Foundation Footers?

[Kirk_Allen]

Being laid up I figured I might as well start the plans on the new shop.  I plan on building a 100x60 shop. 

I plan on putting in the paremeter footings first so I can get the sides and roof up and then pooring the main floor in sections after its all covered.  Good idea or not?

My main question is in regards to footings.   What is the best dimensions for footings.  Depth, Width etc.  The walls are going to be 16' so I figure I will use either 2x6 or 2x8 studs. 

I can build anything but dont know squat about cement, other than I can finish it real well ;D  Did my brothers shop floor and it turned out great!

[Minnesota_boy]

Well, first you dig down about 12 feet to get below the frost line, Uh wait, you aren't from around here are you? :D ;D

[Kirk_Allen]

Our frost line requirements in the closest city is 48" but we dont have any requirements in the country.............other than my own, which is to do it right. 

I assume I need them to be 48" deep?  What type of bedding goes below them?  Sand, gravel etc?

[Ironwood]

I am building a new shop sometime soon as well. Do you mean "footers" as in below the block foundation which is the perimeter the wall sits on ??? OR do you mean "footing" as in what steel columns will bear on? My building will have ten footings for the columns of steel to support the roof.  The walls will only fill the "voids" between the columns (20'long 14' high) and be on slab on grade style perimeter concrete slab.

  My only concern would be to over do the foundation, as I have seen to many nice buildings on garbage foundations. It is all decided by local soil/bedrock and weather conditions. OVERBUILD!

  You also need to consider if you have floor heat and don't overlook "slab on grade" systems as they are cost effective and functon well.  Use lots of rebar!!  Just my two cents.

  REID

[footer]

Kirk,
I would call your county or city building inspector office and give them the details on your building, and ask them for the foundation requirements. Here in Nebraska, our local codes call for any where from 3 feet to 4 feet from finished grade to bottom of footing. The footing has to be at least 16" wide x 8" thick. You realy need the advice of a local building inspector, or a local contractor that can tell you your requirements. They are different everywhere you go.

[pasbuild]

In my area the county inspector wont tell you what you need he will only tell you if what you have is right or wrong :( Building of that size here would require a footing 24" X 12" with two runs of #4 rebar.
what you need is a structural engineer to run the loads for you. I think Engineer is a civil engineer maybe he can do the numbers for you ;)

[DanG]

Kirk, drop by Lowe's and pick up a book called "Foundations and Concrete Work.  It gives you a lot of basics, as well as tips and tricks to setting your rebar, etc.  I've picked up a lot from it.

[J_T]

Reid I think them are called piers. Last concreat I messed with was a pore in Texas dug the footing formed the floor put in rebar and pored it all at once . We always liked an extra bag per yard mix . Much stouter and finishes better. Since I got older would hate to do that big a job any more .Have had 50 yards on the ground at once in the old days  :( Good luck. 8)

[footer]

Kirk, Footings are usually required to go on virgin soil. If excevated too far, the fill would have to be packed. If 48" is required in your closest town, you would be pretty safe with that. I know your frost don't go down near as deep in MO as it does up here.

[Kirk_Allen]

Kirk,
I would call your county or city building inspector office and give them the details on your building, and ask them for the foundation requirements. Here in Nebraska, our local codes call for any where from 3 feet to 4 feet from finished grade to bottom of footing. The footing has to be at least 16" wide x 8" thick. You realy need the advice of a local building inspector, or a local contractor that can tell you your requirements. They are different everywhere you go.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
We dont have ANY building inspectors what so ever.  When I did the roof I tried to find some code information and the lumber yard guys laughed me out of the place.  They said, "What do you want to do? What ever it is just do it.  We aint got no code requirements here.  We aint like you city folk.  Cept now if you want a ceptic system.  Thats fed stuff but most folk just do what they want on that too!".

[Kirk_Allen]

Thanks Dang.  I will pick one up next time im in town. 

[woodmills1]

On my garage addition I used 2 x 6 walls and my foorings were 16" wide and 12" thick.  I set them 48" deep on undisturbed or well tamped subsoil.

[Ironwood]

J-T,

  Yes, thanks, piers.

  Lets see,,,,,,call the building code enforcement guy, sounds like shooting yourself in the foot.  Seriously though, we have called them for some things, I just don't give my name.....that clearly...I muttle through the intro and get right to the question. The less they know the better, we live way off he road and out of site.

                         REID

[Tom_Averwater]

In Ohio you would need at least a 20  x 8  inch footer. Are you going to lay up a block wall for the perimeter ? You could use a block called a header block  on the top row to contain the concret . I  would get your slab poured before you frame the walls. It sure makes it alot easier.  Tom   8)

[Engineer]

Kirk,

Dig down to native soil, 48" below the anticipated finished grade.   Your footings should be 8-10" thick and 20-24" wide.   Pour on undisturbed soil that has been compacted with a plate tamper or jumping jack rammer.  If for some reason, you overdig, fill the low spots with crushed stone, not dirt - it will settle and your footing will be suspended in midair.  The footing should be reinforced with a minimum of 2- #4 rebars, suspended about 3" from the bottom and each side of the footing.  That can be done by either placing on 'chairs' especially for reinforcing, or by hanging the bars from form wire suspended from crosspieces on the footing.

It's not rocket science unless you have a complicated structure, strange soils or unusual loads.  E-mail me if you have any questions.

