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Author Topic: detroit diesel flapping sound no power  (Read 1729 times)

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Offline polemidis

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detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« on: January 30, 2020, 01:08:37 PM »
Hello guys, another post about a Detroit Diesel 353 problem :( :( 

In the last few days on middle to high rpm it make a "flapping" sound, if that word makes sense but went away on higher rpm so I didnt pay attention. Today, when this happens it completely loose power. It was struggle idling and turned off a few times, but after a while it started fine. But again after a while the same symptom. If I press the throttle, it does not rev up, or it revs up very very slowly.
Any ideas what that issue may be?

argg, its so annoying loosing perfect days like today :(
I lost yesterday too because one of the lever cables for the winch broke, and noone has this in stock, unless I make a custom order for $170! For a cable! Anyway, I fixed it with a patch. Lets see how it will last..
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Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 01:13:56 PM »
When you say "flapping" is it exhaust or a mechanical sound coming from the engine ? Sputters and runs or struggles to stay running ? Straight 353 or a 353T ? 

Offline OntarioAl

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 02:14:45 PM »
Check your emergency shut off its spring loaded to close off air but the spring maybe broken
Al
Al Raman

Offline polemidis

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2020, 04:08:35 PM »
its not mechanical. I mean its not metal sound. It reminds me when you close the choke on a 4-stroke warm up gas engine.
If that helps I have a feeling that this is happening when it idles long time (but I am not sure yet)  So, it happend earlier today while I was falling some trees. I manage to pull them out to the landing, but when I unload them It didnt have power to go back in the forest. So today after it shut off on its own, I re-started it after a couple hours, and everything was fine.

BargeMonkey Will it help if I take a video when this happens again? Its astraight 3-53 I believe. On a Franklin 132

OntarioAI the emergency shut off looks fine. What are you thinking?
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Offline OntarioAl

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2020, 05:47:57 PM »
It behaves like something is restricting the air flow what color is the smoke when the engine bogs black is a sign of restricted air flow
If that is the case you have to check from the blower housing back to and including your air filter. 
If its clear ( if it is starving for fuel it will speed up before shutting down and you say it just looses power] when it bogs its a fuel problem (filters maybe) the flapping noise could be coming from under the valve cover home of the rack, injectors etc.
I would not continue to run it until you have found the source of the noise and done the necessary repairs .
Just a few thoughts
Al 
Al Raman

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2020, 06:46:51 PM »
 I would start with fuel first, the cheapest fix. By the filters is usually a couple fittings, you can have something restricting it, but it comes and goes, why its hunting. I had this issue with my 230/353n, I had a piece of junk in a 90, it would come and go.
Mechanical "flapping" can get expensive. Like Al said, what's the smoke look like ? Hows your air filter ? Alot of oil leaking down from the blower? Have you ever popped the valve cover and just done a dirty top deck inspection ? Have someone sitting in the seat with the fuel kill pulled out, spin it over and just feel / look to see that the bridges aren't loose, nothing floating around. Dont pull on the jumpers, but you should check them for leaks periodically. Pretty simple neat engine but without hearing / seeing it could be a couple things. It doesnt sound like you've got an injector headed out, 353 usually dont like to run with 1 half dead cylinder. I'm going with a fuel issue from the pump back. 

Offline Maine logger88

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2020, 07:22:45 PM »
What those guys said. Also take the fuel line off the pump and blow back into the tank if I let one of my skidders get low on fuel it will suck up some crap it must have floating around in the tank and clog up the pump. Usually I can just blow with my mouth and it will clear it sometimes it takes a compressor with a rubber tip blow gun. If you hear air gurgling in the tank then the line is clear. 
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Offline polemidis

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2020, 07:51:16 PM »
I would say that the smoke has no color. If there is some color is white, but thats only for a second, then it gets clear.
The air filter is actually very clear. I just blow on it yesterday with air pressure. If I worried for something is that
it is too open flow and small particles can go through. Its like the one in the picture below.
I will replace the air filters tomorrow,empty the tank and check the fuel line. See what happens.

AI, I have not open anything, not the valve cover, not the injectors (I dont even know what they look like ::), 2 months ago I didnt even know there exist a 2-stroke diesel engine!). And the main reason is that 2 persons that hear it running said that it sounds great, no smoke at all unless when I start it. I was planning to do a thorough inspect after the winter, during the mud season).
If thats a fuel delivery issue could something go wrong with the fuel pump too that I could check?

Thank you for your comments everyone! I will post back tomorrow with a video.

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Offline Maine logger88

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2020, 08:46:17 PM »
The fuel supply pump could be weak but I would check the simple things first they are usually the problem. 
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Offline WWright

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2020, 06:07:35 AM »
  Yea what these guys are saying especially supply fuel line and crud in bottom of tank. Good luck

Offline snowstorm

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2020, 06:33:58 AM »
go to napa and get a oil pressure gauge plumb that in to the secondary fuel filter. should be a port that isnt being used. the filter after the pump. wot you should have 65 psi of fuel pressure 10 or so at idle. if you dont have 65 then the filters are plugged, a line is,a air leak? its a gear transfer pump they dont usually bother much   

Offline Logger RK

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2020, 07:51:06 AM »
I had a Hydro Ax with similar issues. Finally took the fuel suction tube off the tank & found a small stick jammed up in where the connection was. That's apparently why it was random,& when shut off it must've went back in the tank & would run fine when started back up. And usually Monday's it seemed it would get sucked back up again. The previous owner wasn't  to much on keeping a cap on the fuel tank all the time. A Buddy of mine had a backhoe that he had new pumps put on & still had random loss of Hyd power. Turned out he found a 5 gallon jug top that would get sucked in the suction line occasionally. 

