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Author Topic: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder  (Read 1848 times)

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Offline Rougespear

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2019, 11:00:18 AM »
Hi all, I am wondering on opinions of the thickness of the splitter backstop with a 24 ton system?  I have the splitter assembly drawn with a 3/4" splitting wedge backed up by a piece of 3/4" x 8" bar.  Does that backup need to be upsized to 1" plate?



Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2019, 12:29:35 PM »
It's unlikely you could bend a 3/4" upright plate with a knife edge spliter.

Offline doc henderson

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2019, 12:22:06 AM »
mine is cold rolled steel 3/4 ".  I bent it a little with a gnarly 32 inch round years back that tried to flip back over it.  the cut was not perpendicular and lots of knots.  I added the top extension.  now recently I was splitting a very dry mulberry log that had several branch points and too big for the splitter, and torqued the pusher a bit, maybe a mm or 2.  not the face, but the plate sliding on the H beam.  so fine 99% of the time, and keep an eye on teenage boys that would prefer if the whole thing did not work anyway.  I tend to be careful since I will have to fix it if I break it.

the design in the pic would really support the face of the pusher.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2019, 07:09:33 AM »
All this talk of heavy duty bullet proof spliters reminds me of a little light duty deal that was given to me .4" beam,1/4" knife edge cutter with a 2.5" cylinder .I replaced the 5 HP Briggs with a 240 volt electric motor that had an amp draw that equated to around 2.7 HP and used a 250 foot roll of 12-2 romex for the power .Laid on the ground with go-kart tires on the back .Pulled it around on the back of a riding lawn mower .
You would not believe what that tiny little thing would split .Sure you could out produce it with an axe for maybe 15 minute but it didn't need a break.just kept keeping on . I gave it to my wifes cousin who still uses it .I had split some 30" oak rounds with it .
Every so often it would stick on a knotty piece .Just noodle it with a chainsaw and break out the steel wedges and 8 pound sledge hammer.Simple as that . 

Online hedgerow

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2019, 08:48:25 AM »
Rougespear   
I don't think you will have a problem with the 3/4 inch back stop. The part you want to watch is the size of the beam. Those knotty pieces always like to torque the beam right ahead of were the wedge is attached. I would make that slide as long as you can  to cut down on the movement of the slide as things get worn. One of the best slides I have seen was on a old Uhaul rent splitter with a four inch cylinder that had a two foot slide on it. Splitter had been a rent unit for years and was forty years old and the slide was still tight. A lot of movement on the slide is hard on cylinder's. 

Offline doc henderson

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2019, 10:01:38 AM »
my pusher bottom has a plate, then a spacer the thickness of the h beam web, then washers to shim a bit more.  then a bottom piece to hold it onto the H beam top.  i can replace the bottoms or turn them over when worn, and or thin the washers down after wear to tighten things up.  see prev. pics.  I like the reinforcement in the pic, that covers the cylinder, but also creates potential pinch points.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline jmur1

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2019, 02:42:32 PM »
So....I was curious to look at this one - I had a suspicion it might be a little light.

I should clarify first.  The load is assumed to be 24 ton or 48000 lbs

Note this load may never be seen by the backing plate for a couple of reasons.  

1. The I-beam will bend limiting the maximum load the backing plate will see.
2. The wood must resist the load - meaning a real knotty piece
3. The machine must develop the full force of the cylinder capability.

Anyhow the attached captures show a 1 inch plate loaded evenly along the full exposed face will see up to 66 ksi (which should be survivable for 40ksi steel)
The 3/4" plate does not survive the same loading -  it is over 100ksi which is into failure territory.



 



PS if you give me the size of the Ibeam I can better predict the whole arrangement.
Easy does it

Offline doc henderson

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2019, 01:44:44 AM »
a lot of splitters have 3/4" pushers and with reinforcement should do ok.  not sure you can make it too heavy so put as much into it as you would like.  boxing in the beam will help prevent torqueing.  the concern is if the push is automated, then it is harder to stop if it all goes to heck.  with a manual splitter you stop.  if crooked grain is twisting, I stop and back up to let the log center back up and push on.  dry gnarly wood is the worst.  there is always a weak link and without an engineering and R&D department, you go by what others have done, then add repairs and upgrades as you find the weak areas.  
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Rougespear

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2019, 10:07:02 AM »
jmur1: nice simulation!  Done in Inventor?  I'm in Solidworks... I need to learn how to perform such a simulation.  Here are more specs for you if you are interested in furthering the simulation: I-beam is 8" x 31lb (5/16" web with 7/16" flanges) and the fishplates reinforcing the backer plate to the I-beam are 1/2" x 6 1/2" plate both sides.  At some point I think you guys are right and the I-beam will begin to become the failure location.

