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Author Topic: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder  (Read 1496 times)

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Offline jmur1

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2019, 12:40:29 PM »
Fully agree with the rod size increase.  This does make a difference in the cycle time and the rod bending resistance.  Also a big supporter of the piloted dump valve.  I have two running on mine for both the split cycle and the return.  Both cycles run all your oil back through the control valve which is not necessary.  If you dump a percentage of it back to tank it will noticeably improve the cycle time. 

I was running a 5 inch cylinder through a 6 way head and had more force than I needed - (often resulting in damage).  I convert to a 4 and found it to be nearly perfect for the hardest wood I am doing.   Knotty cherry, and beech.  (Also running lots of ash that it flies through)  

Either way  - If you can figure out how to run a multi wedge without needing a sledge hammer, Ill cheers that!

jmur1  
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Offline hedgerow

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2019, 01:39:20 PM »
Rougespear
Don't cheap out on the hyd cylinder it's the heart of a processor and will get cycled a lot. I would go with a five inch with a 3.5 or a four inch rod. Get it made with 3/4 or 1 inch ports and use a pilot dump valve that bigger rod size really speeds up the cycle time. Check places like Surplus Center in Lincoln Ne or get a machine shop hyd shop to build one. If you have enough horse power you can ran a single stage 30 GPM pump you get the right cylinder that processor will be fast. 

Offline sawguy21

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2019, 01:51:47 PM »
I am not far from him, he has a top notch local machine shop. Princess Auto in Kamloops or Kelowna is a one stop shop for things hydraulic.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2019, 06:09:50 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.

Offline hedgerow

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2019, 08:21:12 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.
If you could post that link I would like to see that processor. Sounds like a neat way to do it.  Thanks 

Offline Rougespear

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2019, 09:03:27 PM »
Sawguy: I never noticed you were so close!  I haven't spoken with Reliable Rebuilders yet regarding getting a cylinder made up.  Or were you referring to another "good hyd/machine shop"?

I was thinking of trying a standard 4.5" x 24" cylinder with a 1.75" rod and go from there.  The cylinder is easy enough to change out should I not like the performance.

jmur1: could you elaborate a bit on your dump valves?  I have the basic idea, but not solid in my mind.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2019, 09:28:25 PM »
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45 from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.
If you could post that link I would like to see that processor. Sounds like a neat way to do it.  Thanks
I looked for the video when I posted but did not find it, I will look some more.

Offline doc henderson

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2019, 09:56:21 PM »
                                             
found on splitez web site.  on the phone sounds like they know a thing or two.


  Dump Valve

 

  • Less heat.

  • Less wear on main valve.

  • Less restriction.
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
  5 " Bore cylinder with a 2.5" shaft on return stroke a 28 GPM pump will push more than 28 GPM of fluid out the return port of cylinder. A 30 GPM dump valve will take  up to 30 GPM away from Hydraulic control valve less load on main valve.
 
How to plum a hydraulic dump valve.
 
    Dump valve number  1-2-3 on block.
 
Port 3  Hydraulic hose shaft end of cylinder.
Port 2  Hydraulic hose back to hydraulic tank.
Port 1  Hydraulic hose to pressure end of hydraulic cylinder.
 
 

 Horizontal Log Splitter with Dump Valve    
[/font][/size]


[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
 
 
 

 
Shown with all the options hose & fittings and LS 3000 2 Mounter on Vertical Log Splitter
 
Price each  30 GPM   $ 135.95
Price each  65 GPM   $ 226.95
 [/font][/size]

timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline sawguy21

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2019, 12:22:05 AM »
Sawguy: I never noticed you were so close!  I haven't spoken with Reliable Rebuilders yet regarding getting a cylinder made up.  Or were you referring to another "good hyd/machine shop"?

I was thinking of trying a standard 4.5" x 24" cylinder with a 1.75" rod and go from there.  The cylinder is easy enough to change out should I not like the performance.

jmur1: could you elaborate a bit on your dump valves?  I have the basic idea, but not solid in my mind.
Is Newnes  Machine still around?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Rougespear

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2019, 12:34:00 AM »
I think around in a sense... but definitely long gone as Newns.  Went to school with a couple of those boys back in the day.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline hedgerow

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2019, 09:54:43 AM »
I have gotten a few dump valves from Splitez they were good people to work with. I think you may be able to get a oversize rod cylinder from them also. There web site is a good one. 