Jon (PE but not in IL)

[Kirk_Allen]

So if my footers are only 8-10" thick and they are 48" down then what goes on top of that to get me even with grade which is about 3" above said footings?

What I had invisioned was basically digging a 20" wide trench down 48".  Then put in my rebar and fill the trench with cement.  I was planning on putting the walls directly on the cement footer. Im getting the impression I am way off on this. 

[etat]

What I had invisioned was basically digging a 20" wide trench down 48".  Then put in my rebar and fill the trench with cement.  I was planning on putting the walls directly on the cement footer. Im getting the impression I am way off on this.

Well, that's just right near about how I done the footer fer my house.  I don't know the first dang thing about concrete but that's wha I see done a lot. Lots a folks around her only dig em about two feet, sometimes less,  on smaller houses. 

I've seen em pour big slabs and have some cross trenches dug to help strengthen the thing in the middle. When on fill dirt or bad soil I've seen em spot dig piers about every ten feet or so to help keep the slab from sinking.

I also know that you can order the concrete with different mixes depending how strong you want it to be. I also understand a drier mix cures harder but is much harder to work.  Keeping it covered and wet and letting it cure slow also makes it harder.

Some folks that want to pour a thinner slab or will less rebar have them mix fiberglass with the concrete at the factory.  I tried to help a plumber bust through a hole through a 4 inch slab one time that had fiberglass in it.  We drilled nearly a full circle out with a rotary hammer and still like to never busted that piece out. That concrete was hard.  I tried to suggest we go get some blasting powder or dynamite but he wouldn't hear none of that. 

That is exactly 'everything' I know or think I know about concrete.

[Stump Jumper]

First off, I don't know much about concrete but I do know you better make your workshop bigger because you always need more room.  Maybe increase by 1/3.    :D ;D 8)

[Stump Jumper]

Almost forgot hope you get feelin' better.  Our prayers are with you.

[Furby]

Kirk,
For standard basements in this area they pour a 8" deep x 16" wide footing, below the frost line or at the depth of the basement, centered under the wall. Then the blocks are laid, or a concrete wall is poured. In most cases both are 8" thick, unless the structure requires more. The footing should be at least twice the thickness of the wall to spread the weight. The wall sould extend about 10" or more above grade. It can be less, but it does help keep the moisture down on the sheathing and such. I assume you are talking 16' walls without a second floor? Depending on the type of stucture you build, you may have to go bigger on the footings.

If you are planning to have a couple of 14' overhead doors in the building, you can pour the floor later. Otherwise I'd take the time to pour the floor before putting up the walls, or all the concrete will have to be moved around inside the building by bocat and such means. If you hire out the pouring of the floor, you'll get a better price if you do it before the walls.

As stated, there are many different "mixes" of concrete. Some are different just by area of the country. If you can spare the cash, I'd hire someone to do atleast the footings and also pour concrete walls. They can do it in 2 or 3 days, and then be out of the picture. Also they will use the concrete mix appropriate for the area and conditions, I.E. time of year and soil. You can do the floor yourself with some help, but if you hire it out you'll probly end up with a better finished product, due simply to the size of the building.

[woodmills1]

trouble is concret is really expensive and the planned dig doesnt ever get to be so nice with what you find in the ground.  So you excavate to 4 foot then cut some 12 ich boards of junk or better level them on undisturbed earth and pour them full of concrete.  Then ya build forms to bring concrete up to the grade you want.  You can buid then floor later.  good luck just diggin and pourin thats what I wanted to do but the soil let me down.

[footer]

Kirk, It isnt just the city folk around here that has to follow the building codes. It is any one anywhere in the said countys. If I were to build a building and didn't get a permit, and somehow the building inspection dopt foun out, they could, and most likely make you tear it down and make you start over.
I know there are places that are like you state, and thay don't enforce any codes, it was just a thought on haw to find what was right in your area. Here there would be nothiung wrong with digging a 16" wide trench and filling it with concrete to make the footing and foundation wall in one. You just cant dig an 8" trench and fill it up with no footing under it. Although that is allowed in the county next to us if you are outside of the jurisdiction of the city.

[Kirk_Allen]

Since there is not going to be a basement what is accomplished by going below the frost line? 

[Buzz-sawyer]

The deal with frost line is to prevent frost heaving and shifting of yer shed
However , you can build a floater, a monolithic pour, which means it has a shallow footer around the edge and the floor as one integral unit...they work, but you need some steel in there also.

In a conventional footer foundation combo do use 2 pieces of re bar in the footer and also every16 inches or so in your foundation bend 90 degrees around the corner and tie irt all together....it will last and maintain its integrity...

[maple flats]

An old saying about building a shop for what it's worth. Build it twice as big as you think you'll need and you'll have half of what you actually need!! 8) 8) 8) On the concrete it sounds like 4' should be good for depth for your area. I would pour it 10"thick and 24"wide with rebar sticking up every 2' and rebar horizontally 3-4 inches in from outer edge and up from bottom. Then I would pour a 12"wall on top of it to finish several inches above grade and put the studded wall you want on that. Remember to also put ties or j-bolts to anchor the stud wall plate down about every 4' or so with one in about a foot from each corner. Not an engineerr, fact cant even spell it, but did some building in the past. You should also rebar the top of the poured wall in similar spacing as suggested for the footer but with the rebar down about 4-6" from the top and 3-4" in from each edge. The footer is to keep things from settling and bear the weight, then the poured wall just saves expensive concrete as opposed to making the footer contain all that extra concrete (unless ya won the lottery big time) :

[Larry]

I built this 30' X 50'  floater 4 years ago...so far no problems with cracks in the concrete or drywall.  Put in #4 rebar 12" on center.




