The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems






Author Topic: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder  (Read 2015 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« on: October 07, 2019, 09:32:29 PM »
I'm in the stage of planning my firewood processor build.  I am wondering on people's thoughts of a 4" vs 4.5" splitting ram through 4 and 6-way wedges?  With the 4" I can get the cycle time down a bit running a 30gpm hyd pump but I sacrifice power.  I NEVER split crotch wood... almost always relatively straight grained birch, fir, larch, pine and cedar that arrives by the truck load. 

For comparison, my only experience is with my 3.5" 12-ton 2-way splitter I currently use.  It does well up past 20" rounds of fir... but I somehow feel it wouldn't handle a 6-way wedge at all.

Thanks!
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline sawguy21

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10431
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Enderby B.C. Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2019, 01:34:56 AM »
You are correct about  the smaller ram having more speed but less power but I'm thinking you will want more than 4.5" with a six way. They need a lot of power which may bend the shaft. I modified a 30 ton portable splitter, cranked up the pressure relief valve and that was the result. The head which my boss fabbed was a work of art though. :D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Al_Smith

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10307
  • Location: Northwestern Ohio in the center of a giant corn field
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2019, 04:46:33 AM »
Much ado about cycle time on home builts .I've got a home built with a 5" cylinder that will obviously split anything and it's fast enough I don't run the engine at full throttle,don't need to .
Now were it two strapping 20 year olds feeding it cycle time might be a big deal but an old  70 plus year old it just wears you out to try and keep up with the machine .That said were it myself I'd opt for the 4.5" . 

Offline Al_Smith

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10307
  • Location: Northwestern Ohio in the center of a giant corn field
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2019, 05:00:54 AM »
Now another thing about bending cylinder rods .Some designs they just anchored the cylinder on the back side which is more prone to bend the rod than anchoring the front and back and having the slide built as such it won't  rise up or allow side movement .Mine BTW is anchored with four  1" grade 8 bolts and a stop block .So what I'm saying is it's all in the design IMO .Build it battle ship strong it will last forever .

Offline Hilltop366

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2019, 09:19:23 AM »
Lots of on-line calculators available, by using a couple of these https://www.baumhydraulics.com/Home/Page/speccalculators you can get a idea of the differences between the two sizes.

If I did it right and used 2500 psi for pump pressure you would be looking at around 8000 lbs more pressure with the 4.5" and 1.5 more seconds in cycle time (extend and retract) not counting time spent at the high pressure/low speed stage of the pump. 

That is assuming you are using a two stage pump.

Offline Hilltop366

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post

Offline GAB

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1550
  • Location: Charlotte, VT
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2019, 09:28:54 AM »
On the return cycle you are not trying to do any hard work.  So if you could find a say 5" cylinder with a 4" rod you would pump a lot less oil for retraction of the piston and it would be less apt to bend. i.e. the best of both worlds.
GAB
W-M LT40HDD34 w/6' ext & SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2019, 10:15:49 AM »
Speed is an issue in this case as the splitter has to cycle at a speed suited to the cutoff saw.  I think I'll grab the 4.5" for now and build the splitter's push block "battleship strong" haha.

I will be using a 30gpm single stage pump to run the splitter and hydraulic saw.

Thanks for the input
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2019, 10:21:42 AM »
I have a 5 inch cylinder, with a 2 inch rod.  32 inch long cylinder.  a 18 hp motor with  a 28 gpm pump 2 stage.  I would want the most power if you are going to do a multi splitting wedge.  no fun spending time getting a 6 way unclogged. sounds like mostly soft woods.  the retraction time is not bad with a detent valve.  if you are using this as a business, I would tend to overbuild, especially if your customers and family depend on it.  If you are using a power beyond plug, it is my understanding that both operations will not be happening at the same time.  so the saw would occur and then the splitting.  At 30 gpm, cycle time should be ok.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2019, 10:30:22 AM »
When designing to split 20" rounds, how close to the center of that (10") is a good place to have the splitting ram push?  Or in other words: how high off the I-beam is the cylinder's centerline?

