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Advise on Wood Mizer LT70 with full line for high production milling

Started by JamieK, February 05, 2020, 11:46:09 AM

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stavebuyer

Quote from: moodnacreek on February 09, 2020, 09:03:16 AM
Maybe I should not have brought that up about L.L. But the fact is, over the years, I have seen some very honest and ambitious men lose their wives trying to keep their business.
That is a very valid point moodnacreek, and it's not just wives.  Time for family, friends, and hobbies will be impacted. It makes a world of difference if your family is involved or at least very supportive. A production sawmill needs to run as close to 40 hours as you can get. The overhead time to keep it close to 40 hours is insane.
 

longtime lurker

I don't mind discussing this stuff, and it IS relevant. You go into any business and unless you're really lucky there's going to be times when it impacts your family, your friends , your life away from work. And theres some interesting points raised here and yanno.... I've learnt most things the hard way.

It's real easy to say that one customer shouldnt be more than 20% of your business. And know what - it's good sense, its prudent etc. But what happens when one customer grows beyond that 20% mark? Do you ditch the customer or grow with him? And how do you do that growing.... do you just walk out and buy more line or run what you have longer each day in order to accommodate that growth until you can afford to?
I mean the answer is you work a bit longer each day right, and you save, and you position yourself to upgrade. Yanno if I could have walked out and brought a new line any time in the last 5 years I would have.... but new lines take serious dollars, and bankers like to see mortgage equity and cashflow, and mortgage equity and cashflow come from running what you have harder and longer.
I've got one customer - and yeah I know the risks - who averages at about $250k in sales a year out of my $400k turnover. He actually went down a couple years back.... restructured, came back in, and we took off right where we left off and kept growing together. Yanno he looked after me - I wasn't out of pocket moren a couple grand when he went into bankruptcy - but you punch that kind of hole into your cashflow and it Hurts.
I need a quarter million dollars more sawline to turn that guy into 20% of my business and thats my current goal over the next year or so. I've been working on back of the mill upgrades for the last couple years to handle a new front of the mill for just that reason. All those upgrades come with a price tag and you pay that by running what you got.

And its easy to say it shouldn't be moren 40 hours a week. Yeah right.... I know a lot of sawmillers and big sawmillers at that.... I can pick up the phone and have a how ya going with some of the biggest processors in the country: I've managed mills for them. Those guys don't work 40 hour weeks, why should I expect to? I'm from a farming and ranching community..... not too many farmers get to pull the plug at 5pm friday for the weekend either.
Be that as it may mostly while I was married I kept it reasonable.... 7am starts and home by 6pm, and one day at home a week. Except when I couldnt because.... we get surges where we're busy and do double shifts at times. And sometimes we run split shifts around the heat. And sometimes the log truck driver gets sick and you crawl up into a truck at 4pm and go do a 6 hour run to keep her fed for another day. You do what you got to sometimes... it sucks but if you don't like it get a job with AT&T or the government. I don't know too many self employed people in any industry who won't tell you that.

And yeah.... it places strain on families - the financial ups and downs, the long hours, the cancelled holidays and missed school plays. And those aren't little things, they just aren't. And that impact needs to be considered into things. In my case.... well I was a single parent to two little girls before I got remarried to my best friend. And I miss that friend - on the list of tough gigs I've pulled going through a divorce and not having your best friend to support you is way up at the top of the list. But if she wanted to walk back through the door tomorrow I'd gladly take my friend back but not my wife. My littlest girl was 16 when she pulled the dallas or nothing stunt, and visitation/school/family... my wife was expecting me to leave my 16 year old kid with grandma and relocate around the world and any man that will do that isnt a man. Yeah you want to be a sawmiller, make sure she doesnt get upset cleaning sawdust out the washing machine filters once a week before you do.

You wanna be a production miller? Go for it. But read this, and know what it might cost ya. Because mills have to be paid for, and if you can't do it in cash then you better be willing to do it in blood, sweat, and tears. My inheritance was here son she's in foreclosure but she's all yours... and I've dragged this place out of the mud and kept a roof over not just my kids but my parents head doing it.
And even if you got the cash, you better be prepared to bleed for every danG cent that comes in the door.

