwise I'm buying new. There is nothing really between 10, 13, 15hp single banger at ~$500NZ. ($1NZ = $.65US today). So I was set on 15hp for a while but now am leaning towards a V twin electric start, since I now have electronics, and if the stator wasn't up to it I could pull an alternator too.
18-22hp V twin is a big price jump starting at $1300NZ, all the way to $3k+.

For those that can be bothered looking... Any of these stand out as recognisable reasonable clones or whatever. I doubt there's much in the 18-22hp as they're all ~680cc displacement.

Considering this is a hobby mill, not production... It might see a few logs a year, might it be better to stay down at 15hp and either charge batteries manually or pull an alternator..? The capacity will end up being somewhere around 915mm/36".

I haven't quite nutted out how I will track the blade, I figured I would run the shafts through pillow blocks fastened with bolts sliding in slots, and guide the blocks with lateral bolts, is this the easiest way to do it?

And for tensioning, a sleeve fitted over the beam tensioned by a bottle jack, is the idea I had... That sound doable? Is it easy enough to tap a bottle jack with a pressure gauge?

I had these pulleys show up last week, thanks to Rayar for putting me onto the fact that you guys actually use pulleys... That had me stumped for a long time. Even once I found these, no-one in NZ seemed to have them in stock but an engineering company brought some in from Australia for a really good price. Apparently known as bilocs or milocs, with a taper bush and clamping retainer. I got 38mm bushes (1.5"). He assured me they'll take all the torque I can throw at them without needing a key.
I took one down to the auto shop and the B section belts sit about .7mm or 1/32" above the pulley rim, is this enough? No luck finding the right size I'll have to order.



 

I think I'll have to turn the shafts out of 4140 as they'll hang quite far out from the bearings in order to clear the toes of the carriage, I'll wait around a little longer to see if some offcuts come up otherwise I will go and see a friend.

Thanks in advance of course!

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2019, 11:17:37 PM »
Your engine size will also depend on the band you are pulling.  Will it be 1" or 1"?  The bigger, the more tension and the more HP you will need.  I'm pulling a 1" and "upgraded" to a twin 18hp.  I'd like 20 or 22 hp after using it a couple years now cutting up to 28".

Tracking like that should work.  You WILL need tracking adjustments on both the powered and the idle wheels.

Using a bottle jack would work great, IF it will work in that position.  Might not.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2019, 11:32:49 PM »
OHHHHH, I WISH I HAD A MILL AND A LATHE. I THINK MY BUILD WOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE. 

EXTREMELY NICE BUILD SIR. YOU HAVE HELPED MAKE MY MIND UP ON USING ACME ROD FOR MY LIFTING UNIT. THE DANG ROLLER CHAIN TIED OFF HERE AND THERE AND OTHER WHATNOTS HAS GOT MY HAIR THINNED OUT.

YOU A CATTLE RUSTLING MEAT SERVO OR CROP DUSTER?

I ACCIDENTALLY BOUGHT THE SAME TYPE LINEAR BEARING, THEN REALIZED, I COULD USE THEM, BUT WOULD HAVE TO DO SOME SERIOUS COUNTER SINKING, PLUS I NEEDED ANOTHER THK 45 RAIL, SO BOUGHT A LONGER RAIL AND THE LM FLANGE STYLE BEARINGS, JUST TO FIND OUT THE DANG THINGS DIDNT HAVE GREASE ZERKS. GOTTA DO SOME BRAZING ON A GREASE GUN TUBE AND PIPE FITTING JUST TO LUBE THEM. 

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 06:27:32 AM »
Engine size? Mine came with a 20hp Honda. Never slowed that thing down yet. But have never sawed a good size hardwood on it either. There are some that are sawing with less hp than me.
Looking good there you are,you are. ;D
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Offline Dana Stanley

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2019, 07:32:56 AM »
Around here you can get used ride-on mowers  with 20 hp plus for under 500.00  any day of the week. If a feller were real good at machining he could set up a shaft and gears to convert it to horizontal drive. Then you would have the power and electric you want at a cheap price.
One thing I would do is to use a seperate drive pulley, and not the band pulley as a drive pulley. Then you can allow for a much deeper cut if you set it up right.
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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2019, 08:29:15 AM »
I hadn't given much thought to blade size I assumed 1-1/4" was my only option. I will lean towards the 20+hp engines then. Vertical shaft engines are a whole lot cheaper here too but I don't think I want to bother with a right angle gearbox. More noise, and another thing to break - especially if I machine it haha. Are there many mills around running verticals? I had planned on running a seperate pulley on the driving wheels' shaft.
That was my other question I forgot to ask, if I do go 20+hp, is centrifugal clutch or a belt tensioning lever a better idea?

The motor had a bunch of crap in the back of it, brake and Hall effect sensor I guess which I got rid of. I considered turning the case down but don't think I'll bother.