Year later built a 40' X 60' with conventional foundation 8" thick.  Footer was 8" X 16" and it was in a county with strict building codes.  Had to be 36" deep.  Cost and time was a lot more...even with our own labor, machines, and forms.  Went ahead and stuck the same amount of steel in it as the floater just to be safe.

Floaters are always cheaper and many times just as good as the conventional foundation for a shop.  Don't have any idea which would be appropriate for your area.  Think it would be time and money well spent to contact an engineer, architect, or experienced builder in your area and ask for there recommendation.

[Kirk_Allen]

I tried speaking with several contractors and they want $300 to come out and do an estimate.  I told them I am just looking for some advice right now and they said they get paid for there advice. 

I remember a skate boad park we built in Springfield back in the 80's.  The shop was octogan shape and the slab was a floater, but even that one had 48" depth on the parimiter.  Did that trench by hand >:(  Not this time ;D  Back hoe or no go!

[Larry]

Kirk, see if you can get a hold of the owner of your local concrete plant.  When I built the last floater I got a lot of free good advice.  Some of it saved money...he told me the fiberglass was mainly to control shrinkage cracks and not to use it if using rebar. ;D  He also pointed me in the direction of a few recent pours so I could see for myself how they were doing things.

[Kirk_Allen]

Thanks Larry.  Sounds like a great idea. 

I have a friend in Arkansas that used the fiberglass in his slab and they told him you dont need rebar with it.  Not sure if I am ready to except that peice of info just yet.  Thats just my skepticism comeing out but I do hear a lot of good things about it.

The dig should not be to bad.  I have access to a back hoe and I think I am going to shift my site to just south of where I cut, which has been farm field for 100 years.  I dont think I will run into any digging snafoos so that will help. 

If I have to make forms I assume you could do that out of 3/4 ply?   Might get pretty spendy just in the forms since I need to come up 4 feet.  Thats going to be a LOT of plywood.  I will have to check and see what contractors will charge to do that part.  They said if I hire them, the $300 for the estimate is applied to the bill. Thanks :(

Lots of home work to do and I appreciate any and all input.

[Buzz-sawyer]

I have been building these things since 1984 ...dont know if that qualifies me as a professional contractor in your area but here goes...$300 is not necissary........ ;)
Here is what I mentioned about the footing and re bar....(disregard the step form)

[Tom]

When I worked for my Uncle, years ago, he wouldn't have let a digging machine within a hundred yards of a footer.   He wanted it hand dug, straight, flat with clean sides and done with a shovel.  I learned from an expert that you pace yourself working on stuff like this.  It actually goes pretty quick.

If you have a sawmill and logs, why buy plywood for forms?  Boards work fine even if you have to use double thicknesses.  Nobody will see seams in a footer anyway.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Regarding the 48"
depth you guys have been throwing around,
for this lattitude that is way over kill.
Detroit has a 42" code requirement, here the standard is 36".........that adds up to a LOT of cost difference in concrete...any money saved should be put into steel,

concrete is like muscle , steel is the bones that allow it to be strong.
A monolithic slab, or floater uses the footing around its edge to stabilize it and keep it from creeping.
Tom
I dug several foundations by hand as a result of proximity to other buildings , and a good pace makes it easier than one woould think, almost fun.......welll, almost

Kurt I once built custom form out of 3/4 plywood and all thread, they were self supporting and could be picked up and placed as a unit in the trenches, they were latter used for flooring in the same house.
I made a instructional video as I did it.

[Kirk_Allen]

I guess I could use some Hackberry for forms.  Cant bring myself to use anything else.  You see, thats part of the problem with trying to be a woodworker and a Sawyer.  I look at every peice and can think of a project I could use it for.  I just need to accept the fact that a LOT of those projects will never get done.  Just dont have time. ;D

Is it best to pour the entire footings in one pour or do it in sections?  I assume one pour is the best but with just my wife and I doing the work not sure if thats a good idea. 

[Buzz-sawyer]

Oh, one last comment, you may want to cosider using foam under the slab in addition to your vapor barrier , it will help prevent the floor from sweating and keep you warmer.

[Kirk_Allen]

I was planning on using 2" blue foam board on the slap.  Still getting the numbers on the heat tubing for the floor.  I want to go that route as I know if I dont I will wish that I had. 

[Larry]

Concrete guys have told me the fiberglass can take the place of wire mesh...especially the wire mesh that nobody pulls up into the center of the slab.  No way can it take the place of rebar.  I did a little more investigation...little hard to finish...sometimes leaves a wooly surface...and turns slick.  JMO I would rather put money into rebar.

If you use plywood for foundation forms could you re-use it for sub-flooring or roof sheathing?  It would be lots of work using solid wood.  What about renting forms?  Or using blocks and core filling?  Just throwing out ideas...don't know if they are good or not.

I always put my footers in like Buzz showed.  Over the years ya pick up few tricks and stuff.  Found out when you overlap the rebar to meet most codes it has to be lapped something like 20 times the diameter if I remember right.