Offline jmur1

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2019, 01:33:20 PM »
I got my dump valves at a small hydraulic shop in Guelph (Industrial Hydraulics).  I plumbed them right on the cylinder lines.



 



 

I will pull the details on the valves for you.
Easy does it

Offline jmur1

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2019, 06:16:08 PM »
The Valve numbers are VBPS02S (looks like an Italian supplier see attached spec) I paid $98 Canadian in 2015
3/8" line fittings and around 48 GPM per the spec.

Fairly simple to add in.  Need two "T" connectors and additional line/fittings back to tank.
The "pilot" connection on this one is 1/4" NPT and the "Flow" connection is 3/8 NPT.

1. "T" into the high pressure side of the cylinder with the 1/4" pilot line back to the dump valve.    This line tells the dump valve when to open.
2. "T" into the return side of the cylinder with the 3/8" line and connect the "flow" line on one side of the valve to this "T" and the other side to tank.  I'm sure there was an arrow on it so make sure that is correct.  Thats it.  I have been using this setup for several years now and so far so good.  I have had some curious hesitation on occasion but nothing that resulted in action yet.  Definitely necessary to have a good hydraulic filter on your system and change it as required.
It paid for itself in the first year - you will notice the speed difference. 

jmur1



 

  
Easy does it

Offline jmur1

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2019, 06:54:46 PM »
I would also like to mention a comment about the larger rod size.  While it is true that a properly braced cylinder will typically see lower levels of bending in the rod, there are some cases where this will still fail.
For my processor you may run any where from 6" to 20" diameter logs.  
Properly locating the center of the cylinder on a push plate to avoid the bending on the push plate is tricky when you have to consider a line center of action from 3" to 10" vertical.  
Wear makes things loose and small angles grow over time.
I bent my 2" rod (on my 5" cylinder) in a nice "U"one day - and I am the wise careful owner!   Many logs over time put a small angle on the plate and when you are pushing 60 large tonnage that can very quickly bend the rod.
PS some cuts are better left off to the side for the hand splitter!
jmur1  
Easy does it

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2019, 07:32:22 PM »
Oversize rods are more for speed than strength. 3/4" hose should be plenty and I think it must be 6 wire. To go to 1" hose sounds like a problem and should not be necessary.

Offline doc henderson

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2019, 08:47:11 PM »
i would start with something affordable.  bigger ports may help with huge flow but if it is a short length, not much effect.  i mounted my valve (turned upside down) direct on the cylinder.  the rest of the hose is 3/4 inch or sae number 12 fittings.  the dump valve is for the large volume of oil being pushed out, to return to the reservoir via the control valve.  it bypasses and reduces the heat and restriction relative to that volume.  splitez also sells a double stick double detent valve that will speed things up.  not for kids or gnarly wood that might break something.
i got my cylinder cause it was a odd size special ordered and not picked up.  i think they had four of them and i paid 150$ for a 5 inch x 32 inch with 2 inch rod.  new in the box.  if you find a good deal on a 4 inch and can get two you could stack them and double the power (force), divide the flow and reduce friction/heat that way.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Gearbox

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2019, 09:50:15 PM »
Are you going to run a circle saw or a hydraulic chainsaw . You are looking for speed in the splitter . If your running a circle saw you need a very fast cycle time . A chainsaw not so much . Ask guys with large hydraulic chainsaw for there saw cycle time on 20 inch wood and build from there . My processer has a 8 to 10 second cycle time and run a bush cord an hour one 74 year old man loading with a bobcat and running the machine .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Offline Rougespear

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2019, 01:08:09 AM »
Will be a hyd saw... circle saws are too big for my liking.

Thanks jmur1 for the details - very much appreciated.

I priced out a custom cylinder at the local hyd shop today: $1k CDN for a 4.5" bore, 3" rod and 24" stroke.  So I grabbed a regular 4.5" cylinder from the local "big distributor" instead.  I will upsize the ports if I am dissatisfied/have a problem with hydraulic system heat.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Offline wiam

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2019, 05:59:55 AM »
Jmur1, are you running dump oil through return filter?

Offline jmur1

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Re: 4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2019, 09:24:26 AM »
Hi wiam
I am not running the dump oil through the filter.  It goes straight to tank.  I figured out of the other 5 valve channels that run on a consistent basis, there was enough filtering of the oil already.  I run the control valve return line directly through the filter.
jmur1
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