I turned a recess into a plate to fit the motor, drilled and tapped mounting holes, then milled slots. Also drilled a second plate which I welded to a bit of box which was the right height.



 

Tacked it in place and then blasted it to the frame, and mounted motor with pinion engaged and a slight bit of backlash. It didn't seem to make a difference to noise, don't think it's coming from the gears.



 


 


 

Ended up with a booboo on one of the slots as the work piece came loose. It didn't fit in my vice so I had it clamped to the top of it oddly...



 

This is the crap I'm making this stuff out of, and what makes it so slow. The right bit of clean steel would be a luxury for me!!



 

Here's a quick vid of it lifting, not sure how it's supposed to sound. I'm thinking I'll put rubber shims between the nuts and beam to help with that chattery sound. It labours a bit with me on the beam and I'm only 70kg/150lb. I guess an engine+saw gear won't go too far over that.
lift - YouTube

I was pretty lucky my friend had the linear blocks Charles, and he buys kilometres of rail. Blocks were cheap and my rails were free offcuts. They hide hex cap bolt heads inside them and the blocks just have threads. easy as! Just tourists at the moment actually! Not ideal but it's close to home which is where I want to stay for the moment, I've got a few things on.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2019, 08:50:17 AM »
I have a centrifugal clutch on mine. That was a big and I do mean big plus on why I bought it.Well that was the reason I bought it. I have a bum shoulder. No way could I reach up and engage and unegage that lever all day. Not that I saw all day,but 10-12 times would start to bother me. I know why some mills use the lever,cheaper,but still don't see why they do it that way. ;D 
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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2019, 09:23:07 AM »
That was my other question I forgot to ask, if I do go 20+hp, is centrifugal clutch or a belt tensioning lever a better idea?
 
My 18hp twin horizontal came with a fixed pulley on the back (not used) and an electric clutch on the front.  Way cool!
John Sawicky

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SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2019, 12:29:56 PM »
With how tight you said everything is do you rally need 2 screws? I toyed with the idea of doing the same thing with the linear bearings but hoping I could get away with 1 screw.

You build is looking great. Keep it up.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2019, 04:35:14 PM »
My build will have a box to slide around my sawbeam too. I know it worked for another person that built his mill. He used a port-a-power pump and ram to tension with. On another mill build thread, someone mentioned using the bottle out of a floor jack, since it was designed to work in the horizontal position. 
From the looks of you beam, you dont have much out past your linear bearings, so you might have to think of something else, like hinging the idle wheel and pushing against the idle shaft bracket, or build a box thatll slide inside the beam and either push the box with hyd. or using a screw method and pushing off a plate placed inside the beam. Im kinda brain storming myself, trying figure a tensioning method, and i think im gonna use acme rod to push against a plate inside my beam and find a way to grab hold of my idle box. 
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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2019, 07:03:08 PM »
You could definitely get away with one screw but you'd want 4 bearing blocks rather than 2, they'd have to take care of racking all on their own. If you spaced them far enough apart vertically then they'd be fine I'm sure - would also mean you'd loose some travel to the spacing of them. I'd run your screw as far inboard as you could, i.e. on the inboard rim of that sides wheel or whatever is closer that would otherwise interfere with a log. With 2 bearings, no. It's tight now but they're brand new and although it stays level you can tell it stresses them, wouldn't be tight for long I think the balls would be crying.

I thought if I really needed it I could always have a bolt together box, with a cutout for the bearing. But may hinge yet or may go inside the beam like you say. May weld a sleeve inside the beam, then go outside that sleeve. Cross that bridge later I'll see what steel I can find.

You guys have me thinking now... What would it take to run a vertical V twin on its side... Probably just a new carb mount and repositioning the dip stick. Are they usually splash lubed or pumped? I imagine a pump could be repositioned maybe, or something could be added to the crank to flick oil in the right direction. Or the level could be changed so the crank dips... 🤔

For the price they're going around here it'd be safe enough to buy one just to experiment - I'd eventually come into one for free I think.

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2019, 09:11:33 PM »
I guess it can be done! Electric oil pump is what this guy used.https://youtu.be/NFp8WUQle88
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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2019, 09:34:52 PM »
G'day 