As I tell people all the time - this business isnt a career, its a disease. Make sure you know what you're putting your hand up for when you say you want to startup as a production sawmiller.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Bruno of NH

Working only for one person or outlet would scare me.
I did it once for one developer and he made like I had skin in the game.i was busy and made money but when he sold out I didn't go with the new owners.
It was like starting over again.
Since then I have always made sure to have more ways then one to survive .
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

YoungStump

 Hey all it's been a while since I've been on here, I'm the guy running the mill in the first video you posted. 
 You've got some really good advice on here already, Stavebuyer helped me out when I was setting up the mill, he knows what he's talking about. 
 I might just add a few things to consider if you do decide to go for it.
 If you're planning to do the kind of production you're talking about you need a solid plan to deal with waste, especially slabs will add up fast and really slow you down if you don't have a chipper or hog inline or some other plan to get rid of them efficiently. I would say this was one of the biggest bottlenecks in the mill I ran. 
 These types of mill setups work very well with nice straight logs in the right size range. Logs that are crooked, knotty, bell ended, poorly trimmed, undersized, or oversized will seriously cut into your production as well as putting a lot more wear and tear on your equipment.
 Also what YellowHammer said, if I was starting over I would look at Baker very seriously I've never ran one personally but I've watched a few run and know the owners and they really like them. I feel like they a much better suited to running hard day in and day out and taking the abuse of big heavy logs slamming around than the lt70. 
 As far as working with Amish guys, some are great some aren't just like everybody else, it does seem like some communities have much better reputations than others. 
Echo Enterprises 45HD2 production series band mill, Cook's Edger, sawing mostly pallet cants, rr ties, and grade lumber.

waynorthmountie

I have read this entire Topic and want to thank all of the sawyers with tons of experience that have shared their knowledge.

Although not currently running a mill I would be wary of this deal. The person bringing you the deal is obviously a wise businessman to get to the point of running an operation that produces that many loads of wood a week from the woods. He would have run the costs for cutting it himself and found that he could not make enough money doing such an operation hence he brought it to you to take on.

9 cents a bf is about $500 a day in lost profits at 5000 bf/d, that's a lot left on the table at the end of the year. Basically every 4th day you work for free.




mjl_2007

Quote from: JamieK on February 05, 2020, 02:27:05 PM
In this setup, guy #2 is working at a steady pace and not killing himself but they say they at getting 6000 bf per day.

Wood-Mizer Super LT-70 - Full operation - Mill for sale - 6000 bd ft/day - YouTube

Does anyone have experience with the Wood-Mizer transfer table and green chain?

I'm meeting with the guy this Saturday and am going to get all the details about his operation and his expectations.
This was my mill. I'd be happy to chat with you if you have any questions about how we ran it and my experiences. Remember, you're only seeing a short video here, it really needed to be at least a 3 man operation maybe even 4. It may appear #2 is pacing himself here, but I can't even tell you how many "#2" guys I went through. Long story short, I sold this operation and moved on to other opportunities. Also, 6000 ft a day was sawing ties in optimal conditions when the help would show up and we didn't have any break downs and closer to a 9-10 hour day.

customsawyer

I have been running one of my LT70s at another mill for almost 15 years. Started with a 40 and moved up. It"s not a hole lot different than most anything else. It has good points and bad points. As to your production numbers, they are achievable but you will earn them. Keep in mind, my job down there is a little different than ties. It started out cutting grade lumber from oversized logs. With two men and a edger we could get 6-8K bf. per day. Worked our back sides off. When we started cutting the 40' crane mat timbers, production went up. First order of those big ones we had to guarantee 100 timbers a week. When you mix in the 38' timbers with the 40' timbers that comes to almost 50,000 bf. per week before you count any side lumber. You will have to work hard but most importantly you will have to work smart. Production is all about work flow. What I tell my men is that we are only getting paid when the sawdust is coming out of the chute. Everything else we are working for free. That helps them to understand we have to keep the blade in a log.
When making the deal with the man you have to be prepared to walk away at all times. If you are not, he will have you over a stump and start making the deal more in his favor. It won't take long and he is going to start to ask you to do little extras. Don't do them for free or cheap. These things will take your blade out of the log and you will be working for free. I always price these things so high that he learned real quick he is better off to let his men do it. I don't do this to be mean to him, I do this to protect myself.
Best of luck in your decision.  
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

mjl_2007

I'll add a few of my own personal opinions and thoughts with the operation I had in that video.