[Buzz-sawyer]

All I can say about fiber taking the place of structural steel, is that, respectfully , I think those fellas have wishful thinking.
I wonder if they ever demo concrete, which one breaks easier, which one is as strong as all get out, and stays in slab form when elevated and droppped....Steel baby!!

[Minnesota_boy]

Steel rusts, fiberglass doesn't.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Minn
I am just curious,
I dont get the comparison ???
I have never seen fiberglass rebar, or structural mesh (other than in fiberglass lay up)
Do you mean that rebar and mesh will degrade? I have never experienced that in above water concrete applications.It lacks oxygen in there, thus difficult to oxidize?I have broken too much steel reinforced concrete, or I should say tried to, It always has a patina of rust but hangs on for grim death.
The best I can figure the strength of fiber is similair to the horse hair put in plaster years ago , to give it some  amount of structural integrity...

[Minnesota_boy]

We have some extreme weather conditions up here, sothe comparison may not be valid, but lots of concrete bridge decks have had to be replaced because the rebar was rusting apart.  My only experience with the fiberglass in concrete was a floating slab in on building which hasn't cracked yet in 20 years. YMMV

[Tom_Averwater]

Around here  (southwest Ohio) for buildings with monolithic pours, they will use a 8'' trencher and trench down 30'' ,thats our code,around the perimeter of the building .Then they would form the slab/building  perimeter and pour the concrete. 2 to 3  #4 rebar were suspended in the trench. You could use your     2 x 6 or 2 x 8 wall studs as form boards and then use them in the wall. I would hold the building at least 12''  above the highest point of grade. Better to be a little high than low.         I  poured  a 48 x 30  slab on 18'' peirs with fiber mesh and it worked out great. Thats just my thoughts.  Tom

[Kirk_Allen]

OK, teach me:
Monolithic pour?
A slab on 18" peirs?

Any thoughts on whether to use 2x8 stud walls or 2x6?  If I can get away with 2x6 I will have MORE than enough lumber!

[tnlogger]

 kirk i was wondering how about a pole barn. you can get by with 8x8s 20' long on 8' centers 20 of them less the doors. 2x6 purlins every 4' and metal siding with bat insuation under the metal. you can still pour a slab around the posts. if you want a clear span build your own trusses out of 2x6s on a 5/12 pitch. with 2x4 purlins on edge for the metal roof. I helped build a 45x90 a few years ago for a woodworking shop. its still standing lol and a lot cheaper then stick built.
just thowing a thought out here 

[footer]

I agree that 48" or 42" is excessive in MO. also. But for some unknown reason, here in Nebraska, One county has 36" requirements and the next one over has 48".  Some places it is different from in town to out in the country.  I know for a fact that some winters, we have frost down more than 3 feet. A lot can depend on the soil type, and if there is snow on the ground through the Cold spells.   BTW, some places don't even require a frost footing if you insulate around the parimeter with styrophome, either streight down or out horizontally so that frost will not reach below the footing. That would be in a heated building though.

[Furby]

tnlogger is right about the pole building, but you have more costs involved in the finishing of the interior.
Most cases it's cheaper to do a pole building then stick frame, based on concrete costs alone, but it all comes down to what you want to do.

There are people around here that do pour a slab at grade and lay a course or two of blocks on top and then the stick framed walls. I helped on a 24'x36' and a 36'x40' built that way. Code does allow it in this area for "out buildings". Not to say that the best way to go though, because most people do go the extra effort and do the footings. Unless of course it is a pole building.

One thing I'd like to point out is the possible problems of laying a slab on farm field. It's possible that it may have too high amount of organic matter and may settle more and cause cracks.

Unless you are waaaaay out in the middle of no where, these guys should be giving free estimates if they want the work. I'd keep calling around. Don't ask for advice, just ask for an estimate and tell them you are considering do it this way, or maybe that way, ect. ;) Some I have talked to on the phone simply give me a sq. ft. price, others want to see things and give you a full write up on costs.

[Kirk_Allen]

Furby,
One advantage on the field is that it has been no till for twenty years.  Soil compaction is pretty good but I plan on taking off the good top soil anyway.  I have about 18" of top soil before I get to hard Clay.

I thought about pole building but this is something I want to last for my life time and with no maintenance.  I do plan on heating all of it some day but for now I will partition one end for my personal woodshop etc. 

I will try to make some more calls next week and see what I can come up with.  The problem is that we ARE way out in the middle of nowhwere.  Our town has 1 gas station, 1 stop sign, 1 bank, 3 Grain Elevators ;D

Our closest big town is Terre Haute, IN and that is 30 miles away. 

[Furby]

But still $300 bucks for an estimate ???
I'm in the wrong line of work then!  : : :

Sounds like ya got the soil thing figured out. ;)

[Minnesota_boy]

Kirk,
You have it all wrong.  Removing that 18" of topsoil is going to be alot of work, and then you need some kind of fill or your floor will be below the ground level and water will run in any time it rains or you have snow melt.  Move up here.  You will only have about 6" of "topsoil" and gravel under it.  Gravel makes a better soil to put under your building anyway.  Also, we have no building codes to have to follow, except for wells and septic seperation and electrical.  We don't need them, nature will tell you if you have built wrong by collapsing your building. 
My garage has a foot wide footer under the walls and 4" of floor with no rebar anywhere.  Nowhere near below frost lone, but with the gravel underneath, the ground doesn't hump with freezing, so my footers are sufficient.  The floor ended up with one crack after nearly 25 years of service.