My income won't depend on this processor, but I do plan of commercially processing as a side gig (one of many haha).
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6837
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2019, 11:57:47 AM »
A 4.5" cylinder should have a pretty fast cycle time with a 30gpm single stage, and a lot of power! 
Too many irons in the fire

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2019, 12:53:59 PM »
so my 5 inch cylinder centers are 5 inches up off the H beam slide surface.  it leaves 2 inches under the external cylinder.  I used to have a 10 inch tall pusher and this pushed on the center of this.  my splitting wedge is 18 inches tall and my BIL was splitting a gnarly 30 inch log and it pitched back over the pusher and bent the top slightly.  all my pusher parts are 3/4 inch plate.  I straitened this and added more plate to the pusher with reinforcement, making it 16 inches tall.  I have had no issues having the rod attach  at 5 inches, and pushing up to 32 inch logs.  with a 16 inch pusher and an 18 inch wedge.



 



 


 


 


 

I used a 32 inch long cylinder, and use stops to make it a shorter cycle time for my goal of 16 inch firewood.  the 10 inches of stops makes it a 22 inch opening for odds and ends, shooting for my target length.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2019, 01:00:07 PM »
I made an 8 way wedge that fits in front of my 18 inch single wedge, but do not use it often as I am splitting hardwood such as mulberry, elm, oak.  any branch points ect. can really jam it up.  As you prob. know, each component will have to tolerate the pressure and force generated by your machine, and the occasional whoops when a split pushes the whole thing sideways.  I like the 2 stage pump as it is slower at the highest pressure, giving you a chance to "Abort" if needed.  In a huge log, I will back up some part way into the split to let the log center itself, so I do not torque anything.  in case the split does not line up with the rod and pusher exactly.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2019, 01:24:29 PM »
my pump/valve is set to bypass at 3k psi x 2.5 x 2.5 x 3.14 = 58,875 pounds of splitting force.  if I did the math correct, and if not I am sure someone will chime in!!! :D :D :D.  your flow is 30 gpm, do you know your psi?  how are you running the saw and the pusher?  off the same pump with power beyond?  Ts? separate pumps?
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline moodnacreek

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Location: Orange County NY
  • Gender: Male
  • Sawin by the notches
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2019, 07:02:59 PM »
Go for a 4 1/2" with 3" rod. It will be worth the cost of having one made if that's what it takes. We have been running one for years with just over 25gpm. 30 will be better than ours and will have a nice return.

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2019, 10:55:33 PM »
Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Really helps solidify my plans.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline blackfoot griz

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 560
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Whitefish, MT
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2019, 09:13:10 AM »
One other consideration would be the ports on the cylinder. The ports need to be big enough to handle the flow. Restriction= heat build up.

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2019, 10:29:49 AM »
Most everything I see off the shelf runs SAE8 ports... so probably on the small side of passing 30gpm.  I could upsize them... just haven't welded on hyd cylinders in my life before.  I'm a good welder, just have to figure out the process for cutting out the old ports and welding in the new ports in such a fashion to NOT destroy hyd seals.  I'm open to suggestions as it seems few people take the time to enlarge ports on shop-built splitters.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline Nathan4104

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Location: Northern Ontario
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2019, 10:45:14 AM »
I have a 3.5 cylinder on my processor, but I had the rod changed out to a 3 I believe.  (16 or 20gpm pump I believe) It was as big as the machine shop could put in. They also opened up the ports. It made the return about a second faster, which does not sound like much till you realize you wait 6 seconds per log to make the next cut, and how many logs per cord.... makes minutes! And is just satisfying to see it retract a bit faster! 
I split mostly softwood and birch through a 4 way wedge no issues.  
Good luck on your build! 