Offline polemidis

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2020, 09:52:06 AM »
I just came back from Napa with a new filter. Apparently, that problem was on me and my negligence. When I bought the skidder a few months ago, I replaced the 2nd fuel filter but not the 1st one because it was a little messier one to replace. Even though exactly that reason should make me replace it, as the previous owners may were doing the same thing.

It turns out the filter was full of crap, and I also have lots of ice crystals, plus 1in of muddy  solid on the bottom of the fuel filter container.  I will not look any further I bet that was the issue. I am waiting the ice to melt and hopefully will go back to work.

I guess I should be draining the fuel filter once in a while... Thats the bottom screw on the filter container for right? I also just found out that its good to keep the tank always full so water from the air does not condense in the tank!!


Here is a quick pic of ice  at the bottom of the container. 

 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2020, 10:31:43 AM »
If your issue persists start replacing any rubber fuel lines on the suction side.  They can delaminate internally and pinch shut.  Its almost impossible to find this because there is no leak or deformity to pinpoint.  Its hidden on the inside. 
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Offline polemidis

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2020, 03:49:15 PM »
Ok, I spent the day in the woods. Everything was fine until my last trip on my way back. It did the same thing, that weird sound, loss of power and struggling to idle, but it went away after 5-10 secs. So I definitely think that is was a fuel problem. So i bled the 2nd filter just in case it had too much water in and will will see. My fuel lines are cracked and tired so maybe they are causing an issue when they get warm after so many hours? Anyway its a cheap precaution I will replace them just in case. 
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Offline krusty

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2020, 05:01:04 PM »
you can find the 53 series manuals free online in pdf. you need to do a fuel volume test. post a video of it under duress so we can get an idea of what is happening. I am thinking you are sucking air or your fuel pump is toast. the fuel pump test will help you narrow it down. the 53 is easy to bleed fuel out after changing filters so if it ran good for a while after, then it is bled.

take the output line from the head and put it in a big glass jar and see how much volume you get in 60 seconds. make sure the hose is under the fuel so you can see if there is any air in the line as well showing as bubbles.

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2020, 08:45:16 PM »
A day in the shop, some fuel hose, convert it to 3118/3120 napa spin on's, even a reman pump which is pretty easy. Doesnt take alot to keep those engines happy. It was 4x the volume on a small Detroit pump ? Used / return ? I know it was quite a bit, by proxy cooled the head and the body. Did the 53/71/92 basic program also when doing the MTU 4 stroke in Ft Lauderdale but that was a LONG time ago now. 🤣  None of you guys would happen to know the exhaust valve settings for a 251-351 detroit would you ? I said 51... little odd but looks pretty close to the same. 
I'm a 2 stroke fan so I actually enjoy posts like this, work in Detroit purgatory. Your injectors look basically like that only a touch small, unit injector.

 


 That's out of a 645 Emd but the same rules apply. It's something to see a 3x 20Cyl 710-EMD line haul boat bringing 42+ barges southbound on the Mississippi river making a TRUE 15,000 Hp, blowing a 4-5ft rooster tail out the back of the boat 🤣 Sit back and do some reading, the 2 stroke diesel has really gotten the USA where it is now, from WW2, locomotives, maritime world, land equipment and trucks, pretty neat to read up on. They still had one of the prototype stainless blocks in Lagrange at the school when I went to EMD, neat stuff. 
 These guys with their 6NZ's, 12 valve 5.9s, dirtmax engines 🤣 if you cant drop a 5gal pail down the hole it's not real Hp.... 🤣


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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2020, 09:14:36 PM »
You need to drain the crap out of your fuel tank.
Ok, I spent the day in the woods. Everything was fine until my last trip on my way back. It did the same thing, that weird sound, loss of power and struggling to idle, but it went away after 5-10 secs. So I definitely think that is was a fuel problem. So i bled the 2nd filter just in case it had too much water in and will will see. My fuel lines are cracked and tired so maybe they are causing an issue when they get warm after so many hours? Anyway its a cheap precaution I will replace them just in case.


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Offline C5C Tree Farmer

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2020, 10:04:30 PM »
It sounds like you've got water sloshing in the bottom of your fuel tank. Detroits heat the fuel and any water that started as ice in the morning will be liquid by the afternoon. Once the paper elements are exposed to water they absorb some and no longer flow fuel as well. Remove the tank drain and see what you find.

Offline polemidis

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Re: detroit diesel flapping sound no power
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2020, 03:25:35 AM »
Here is a quick video after I replaced the primary filter in the morning. It barely started to make that sound I am talking about at 0:28sec but its barely noticeable. I tried to record the sound when it happen again after 4 hours of operation, in the afternoon, but as I said it went away after a few secs. 

Anyways you got it right, it should be ice and/or crap in the fuel supply, with the tank the most likely suspect. The next afternoons the temp will go above freezing, I will drain the bottom of the tank. I also poured some fuel additive. Napa guy said there are a lot of people that are using it. I was skeptical but I end up using it. 

It already sounds normal (I think at least!). All I need is two more months and then I will put it in the garage for a full service. I downloaded the manuals. I love how simple and "low" tech this engine is. It sounds like fun to work with! 

Btw, the water temp stopped working, I am not flooring the throttle on a cool engine!!!!
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