[tnlogger]

 furby what we do is lathe the ind side walls and ceilings with 4/4 and use usb board or roofing metal. on the wood shop he got cover sheets for the place he bought his metal.
i think kevin paid 15cents a foot for scatched cover sheets 1.50 for a 3'x10' sheet.
then all he did was spray paint the whole thing white on the walls and ceiling.

[Kirk_Allen]

Since I have the option of 2x6 or 2x8 what would you go with?  I need to cut this stuff over the next few weeks but dont want to overkill this to much. 

16" or 24" centers- Pros and cons?

[Furby]

16' studs will probly require blocking between the studs to keep them from twisting/shifting.
I'd probly do 16" o.c. my self, not real sure about 2x6 vs 2x8, but at 16" o.c., I don't know why 2x6 wouldn't work if you are not carrying a second floor.

[etat]

16' studs will probly require blocking between the studs to keep them from twisting/shifting.

I agree, and I been thinking about this a lot.  I guess I'm a little confused.


I just can't picture the need for the outside walls needing to be 16 feet tall.  I haven't got my little book handy but by the time you add in the pich of the roof in the middle you're gonna be building one TALL building. Seems to me like it's gonna cost a fortune to cover up the outside of them walls.  If it was just cause I wanted a tall ceiling I think I'd start with  10 foot walls and make some sizzor trusses or something to get the ceiling height up.  I seriously think I'd use something like 6'/6's or 8/8's spaced 6 or 8 feet apart instead of stick framing and tie em together at the top using beams rather than building a stick wall. 

I also think I'd do the same wih the rafters,use heavy boards and put em 6 foot apart, right on top of the posts.  I'm thinking fashion the guts of the thing similar to a steel framed building.  I't then tie between the posts with approprate sized 2/ materal run 'horiziontal' to fasten the metal too which would be run vertical on the outside walls.  Two by fours would do for joining the sides, especially if they were joined in between the posts edgeways instead of being nailed outside of the posts. 

If I wanted to insulate the thing, and I would I'd get them bit rolls of insulation like they use on metal buildings and fasten to the outside of my woodwork before fastening the metal outside. Screw the metal right through the insulation into the woodwork.  That's what I did in my shop but I fabricated all steel, just didn't have a sawmill and enough trees like some people I know.

I'd have my rafters, either heavy timbers, or doubled 2/8's and trussed up a bit and connect em side to side with 2/6's, turned edgeways up and down and then I'd have built in laths to fasten a metal roof too.  If using heavy commercial metal for the roof you could space the laths up to 4 foot apart, but as I said they wouldn't be fastened flat to the top of the rafters, they'd be nailed edgeways up and down, between the rafters and flush with the top of the rafters. If the rafters were 6 feet apart you could get by with 2/6's for the edgeways laths and still be plenty strong.

I'd not sure I am describing this right but I know done right it'll be as strong or stronger than stick framing and should be easier. Especially for that size of a building.

A small air compressor and a good nail gun is a gonna be a must.

Anyways, just what I was a thinking.

[Kirk_Allen]

Thanks for all the great input.  It really helps. 

Furby: I want to keep my options open on the second floor but what I envision is simply partitioning one end for my shop that will have a second floor for office etc.   

If I can get away with 2x6 material that will save me a bunch.  I think buidling it as CK described would save me even more in lumber and time.  Got to hit the books.  !  I have to have the drain and septic stuff done prior to planting, as it looks like the drain will have to cross the field to the closest water way in the middle of our field. 

[Furby]

Yep, a pole building will save a ton in $$$ in concrete alone! You can use the pier system then.
Biggest trouble is hanging the insulation in the walls. But if ya saving lots of cash on the concrete, might want to just have the spray foam installed to make it easy.
Kinda hard to add a second floor later with out useing supports on the first floor. Not saying it can't be done, but check into that part real good before you start building.

[Jim_Rogers]

I recently saw a 38' wide x 114' long barn being build with what they called a "short pole" system.
What they did is dug a hole and put in a footing. They created these footings by taking some old 55 gallon plastic barrels and cutting them into rings about 12" tall. Then they poured concrete into these plastic rings right on site on top of the ground. After they had dried the peeled off the plastic ring and lowered the concrete pad into the hole so that the bottom of the pad is 4' down from finish grade. Each ring was lined up so that a post would stand over it a the correct spacing of the barn. I'm not sure if it was 8', 10' or 12' on center but I can go back and look again.
Then they cut pressured treated 6x6 timbers about 3 1/2' or 4' long and put them on top of the concrete pad. And back filled the hole. These short poles were held in place buy pressured treated skirt boards.
Then regular lumber 6x6 and bigger poles were placed on the top of these buried "short poles". With two 2x6 pressure treated 4' long pieces of lumber sister onto the two pieces, overlapping half on the under ground short pole and half above ground on the regular wood pole.
This way 60 years from now or sooner when these "short poles" rot out you just jack up the barn and replace the 3 1/2' piece that's in the ground, not the entire post.
Looked like a neat system to me.

Other than that it was a standard pole barn design.

Jim Rogers

[Furby]

That might be a cheaper way of doing it.
I was just thinking pour the footings with those cardboard tubes, lay a piece of PT on top, and use some nice spruce 6x6 or 8x8 or what ever.