Offline Al_Smith

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10307
  • Location: Northwestern Ohio in the center of a giant corn field
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2019, 12:40:07 PM »
IMO it would be very difficult to bend a 2" rod even on a 5" cylinder if the anchor points and the slide are solid and true to the point of thrust .It's all just the laws of physics .
Then comes the tonnage rating .A 5" at 3000 PSI is just short of 30 tons,a 4"  just short of 20 which gives rise is to how pray tell how can  a 4" be rated at 27 tons ?They lie ,simple as that .
Then comes what do you want to do with it ,run it wide open all out or make it last .Directly from a Parker -Hannifin design book it shows the increased longevity from just a pressure drop of 500 PSI .

Offline jmur1

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Wood is King
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2019, 12:40:29 PM »
Fully agree with the rod size increase.  This does make a difference in the cycle time and the rod bending resistance.  Also a big supporter of the piloted dump valve.  I have two running on mine for both the split cycle and the return.  Both cycles run all your oil back through the control valve which is not necessary.  If you dump a percentage of it back to tank it will noticeably improve the cycle time. 

I was running a 5 inch cylinder through a 6 way head and had more force than I needed - (often resulting in damage).  I convert to a 4 and found it to be nearly perfect for the hardest wood I am doing.   Knotty cherry, and beech.  (Also running lots of ash that it flies through)  

Either way  - If you can figure out how to run a multi wedge without needing a sledge hammer, Ill cheers that!

jmur1  
Easy does it

Offline hedgerow

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2019, 01:39:20 PM »
Rougespear
Don't cheap out on the hyd cylinder it's the heart of a processor and will get cycled a lot. I would go with a five inch with a 3.5 or a four inch rod. Get it made with 3/4 or 1 inch ports and use a pilot dump valve that bigger rod size really speeds up the cycle time. Check places like Surplus Center in Lincoln Ne or get a machine shop hyd shop to build one. If you have enough horse power you can ran a single stage 30 GPM pump you get the right cylinder that processor will be fast. 

Offline sawguy21

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10431
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Enderby B.C. Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2019, 01:51:47 PM »
I am not far from him, he has a top notch local machine shop. Princess Auto in Kamloops or Kelowna is a one stop shop for things hydraulic.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Hilltop366

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2019, 06:09:50 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.

Offline hedgerow

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2019, 08:21:12 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.
If you could post that link I would like to see that processor. Sounds like a neat way to do it.  Thanks 

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2019, 09:03:27 PM »
Sawguy: I never noticed you were so close!  I haven't spoken with Reliable Rebuilders yet regarding getting a cylinder made up.  Or were you referring to another "good hyd/machine shop"?

I was thinking of trying a standard 4.5" x 24" cylinder with a 1.75" rod and go from there.  The cylinder is easy enough to change out should I not like the performance.

jmur1: could you elaborate a bit on your dump valves?  I have the basic idea, but not solid in my mind.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline Hilltop366

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2019, 09:28:25 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.
If you could post that link I would like to see that processor. Sounds like a neat way to do it.  Thanks
I looked for the video when I posted but did not find it, I will look some more.

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2019, 09:56:21 PM »
                                             
found on splitez web site.  on the phone sounds like they know a thing or two.


  Dump Valve

 

  • Less heat.

  • Less wear on main valve.

  • Less restriction.
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
  5 " Bore cylinder with a 2.5" shaft on return stroke a 28 GPM pump will push more than 28 GPM of fluid out the return port of cylinder. A 30 GPM dump valve will take  up to 30 GPM away from Hydraulic control valve less load on main valve.
 
How to plum a hydraulic dump valve.
 
    Dump valve number  1-2-3 on block.
 
Port 3  Hydraulic hose shaft end of cylinder.
Port 2  Hydraulic hose back to hydraulic tank.
Port 1  Hydraulic hose to pressure end of hydraulic cylinder.
 