On paper you can make sawmill projections look pretty good if you're sawing 5 days a week, 8 hours of actual sawing production a day, everyone shows up to work, works their butt off not complaining, no breakdowns or down time and the weather cooperates so you can have a steady flow of logs. I learned quickly this is far from a realistic scenario.

If you watch that video of my operation, you will notice the amount of bouncing the sawhead is doing. This was a Super 70 Wide which has very fast hydraulics for the strength of the mill (especially the sawhead) in my opinion. I think we were usually running the hydraulics around 60% just because the force of throwing big logs around was pretty hard on the mill and even at that try to feather the controls sometimes. The rollers that ride up and down the vertical frame couldn't support the weight of the sawhead, especially when the sawhead would return back towards the conveyor. They ended up ripping off of the tube frame and we had to weld on that a few times. Wood-mizer did make it right though and "beefed" it up. I'm sure they have made improvements on this design since then.
I should add too, that green chain was capable of tipping slabs off to the left into a rack, I just couldn't do it in my shed due to room. The shed was built long before the green chain was around.

These were some of the obstacles I dealt with on the day to day operation:
 - Hired help not showing up on time or showing up at all. This was the biggest problem for me. I tried paying higher wages, they still didn't have any loyalty. A family run operation would be most ideal. Always having to train new help would slow down the operation as well.
- Breakdowns and down time. Having a lot of spare parts on hand would help, but you always have some breakdown you weren't prepared for. We had a fair amount of breakdowns considering I bought most of my equipment new other than the 24' green chain. Like Custom Sawyer said, you're not making money if there isn't sawdust coming out of the chute.
- If I were to do it all over again I probably wouldn't go with a bandsaw mill for trying to achieve production. It's a great mill if you have some type of niche market where high production isn't the only goal. Circle saw with a resaw behind seems more realistic, just my opinion though.
- Markets fluctuate - just because you have one market/outlet today doesn't mean it will be there tomorrow. I also sold kiln dried lumber and this is where I noticed it seemed like a lot of other operations are willing to undercut prices and continue under cutting until you are working for almost nothing. My opinion again, have a niche market and produce a very high quality product.

Just my .02 cents for what its worth. Good luck!


stavebuyer

I was going through the photos I had on three old phones that got "unexpectedly retired" and thought this was one worth sharing. We were backed up on railcars to get our ties shipped at the time. These are all LT70 sawn ties. 



 


WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Southside

Actually if you look at the right side of the photo you will notice that it's actually a few bundles shy of a double whack.  :D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

jb14972

Automation is king, build a 3 way power conveyor with multiple kickoffs. Only way to run with 3 guys instead of 4. 4th guy eats into your profits. Your gonna have to sort cants 7x9 and 6x8 and scabs. All of those need to be sorted with automation or you will be paying a guy to do it. Equipment operator can and should be doing multiple jobs and still move 100 logs to the mill per day but that's only if he isn't handling product by hand all day. Watch the baker video with all the kickoffs, that's what you need or close to it but it will cost some money. 

Cutting 100 logs a day is a hard day on an lt70 but that has to be your target to end up averaging 5,000' per day.

We are about to list our two lt70's and buy a circle mill to increase production. I'm looking at a hurdle. Also don't buy new, all the equipment depreciates way to fast from woodmizer. Go through your own bank and get good interest rates and go run the equipment first that your gonna buy. 

You need to account for productive hours vs working hours also. I would suggest finding some motivated individuals that wanted to work off of a production based pay. A small operation will depend on everyone there to be efficient and knowledgeable. If your hiring random people you will be kicking yourself trying to teach them to edge and stack lumber let alone maintain their equipment. 

We averaged 6,500' per day in February with one of our lt70's. Cutting mostly ties


longtime lurker

I had a look over a  secondhand Mebor 1200SP today - part of my ever expanding quest to find a new headsaw. At todays exchange rate $45k USD... seemed reasonable to me but not suited to my logs so I'll pass.

Yeahhhhhhhhh.... it'll do your 5,000 a day if you can keep logs coming in and material flowing away. 
And after lunch you can go fishing ;D 

First time I've ever seen a bandmill (rather than a band headsaw or band resaw) that I thought was a genuine producer. Not too shabby at all.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

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