[Kirk_Allen]

lay a piece of PT on top

What is PT?

[tnlogger]

pressured treated

[Curlywoods]

Ok Let me tell you "what time it is"  :D

PT = Pressure Treated 

[Buzz-sawyer]

Hey Jim
Heres my version of the short pole..
drilled on center with brace and bit, 1 inch dowel inserted for alignment, then soft maple on top hedge on bottom.

[Kirk_Allen]

MIke, Feel free to come UP town and tell me what time its but dont make me come DOWN TOWN and tell you what time it is :D :D

[Kirk_Allen]

Well I think I am leaning towards Piers on the paremeter and maybe some across the main floor area.  Once the Piers are set I would put forms around the paremeter and basically encase the piers with the floor.  The piers in the center would only be for support and would be below grade.

I think when I am ready to pour the main section I will HAVE to hire some folks as I simply dont have the equipment or experience to level a job this big.

How deep should the piers be and what diameter?

Thanks for all the input guys.  Its greatly appreciated.

[etat]

The easiest way I heard about to get them piers dug is to bribe somebody what works fer the light department what that digs them holes to put light poles in the ground.  Have em marked out so's all they gotta do is drive from place to place an shoot ya some holes in the ground. How deep you dig em would depend mostly on the ground you're putting the building on.  I'm 'guessing' three or four feet deep, maybe less  would be deep enough.

[etat]

The way I hooked the steel to the concrete floor in my shop. 

I didn't set any bolts in the concrete when I was pouring the slab.  I welded a steel plate on the bottom of each piece of 4/4 steel with enough sticking out on each side to have a hole cut in it.  After I had the steel stood up and braced off I drilled some 5/8  inch holes into the concrete with a rotary hammer drill and set some anchor bolts, the kind that mushrooms as you drive em in and bolted the steel to that.  I bought a couple of boxes of 5/8 inch anchor bolts off of ebay cause they're pretty dang high if you have to buy em and pay full price.  I think if I would have been using wood instead of steel I'd a cut some angle iron clips or get some flat steel and cut and bend and drill holes in and set a clip on each side of each post  with a anchor bolt in each one into the concrete, and a lag bolt or two through the clip and into the post.  That way I wouldn't have to worry about setting all them bolts exact into the concrete as I was pouring it, and could set each post exactly where I wanted it.  If you don't want your actual post touching the concrete buy a few 1/ or 2/ pressure treated boards and cut em the same size as your post and fasten to the bottom of em. This should help keep the very bottom of your post from rotting because of being against the concrete and be easy to do.   

[Kirk_Allen]

I'm going to have to check with Rural King and see what the biggest Auger they have is.  Dads got a 10" auguer for the 3-point I can use but 10" is not quite big enough.  Regardless, I could predrill the worst of it and then make them bigger by hand if I have to. 

Lots to do and no time to do it.  Stinking weather is killing me.  35 mph winds this morning and 27 degrees.  Makes for a pretty useless day of work since Im still cutting outside :(  17 degrees with wind chill.  What happen to the 70 degrees we had two days ago? 

[Jim_Rogers]

Kirk:
This thread is now four pages long.
You should try, if you can, as you are waiting for it to warm up, to put your ideas or designs down on paper.
Try and get the whole thing designed before you lift a shovel.
That way you've got the entire thing figured out and all the problems solved.
What type of walls?
What type of footings?
What type of roof?
What type of floor?
Where the doors are.
Where the windows are.
Where the second floor in the shop will be.
Where the electric panel box will be.
Where the water line will be.
Where the septic will be.
Every detail should be written down and figured out.
No sense in cutting post or poles if you're going to build it out of 2x6.
And no sense in cutting 2x6 if you're going to build it out of poles or posts.
Think it through first.
Good luck with your project.
Jim Rogers

[Kirk_Allen]

May scale down slightly depending on the estimate for the slab.  Wanted 100x60 but truss expense goes up considerably with anything over 40'

This is a diagram of the paremeter and foundation.  104 x 40.  18" peirs 30" deep and 10" above grade.  Center Peirs are the same as additional support for the slab and will be 4 inches above grade. 



What would be recommended for the paremeter posts,  6x6 or 8x8 ?
What is best for the horizontal ties for the posts, 2x4 or 2x6?

I think the top can be tied together with a 6x6 or 8x8 beam with corner brases for additional support for the truss.  I would use the same size as the posts.

That covers the footings or foundation issue.
The Roof is going to be metal on a prefab truss, unless I decide to build those myself, which I know I can but rather not.

I have the doors sketched out and will program them into the computer this week if possible.  Same with the windows.

The second floor in the shop will come much later and be built within the shop. Electric panel location is done.  Waiting on the water district to tell me the cost of tapping into county water.  Depending on that cost I may just go with a gutter collection into a cistern system. Working on the drain system as well as the heating system, which is going to be the in-floor radiant heat.

Trying to find the aproving Septic person in the county.  No return calls as of yet. 

I have been drawing ideas for months and am trying to get as many ideas as I finalize the plans.  The reason for the urgency on the basic structure design is I need to cut this Spruce!  Not only is it going to be used for the building but its sitting where part of the building is going to go.  Now that I have decided on the basic structure I just need suggestions on the horizontal ties to the posts.  2x4 or 2x6?  I was thinking of a horizontal tie every 24". 