 

 Horizontal Log Splitter with Dump Valve    
[/font][/size]


[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
 
 
 

 
Shown with all the options hose & fittings and LS 3000 2 Mounter on Vertical Log Splitter
 
Price each  30 GPM   $ 135.95
Price each  65 GPM   $ 226.95
 [/font][/size]

timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline sawguy21

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10431
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Enderby B.C. Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2019, 12:22:05 AM »
Sawguy: I never noticed you were so close!  I haven't spoken with Reliable Rebuilders yet regarding getting a cylinder made up.  Or were you referring to another "good hyd/machine shop"?

I was thinking of trying a standard 4.5" x 24" cylinder with a 1.75" rod and go from there.  The cylinder is easy enough to change out should I not like the performance.

jmur1: could you elaborate a bit on your dump valves?  I have the basic idea, but not solid in my mind.
Is Newnes  Machine still around?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2019, 12:34:00 AM »
I think around in a sense... but definitely long gone as Newns.  Went to school with a couple of those boys back in the day.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline hedgerow

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2019, 09:54:43 AM »
I have gotten a few dump valves from Splitez they were good people to work with. I think you may be able to get a oversize rod cylinder from them also. There web site is a good one. 

Offline jmur1

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Wood is King
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2019, 01:33:20 PM »
I got my dump valves at a small hydraulic shop in Guelph (Industrial Hydraulics).  I plumbed them right on the cylinder lines.



 



 

I will pull the details on the valves for you.
Easy does it

Offline jmur1

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Wood is King
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2019, 06:16:08 PM »
The Valve numbers are VBPS02S (looks like an Italian supplier see attached spec) I paid $98 Canadian in 2015
3/8" line fittings and around 48 GPM per the spec.

Fairly simple to add in.  Need two "T" connectors and additional line/fittings back to tank.
The "pilot" connection on this one is 1/4" NPT and the "Flow" connection is 3/8 NPT.

1. "T" into the high pressure side of the cylinder with the 1/4" pilot line back to the dump valve.    This line tells the dump valve when to open.
2. "T" into the return side of the cylinder with the 3/8" line and connect the "flow" line on one side of the valve to this "T" and the other side to tank.  I'm sure there was an arrow on it so make sure that is correct.  Thats it.  I have been using this setup for several years now and so far so good.  I have had some curious hesitation on occasion but nothing that resulted in action yet.  Definitely necessary to have a good hydraulic filter on your system and change it as required.
It paid for itself in the first year - you will notice the speed difference. 

jmur1



 

  
Easy does it

Offline jmur1

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Wood is King
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2019, 06:54:46 PM »
I would also like to mention a comment about the larger rod size.  While it is true that a properly braced cylinder will typically see lower levels of bending in the rod, there are some cases where this will still fail.
For my processor you may run any where from 6" to 20" diameter logs.  
Properly locating the center of the cylinder on a push plate to avoid the bending on the push plate is tricky when you have to consider a line center of action from 3" to 10" vertical.  
Wear makes things loose and small angles grow over time.
I bent my 2" rod (on my 5" cylinder) in a nice "U"one day - and I am the wise careful owner!   Many logs over time put a small angle on the plate and when you are pushing 60 large tonnage that can very quickly bend the rod.
PS some cuts are better left off to the side for the hand splitter!
jmur1  
Easy does it

Offline moodnacreek

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Location: Orange County NY
  • Gender: Male
  • Sawin by the notches
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2019, 07:32:22 PM »
Oversize rods are more for speed than strength. 3/4" hose should be plenty and I think it must be 6 wire. To go to 1" hose sounds like a problem and should not be necessary.