Doc, I'm okay with a 3/4" push because I can refab that easy enough.  I'm more concerned about the wedge backstop because it is integrally welded and not easy to change.




Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline jmur1

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2019, 02:32:45 PM »
Hi Rougespear:
The simulation is PTC Creo (formerly pro Engineer)
I ran 5 feet of the beam included with the backstop piece.  The beam appears to be nice and heavy for this cylinder.  Deflection will be in the ball park of 3/8" max at the top.  It really didnt change the findings at all (made it abit worse since I had guessed a smaller 6" beam before)

To error on the side of caution is my way, but 3/4" thickness would probably work for a long time with no issues on this splitter.  I will say the 3/4 will be easier to fit in and fishplate in the way you have designed it.

Another thing to consider on this design:  The "wings" of the splitter on occasion will see a large unbalanced load (one sided) .  This will very quickly lead to a bent (twisted) sliding splitter.  I think you have a little bit of overhang there - I would increase that a little more - and lengthen the wings.  Also make sure you use thick material there as well.  I have tried 3/8" material on those wings and had them pop off and bend like nobodies business.  Everything is dependant on the operator and the wood type and size.  All I can tell you is if you build one of these - don't sell your welder when its done!



 


        


 


Easy does it

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2019, 06:48:57 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.
If you could post that link I would like to see that processor. Sounds like a neat way to do it.  Thanks
@hedgerow I found one, I know I have seen more than one.

Logsplitter homemade holzspalter kloofmachine DIY firewood processor lowbudget - YouTube

Online hedgerow

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2019, 09:33:46 PM »
Hilltop366 
Thanks for posting that video. That's one slick running processor. 

Offline Gearbox

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2019, 09:43:28 PM »
I had a sliver under the plate yesterday and had to un bolt to get it out . This is on my BT6870 processer . My splitter beam is worn down in the middle by .050 or more . I know it does a lot of wood but the bark and junk that gets under the plate wears like crazy . That sliver was stuck so hard it had it in low flow .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2019, 09:47:59 AM »
If I were  concerned about the beam failing I'd look for a heavier beam to begin with .Mine is a W10-77 meaning 77 pounds per foot .Cut off section of a piling beam .Had two,one on the splitter another for a tilt plate on a bulldozer blade  .I'm not too concerned if they will fail or wear out .The splitter has a 2" thick foot plate as well .Helps balance out the weight of the 5" cylinder which I'm old enough now I can't lift it any more .Even as a younger man that was a chore -----chain falls ----- ;D

Offline thecfarm

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2019, 10:42:37 AM »
That splitter will keep ya busy. That belt seems to be a bit fast,but it works good. Well the whole thing works good. Small,short wood.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline luap

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2019, 05:18:54 PM »
Most everything I see off the shelf runs SAE8 ports... so probably on the small side of passing 30gpm.  I could upsize them... just haven't welded on hyd cylinders in my life before.  I'm a good welder, just have to figure out the process for cutting out the old ports and welding in the new ports in such a fashion to NOT destroy hyd seals.  I'm open to suggestions as it seems few people take the time to enlarge ports on shop-built splitters.
On steel cylinders with welded on fittings, I have cut them off with a portaband saw, grinding off any excess weld to clean it up. Making sure the piston is out of the way, I have drilled the holes out larger and used a magnet on a telescoping rod to fish the shavings out. Cover the rod to protect from weld splatter. Grind your starts and stops to prevent overlap and put a second pass over your root pass. Oversize your return hose to go along with larger hose size. You could do one at a time using one fitting to level off of to keep the orientation the same. Lay a wet rag over the rod end to keep heat from the seal.

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2019, 02:58:04 PM »
Rougespear I came across this video yesterday it made me think about your processor build and wondering how it is going.

Another 2 cylinder processor.

Vedproduktion i Morast - YouTube

Online hedgerow

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2019, 08:29:06 PM »
Hilltop366 
You found another neat processor thanks for posting the video. Merry Christmas. 

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2019, 09:40:41 PM »
Your welcome hedgerow, Merry Christmas.


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