[Buzz-sawyer]

Are the center post for a second story? They would seem to get in the way, 40 foot could easily be free spantrussed.

[Jim_Rogers]

Kirk, that's great.
In order to determine the size of the perimeter posts the roof design and support needs to be figured out.
You said you're going with a truss system?
What has the truss manufacturer suggested for center supports?
What is the roof pitch?
Around here most pole barns are 6x6 with 2x6 nailers for the siding (depending on the siding) 2' on center.
At the top of the wall posts they bolt on a 2x12 on each side of the posts and some even put a 2x10 flat over the top of these for supporting the truss roof system.
One local builder cuts into the inside face of the top of the post to set the inner 2x12 on a shelf for direct support, so that they are not relying on the bolt for support.
Also, some builders run the posts up next to the truss to help to hold them vertical.
I believe I have posted some pictures of this before but I'm not sure what thread they are in.
If you are going to bore holes for the footings one company puts in paper tubes and back fills these tubes with crushed stone so that the water flows threw the stone and does not sit next to the wood post.

Here is one picture of the tube:


Here is a picture of the pole cut for a truss to set on top of it:


There are some drawings and more photos in my album I just created called Pole barn.
Jim Rogers

[Kirk_Allen]

Center Peirs are the same as additional support for the slab and will be 4 inches above grade. 

Center Piers are for additional support for hte slab and will be the same dimensions as the paremeter piers except they will not be flush with the slab.  The will be around 4" above grade.

Now maybe Im using the term "grade" incorrectly.  What I am calling grade is the surface of the land around the building.  I want my slab to be about 6-10 inches above that.  The support piers will be support for the slab and there will be no posts on them. 

OPEN SPAN!  Want all the room I can get!

Got a quote on the cement.  6 bag - 4000 psi with fiberglass $80.00 a yard.   Much less than I thought it was going to be 8)  Now I have to get a quote from a finisher. 

[Kirk_Allen]

Jim, Center supports for what?  Do you mean for a truss between the posts?  The options they gave me for a 4/12 roof was 4', 6, 8,' centers for the truss.  If I recall correctly the truss for an 8' center is made from 2x8 material.  I would then tie them together with 2x8 perlins? Not sure if thats the right word for them.  If I go with more trusses, say on 4' centers or 6' they are 2x6.

Still running some prices on the trusses trying to figure out proper spacing.  I prefer more trusses. Not real comfortable with an 8' span.  Havenet had one of those big heavy wet snows in a while but like the added beef if you know what I mean.  

[Jim_Rogers]

Kirk:
Ok, Your floor plan shows center spots on the floor for center piers?
What are these center piers for if not some posts to help support the roof system?
Am I missing something?
Jim Rogers

[DouginUtah]

Kirk,

The center piers are totally unnecessary.

-Doug

[Kirk_Allen]

The center Piers are strictly for additional support of the main slab.  Some folks suggested them for more slab support.  They are not for posts of any type.

Doug, safe to say 4000psi mix is sufficient with fiberglass and rebar.  I dont mind digging LESS holes for piers ;D

[DouginUtah]

Kirk,

What loading are you going to be putting on this floor? How thick of a pour? Is this on swamp land?  :D

The reason I ask is that I don't think rebar will be necessary if you do it right. The 6x6 wire mesh will probably be adequate considering a 4000# mix.

There are so many opinions and considerations that we could start a whole new separate forum--Kirk's Building Forum! 

-Doug

[Kirk_Allen]

And at this rate Doug I could be the moderator since yualls teachin me so much ;D

I think the biggest load might be a backhoe, tractor and other farm equipment.  I was planning on a 4" pour.  No, it is not swamp land.  Where the shop will be has been farm land. We simply stopped farming this small plot so I could have a place to mill.  Since the farm house had been rented my dad had the farmer plant right up to the back door ;D 

Cant do that anymore.  I need my space ;D

Seriously though, I think a Construction forum may be a good Idea.  I know we have the Timberframe and Log Construction but maybe we need a simple construction site too.     

[Kirk_Allen]

Got to love living in the Country  8) 8)

Finally spoke with the Water district about water for the shop.

"Your water line comes in the front of the house so can you just tap into it there!"  "We put one of them shutoff valves out front so yuz could shut it off when ever you want.  Just shut if off when your ready to tap into it and do what ever you want!"  "I thinks Lowes has dem splitters you can put in the line so you can run water pretty much to any place you want.  My husband put water into three different barns.  Didnt cost us but 100 bucks in PVC"

Spoke with the Power company:
3 Phase to the shop - $300 in material and $100 labor if I do the trench work getting the line from the pole to the shop 8) 8) 8)

Found Ready Mix company that has fiberglass mix, 4000 psi mix for $72 yard 8) 8)

Septic system:
"I suppose you could just run a field tile since your out their in the middle of nowhere.  Aint gonna hurt nutin out their".

Now that one I have to get some face to face clarification on because I know there are Federal lows on septic systems.  Not sure if this County guy really knows much at all about it but he is in charge of it. 

Didnt get a lot cut today but did make headway on the plans. 

[Furby]

Nope, no center piers are necessary unless you are going to have posts supporting something.

What you do is remove the top soil, and then back fill with proper fill, and compact if useing sand or gravel. You can also use pea gravel which you don't need to compact. NO support for the slab is required unless it is indeed swampland or the like.