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2019, 08:47:11 PM »
i would start with something affordable.  bigger ports may help with huge flow but if it is a short length, not much effect.  i mounted my valve (turned upside down) direct on the cylinder.  the rest of the hose is 3/4 inch or sae number 12 fittings.  the dump valve is for the large volume of oil being pushed out, to return to the reservoir via the control valve.  it bypasses and reduces the heat and restriction relative to that volume.  splitez also sells a double stick double detent valve that will speed things up.  not for kids or gnarly wood that might break something.
i got my cylinder cause it was a odd size special ordered and not picked up.  i think they had four of them and i paid 150$ for a 5 inch x 32 inch with 2 inch rod.  new in the box.  if you find a good deal on a 4 inch and can get two you could stack them and double the power (force), divide the flow and reduce friction/heat that way.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Gearbox

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Age: 74
  • Location: North MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2019, 09:50:15 PM »
Are you going to run a circle saw or a hydraulic chainsaw . You are looking for speed in the splitter . If your running a circle saw you need a very fast cycle time . A chainsaw not so much . Ask guys with large hydraulic chainsaw for there saw cycle time on 20 inch wood and build from there . My processer has a 8 to 10 second cycle time and run a bush cord an hour one 74 year old man loading with a bobcat and running the machine .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2019, 01:08:09 AM »
Will be a hyd saw... circle saws are too big for my liking.

Thanks jmur1 for the details - very much appreciated.

I priced out a custom cylinder at the local hyd shop today: $1k CDN for a 4.5" bore, 3" rod and 24" stroke.  So I grabbed a regular 4.5" cylinder from the local "big distributor" instead.  I will upsize the ports if I am dissatisfied/have a problem with hydraulic system heat.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline wiam

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1022
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Barnet, VT
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2019, 05:59:55 AM »
Jmur1, are you running dump oil through return filter?

Offline jmur1

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Wood is King
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2019, 09:24:26 AM »
Hi wiam
I am not running the dump oil through the filter.  It goes straight to tank.  I figured out of the other 5 valve channels that run on a consistent basis, there was enough filtering of the oil already.  I run the control valve return line directly through the filter.
jmur1
Easy does it

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2019, 11:00:18 AM »
Hi all, I am wondering on opinions of the thickness of the splitter backstop with a 24 ton system?  I have the splitter assembly drawn with a 3/4" splitting wedge backed up by a piece of 3/4" x 8" bar.  Does that backup need to be upsized to 1" plate?



Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline Al_Smith

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10307
  • Location: Northwestern Ohio in the center of a giant corn field
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2019, 12:29:35 PM »
It's unlikely you could bend a 3/4" upright plate with a knife edge spliter.

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2019, 12:22:06 AM »
mine is cold rolled steel 3/4 ".  I bent it a little with a gnarly 32 inch round years back that tried to flip back over it.  the cut was not perpendicular and lots of knots.  I added the top extension.  now recently I was splitting a very dry mulberry log that had several branch points and too big for the splitter, and torqued the pusher a bit, maybe a mm or 2.  not the face, but the plate sliding on the H beam.  so fine 99% of the time, and keep an eye on teenage boys that would prefer if the whole thing did not work anyway.  I tend to be careful since I will have to fix it if I break it.

the design in the pic would really support the face of the pusher.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Al_Smith

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10307
  • Location: Northwestern Ohio in the center of a giant corn field
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2019, 07:09:33 AM »
All this talk of heavy duty bullet proof spliters reminds me of a little light duty deal that was given to me .4" beam,1/4" knife edge cutter with a 2.5" cylinder .I replaced the 5 HP Briggs with a 240 volt electric motor that had an amp draw that equated to around 2.7 HP and used a 250 foot roll of 12-2 romex for the power .Laid on the ground with go-kart tires on the back .Pulled it around on the back of a riding lawn mower .
You would not believe what that tiny little thing would split .Sure you could out produce it with an axe for maybe 15 minute but it didn't need a break.just kept keeping on . I gave it to my wifes cousin who still uses it .I had split some 30" oak rounds with it .
Every so often it would stick on a knotty piece .Just noodle it with a chainsaw and break out the steel wedges and 8 pound sledge hammer.Simple as that . 

Offline hedgerow

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2019, 08:48:25 AM »
Rougespear   
I don't think you will have a problem with the 3/4 inch back stop. The part you want to watch is the size of the beam. Those knotty pieces always like to torque the beam right ahead of were the wedge is attached. I would make that slide as long as you can  to cut down on the movement of the slide as things get worn. One of the best slides I have seen was on a old Uhaul rent splitter with a four inch cylinder that had a two foot slide on it. Splitter had been a rent unit for years and was forty years old and the slide was still tight. A lot of movement on the slide is hard on cylinder's. 