Josh your of to a flying start looking great mate 

Regards Chris 
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Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2019, 12:23:24 AM »
You could definitely get away with one screw but you'd want 4 bearing blocks rather than 2, they'd have to take care of racking all on their own. If you spaced them far enough apart vertically then they'd be fine I'm sure - would also mean you'd loose some travel to the spacing of them.
well, after trying to locate 78" acme rod, only place i could find wanted $25/6" of rod. that was a lil over $1000 per rod. idk if the rod being made out of 4140 is the reason for the high price, but it aint worth that to me. there are other places that sell 1.5"-4 rod, but its either 6' or 12', and i don't want to waste 5' of rod per side, well, 4' on 1 side, bc i could use a foot for my tensioning mechanism. so i think I'm gonna go back to the chain and sprocket method. 
i do hope my thk45 bearing hold up. if my math is correct, each bearing is rated for around 2.2 kN meter, which equaled around like 1600 lbs of force, and my sawhead should weigh around 1200-1300 lbs, maybe 1400 lbs. and my power plant will be counter levering the head to the rear (putting a LOT of force on the top/bottom (lateral stress) sections of the bearings), with minimal side (radial load). if it seems to start binding, ill put the other 4 bearings on, which are the same mounting style as your bearings. iv got plenty of space (14-15") at the bottom to mount 2 more bearings, so it shouldn't be an issue. i don't want to run out of vertical limits. 
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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2019, 01:14:59 AM »
I would call it wishful thinking that you are going to need a full 78" of thread! ;)  You're planning on milling logs that are over 6' in diameter!

So, buy two 6' sticks and tack on a piece of regular rod if you need the length to reach the support bearings.  I would plan on a total head movement of 4', being conservative, 5' would be super conservative (or super-wishful)!

If the head is that heavy, I would seriously look into a counter balance to offset some of that weight.  Could even use garage door springs (straight or the torsion type) and pulleys that would serve the lower level area where you will spend a bit of your time.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2019, 01:18:06 AM »
You guys have me thinking now... What would it take to run a vertical V twin on its side... Probably just a new carb mount and repositioning the dip stick. Are they usually splash lubed or pumped? I imagine a pump could be repositioned maybe, or something could be added to the crank to flick oil in the right direction. Or the level could be changed so the crank dips... 🤔

For the price they're going around here it'd be safe enough to buy one just to experiment - I'd eventually come into one for free I think.
Keep the engine vertical, like it's meant to be. You run your belt to a jack shaft, both pulleys fairly equal in size, engine horizontal pulley to jack shaft vertical pulley with enough space for a 90 degree twist with the belt. Add a second pulley on the jack shaft to the band wheel pulley. Engine pulley needs to be lined up with the jack shaft and jack shaft pulley needs to be lined up with the crank shaft. Depending on which way you twist the belt determines which way the jack shaft turns.
Ray
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Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2019, 01:50:17 AM »
I would call it wishful thinking that you are going to need a full 78" of thread! ;)  You're planning on milling logs that are over 6' in diameter!

So, buy two 6' sticks and tack on a piece of regular rod if you need the length to reach the support bearings.  I would plan on a total head movement of 4', being conservative, 5' would be super conservative (or super-wishful)!

If the head is that heavy, I would seriously look into a counter balance to offset some of that weight.  Could even use garage door springs (straight or the torsion type) and pulleys that would serve the lower level area where you will spend a bit of your time.
edited: "the 78" is to allow for around 3" on the bottom for coupling, 3", maybe a bit more for bearing and enough shaft at the top for a sprocket. so i reality i may only end up with a 70" height on the head. i guess those extra 3 or so inched up top could be welded and take up the but of rod going through the bearing and for sprocket attachment points. 

ill give a lot more thought, especially when i get hm, and hopefully the machine work if finished and i can saw head after it being at the machine shop for 5 months. he literally took "no rush" seriously"
 
i have a pecan that a lil under 6' on the log and a tad over 6' in the branch section. that limb that needs to come off isn't a big deal, i could lop it off with a chainsaw, but i want the cuts as flat as possible, so i can roll it 180, cut a flat section on the bottom, the roll it 90 and slice off the section for a bench, then slab out the rest. i also have another pecan that is a mangled mess, but its just under 6'. i guess i could measure down to my tallest cut, slab off the top, set it off to the side roll the log, and slab out the rest, then put the first cut back on and slab it.
i had thought of welding, but wasn't sure if it would hold up to the tq being applied. not saying i can't get penetration, but i have no way to, i guess call it, accurately re-thread the areas that have weld in the threading. plus lining them up perfectly, and keep them perfect during the welding.
ya'll keep saying garage door springs, but i can't for like of me figure out how to make that work. iv never really seen garage door springs, mostly bc iv never had a garage with a door, other than a sliding door that weighed about 40 lbs and was easy to lift and fling up the tracks.  
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Offline charles mann

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Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2019, 01:59:53 AM »
You guys have me thinking now... What would it take to run a vertical V twin on its side... Probably just a new carb mount and repositioning the dip stick. Are they usually splash lubed or pumped? I imagine a pump could be repositioned maybe, or something could be added to the crank to flick oil in the right direction. Or the level could be changed so the crank dips... 🤔

For the price they're going around here it'd be safe enough to buy one just to experiment - I'd eventually come into one for free I think.
what about 1:1 90 gearbox? 
1:1 32 HP Right Angle Gearbox | Gearboxes | Gear Reducers & Gearboxes | Power Transmission | www.surpluscenter.com
would have to find 1 for the hp, but the rpm could be slowed with a couple pulleys.
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot


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