If you are going to be running heavy equipent on the finished slab, you need to pour a heavier slab. Wearhouses and such use a 10-12" slab min.
Most basement floors and residential garage floors are 4", unless upgraded to 6", and a lot of people do it.
For driving a truck or small tractor on, I would think 6" would be fine. Now if you get things designed ahead of time, you can have the office area poured at 4" and the rest thicker if you want.

My garage/pole building has a 2x6 or 2x8 PT rim, with regular 2x4 every 2' o.c., and a 2x10 or 12 each side at the top. I have a 32' clear span on the trusses. I would use a double 2x12 at the top like Jim said.

Jim, Someone posted a while back about useing a given size post, for a given height, but I'm not sure where that post is. Would a 6x6 be enough for a 16' height?

Kirk, If you wanted a wider building, you can have custom trusses made that come in two or more parts. Say you want 60' wide and can live with a divider at the 40' mark. You then order an offset truss at those specs. You'll get a matched pair of trusses, one with a 40' span and one with a 20', but they will fit together so as your peak will be centered at the 30' mark. Just something to think about if you wanted to have the office along one side of the building. You could then build a wall to carry the truss load and second floor at th 20' foot mark, and have the remaining 40' for shop.

[DouginUtah]

Spoke with the Power company:
3 Phase to the shop - $300 in material and $100 labor if I do the trench work getting the line from the pole to the shop

Quick, place your order now before they change their minds! I have some pictures of a 3-phase 200 amp panelboard and meter base in my 32' x 54' shop. But that's getting ahead of where we are. (When gas is $3.50 a gallon next year you will be thinking electric woodmizer!)

BTW, my floor was poured at a full 4" and you have to search hard to find a crack. It's the prep that's important.

Excellent price for concrete.  8)

-Doug

[Furby]

Kirk,
Did I understand you to say that you have "city" water, out in the middle of no where ???
I live IN the city, and don't have "city" water.  :-\

[etat]

I live IN the city, and don't have "city" water.

:D :D :D

Furby, it's probably cause you ain't holding yer mouth right.   I do like that trade you was talking about earlier though.  Onct you talk Kirk into giving me his sawmill so's he can upgrade to a nicer, bigger, better one I'll be glad to come up to Michigan and do yer roofing fer ya! ;D

Not many wells dug around here anymore cause most all the communities have water lines coming off of public wells these days.  That said the water still tastes better out of them deep wells that's got the pump on the end of the pipe way down in the bottom of em and ain't had chlorine and chemicals added to it.  My dad still uses his for drinking water even though he's on the water line too. There used to be one on this place but one time the pump went out and my grandpa was going to try to pull the pipe with his old ford tractor and replace the pump himself and he let a clamp slip and lost pipe, pump and all at the bottom of the well.  I wasn't in on that deal as I lived in Tennessee at the time but I have helped pull them with a wrecker a few times and using the right kind of clamps. After that Papa just hooked to the water line out by he road. I did the same thing when I moved here. Lots of times in the summertime though I'll stop by my dad's and fill up my ice cooler out of water out of his well. 

[Furby]

 :D :D :D :D :D
Just thinking of ways to help ya all out! ;)
Hey Kirk, what ya say ??? I got some roofing for CK to do, make him a deal will ya? ;D

My well is a 5" with the pump in it. My water tastes like S***! So much rust and sulfur. I have a pre filter and a water softner and it's still not right.

How long ago did that pump get dropped? How long of a section was on it?
It's possible to add a new pump over the old one if the one dropped wasn't that long and the water level is high enough.
Otherwise it's not that hard to fish one out from what I've read.
How big is the well?

[Kirk_Allen]

You got it Furby.  County water line runs right in front of the house.  $27 a month ;D  We still have well water but the cost of Electricity is so high that its cheaper to just use the county water instead of pumping it out of the well. 

CK, Cant give up the mill but If remember right, I said I would swap some fine lumber ;D But wait a minute.  Im the one that needs a new roof on the barn.  You mean to tell me that Furby done got you talked into coming up there first?

[Furby]

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Yep, he'll pick up the mill on the way up and help me with my logs while his crew takes care of the roofs. ;)

[Kirk_Allen]

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
As long as he drops the mill off back at my place on the way back you got a deal!
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Jim_Rogers]

I didn't see that thread about size of poles up to a certain height and then bigger if taller. But that would make sense.
I couldn't do a post analysis unless I get all the facts.
But when I did the one for a 40' x 50' pole barn up here 6x6 full size was ok for 16' ceiling. If he's doing a 40' wide x 104 long and 16' ceiling on top of piers he should be ok. But that's just a guess without facts and numbers.
Jim Rogers

[Kirk_Allen]

Had a close look at my Dads Mortan building and it is built with 6x6-16 footers.  It is a 50x100 Open span truss. Trusses are made from 2x8 on 8 foot centers. 

[Furby]

Cool!
Ya got something to work from now.

[mometal77]

I am just adding to this post.  No one mentioned six or eight sack mix per cubic yard.  I also saw to prevent cracks how they do things back east is use this T shaped piece of plastic they section it off in the concrete pull off the top T that unclips leaving a flat piece of plastic in the concrete about half an inch in.  I checked out the local hardware store that has 1.2 million products and they never heard of such a thing.  I guess here they just cut up concrete backer board into strips and put them in the slap so cracks dont spread.
http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/howmuch/calculator.htm

bob