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2019, 10:01:38 AM »
my pusher bottom has a plate, then a spacer the thickness of the h beam web, then washers to shim a bit more.  then a bottom piece to hold it onto the H beam top.  i can replace the bottoms or turn them over when worn, and or thin the washers down after wear to tighten things up.  see prev. pics.  I like the reinforcement in the pic, that covers the cylinder, but also creates potential pinch points.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline jmur1

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Wood is King
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2019, 02:42:32 PM »
So....I was curious to look at this one - I had a suspicion it might be a little light.

I should clarify first.  The load is assumed to be 24 ton or 48000 lbs

Note this load may never be seen by the backing plate for a couple of reasons.  

1. The I-beam will bend limiting the maximum load the backing plate will see.
2. The wood must resist the load - meaning a real knotty piece
3. The machine must develop the full force of the cylinder capability.

Anyhow the attached captures show a 1 inch plate loaded evenly along the full exposed face will see up to 66 ksi (which should be survivable for 40ksi steel)
The 3/4" plate does not survive the same loading -  it is over 100ksi which is into failure territory.



 



PS if you give me the size of the Ibeam I can better predict the whole arrangement.
Easy does it

Online doc henderson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3233
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Hutchinson, Ks
  • Gender: Male
  • Evil Prevails when Good Men Standby and Do Nothing
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2019, 01:44:44 AM »
a lot of splitters have 3/4" pushers and with reinforcement should do ok.  not sure you can make it too heavy so put as much into it as you would like.  boxing in the beam will help prevent torqueing.  the concern is if the push is automated, then it is harder to stop if it all goes to heck.  with a manual splitter you stop.  if crooked grain is twisting, I stop and back up to let the log center back up and push on.  dry gnarly wood is the worst.  there is always a weak link and without an engineering and R&D department, you go by what others have done, then add repairs and upgrades as you find the weak areas.  
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Rougespear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Salmon Arm, British Columbia
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2019, 10:07:02 AM »
jmur1: nice simulation!  Done in Inventor?  I'm in Solidworks... I need to learn how to perform such a simulation.  Here are more specs for you if you are interested in furthering the simulation: I-beam is 8" x 31lb (5/16" web with 7/16" flanges) and the fishplates reinforcing the backer plate to the I-beam are 1/2" x 6 1/2" plate both sides.  At some point I think you guys are right and the I-beam will begin to become the failure location.

Doc, I'm okay with a 3/4" push because I can refab that easy enough.  I'm more concerned about the wedge backstop because it is integrally welded and not easy to change.




Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline jmur1

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Wood is King
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2019, 02:32:45 PM »
Hi Rougespear:
The simulation is PTC Creo (formerly pro Engineer)
I ran 5 feet of the beam included with the backstop piece.  The beam appears to be nice and heavy for this cylinder.  Deflection will be in the ball park of 3/8" max at the top.  It really didnt change the findings at all (made it abit worse since I had guessed a smaller 6" beam before)

To error on the side of caution is my way, but 3/4" thickness would probably work for a long time with no issues on this splitter.  I will say the 3/4 will be easier to fit in and fishplate in the way you have designed it.

Another thing to consider on this design:  The "wings" of the splitter on occasion will see a large unbalanced load (one sided) .  This will very quickly lead to a bent (twisted) sliding splitter.  I think you have a little bit of overhang there - I would increase that a little more - and lengthen the wings.  Also make sure you use thick material there as well.  I have tried 3/8" material on those wings and had them pop off and bend like nobodies business.  Everything is dependant on the operator and the wood type and size.  All I can tell you is if you build one of these - don't sell your welder when its done!



 


        


 


Easy does it

Offline Hilltop366

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2019, 06:48:57 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.
If you could post that link I would like to see that processor. Sounds like a neat way to do it.  Thanks
@hedgerow I found one, I know I have seen more than one.

Logsplitter homemade holzspalter kloofmachine DIY firewood processor lowbudget - YouTube

Offline hedgerow

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2019, 09:33:46 PM »
Hilltop366 
Thanks for posting that video. That's one slick running processor. 

Offline Gearbox

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Age: 74
  • Location: North MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2019, 09:43:28 PM »
I had a sliver under the plate yesterday and had to un bolt to get it out . This is on my BT6870 processer . My splitter beam is worn down in the middle by .050 or more . I know it does a lot of wood but the bark and junk that gets under the plate wears like crazy . That sliver was stuck so hard it had it in low flow .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Offline Al_Smith

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10307
  • Location: Northwestern Ohio in the center of a giant corn field
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2019, 09:47:59 AM »
If I were  concerned about the beam failing I'd look for a heavier beam to begin with .Mine is a W10-77 meaning 77 pounds per foot .Cut off section of a piling beam .Had two,one on the splitter another for a tilt plate on a bulldozer blade  .I'm not too concerned if they will fail or wear out .The splitter has a 2" thick foot plate as well .Helps balance out the weight of the 5" cylinder which I'm old enough now I can't lift it any more .Even as a younger man that was a chore -----chain falls ----- ;D

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 29399
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2019, 10:42:37 AM »
That splitter will keep ya busy. That belt seems to be a bit fast,but it works good. Well the whole thing works good. Small,short wood.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline luap

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 315
  • Location: western Upper Penninsula
  • Gender: Male
  • Not as good as I once was
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2019, 05:18:54 PM »
Most everything I see off the shelf runs SAE8 ports... so probably on the small side of passing 30gpm.  I could upsize them... just haven't welded on hyd cylinders in my life before.  I'm a good welder, just have to figure out the process for cutting out the old ports and welding in the new ports in such a fashion to NOT destroy hyd seals.  I'm open to suggestions as it seems few people take the time to enlarge ports on shop-built splitters.
On steel cylinders with welded on fittings, I have cut them off with a portaband saw, grinding off any excess weld to clean it up. Making sure the piston is out of the way, I have drilled the holes out larger and used a magnet on a telescoping rod to fish the shavings out. Cover the rod to protect from weld splatter. Grind your starts and stops to prevent overlap and put a second pass over your root pass. Oversize your return hose to go along with larger hose size. You could do one at a time using one fitting to level off of to keep the orientation the same. Lay a wet rag over the rod end to keep heat from the seal.

Offline Hilltop366

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2019, 02:58:04 PM »
Rougespear I came across this video yesterday it made me think about your processor build and wondering how it is going.

Another 2 cylinder processor.

Vedproduktion i Morast - YouTube

Offline hedgerow

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2019, 08:29:06 PM »
Hilltop366 
You found another neat processor thanks for posting the video. Merry Christmas. 

Offline Hilltop366

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2019, 09:40:41 PM »
Your welcome hedgerow, Merry Christmas.


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

moved
MOVED: Looking for 4" x 24" hydraulic cylinder with 3" rod diameter

Started by chet on Firewood and Wood Heating

0 Replies
688 Views
Last post August 16, 2015, 09:05:42 PM
by chet
xx
Wood splitting "technique"

Started by jaustin on Chainsaws

20 Replies
13789 Views
Last post February 05, 2005, 08:02:51 AM
by Engineer
xx
looking to hear some splitting tips on splitting 30"dia. plus rounds with my tw5

Started by adamant on Firewood and Wood Heating

23 Replies
4264 Views
Last post November 12, 2015, 11:31:32 AM
by bigblue12v
xx
Wood-Mizer Hydraulic Pump "HOLD ON" Circuit?

Started by Ga Mtn Man on Sawmills and Milling

11 Replies
1766 Views
Last post April 04, 2014, 01:02:30 AM
by Brucer
 


Powered by EzPortal