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Author Topic: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents  (Read 1593 times)

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Offline Tony Wells

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Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« on: February 21, 2020, 08:26:08 PM »
New guy here. Thanks for having me. Looks like a lot of knowledge on the board.

I'm working (blindly, mostly) on a Blount tagged Hydro-Ax 670. It's the saw, not a shear. I'm unsure of the year. Or for that matter, who actually built it. Seems the Hydro-Ax has gone through a few hands over the years. I have the S/N if someone has a secret decoder ring. S/N is HA18782. I'm trying to locate some books on it. Preferably a shop manual, but I don't have an owner/operator manual either. It's an auction machine, and we got nothing with it. I'm semi retired contract guy trying to help an old friend keep his equipment going. This one had a hi/lo control lever housing that had lost enough screws to let the cable sheath slip out of its grip, and so ended up stuck in hi gear. Pretty useless for cutting, and could not shift in the cab normally. At the gearbox, the control shaft and lever pinned to it seem ok. A little sloppy from wear, but serviceable. I have all the hardware to put it back together, but I've insisted that if there are no books with these auction machines, we get them. But I'm having trouble locating this one. I'm at the northern edge of the East Texas Piney Woods, but there are some pulp operations around so we get some equipment from deeper in the pines. I need this machine running fairly soon for a land clearing job for the State. Highway expansion, right of way. Right now all we have is one feller buncher. I can't imagine having to saw all of this or push it up with a dozer.
It appears that the cast aluminum (or Zinc alloy) housing that has the pivot for the hi-lo lever is missing some fasteners and at the exit point for the cable attached to the lever there is a clamp of sorts (again missing screws) that grabs a preformed collar on the cable housing. Due to the missing fasteners, the cable housing has slipped out of place and nothing is holding it. The cable is free to move in the housing, allaying some fears of a rusted, frozen up cable. All the pieces seem to be there, just not secure in their proper positions. I rounded up all the appropriate fasteners and will put it back together. Perhaps with one improvement. The pivot hole in the lever has what I believe are Delrin (HDPE) bushings, so obviously the fastener used there would have a smooth shank above the threads that provides a bearing surface of sorts. I am substituting  a socket shoulder screw (aka stripper bolt, for the Tool and Die guys among us).It is precision ground and a good fit in those Delrin bushings. A Stover lock nut on the other side and it should last the life of the machine.  So much for the shift control housing.

On the other end of that cable there is a lever arm pinned to a shaft coming out of a gearbox. There is a fair amount of wear between the lever arm, which is welded to a round boss bored to fit the control shaft. In fact, it's quite sloppy. Major job to pull all that apart and make a new control shaft, or turn the old one true and sleeve the boss to fit it, so I intend to try and run the machine with it loose. I can shift from one position to the other (Hi and Lo) with the cab end of the cable unhooked from everything, so I believe once I have reassembled the control cable/lever housing in the cab, things should be ok. Worn a bit, but ok. If not for a hot job for this machine, perhaps I would (and probably will at some point) address the sloppy fit properly. I hate it, but it's a "get by for now" repair. Sometimes just gotta do that.

I only hope there has not been any clutch damage from running in high gear all the time. This is an auction machine, so I can't say how long it's been running like this.

If anyone is reading this, I could use some help finding a manual on it. The owner of this group of machines has instituted a (good) policy of getting books on everything we have when we work on it. Eventually, that will be a room full of manuals. I read some of the history of Hydro-Ax, and can't say for sure who even owns or builds them these days. My specimen has a Blount ID tag, but from reading, that may not mean a lot. Any suggestions would be appreciated.



Also contracted to remove about 9 feet of dirt over the first 5 acres. And that's just the tip of it, with a deadline.

TIA for any help I can get.

TCW
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 10:17:58 PM »
The gear box is a two speed cog shift gear box, made by Terrell I believe. The high speed is just for roading. All felling should be done in low. I would get it shifted into low and just leave it there. If you do get shifter operational , do not shift if  the machine is rolling or on an incline.  90w gear oil the transmission gearbox.   There is also a turtle rabbit switch, this controls the displacement of the drive motor and can "shifted on the fly" . This solonoid is located directly on the hydrostatic drive motor.  So there 4 speed ranges.  Also maintain the gear oil level in the pump drive gear box behind the engine, it has dipstick as well.  

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 10:25:49 PM »
Also, no clutches in the gear box. There is a shift fork attached the rod going into the gear box.  Sometimes your have to steer the machine to line the cog to complete the shift. 

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 10:38:15 PM »
One of the problems is that nearly all of the rocker switches which would normally be marked, as you mentioned (turtle/rabbit switch is barely where I can make out the rabbit), are illegible. That's one reason I need a manual. I can at least mark the main ones. Several gauges are missing, about 3 indicator lamps are simply hanging loose with no bezel to give any idea what they are telling me, other than the one indicating parking brake status. I only know that because the only time it is lit is when the brake is applied. Most of the instruments are non-functional. I have oil pressure, but that's it. Not even a tach.

Leaving the transmission in low has been suggested by one of the operators, and on this upcoming job there will be no transport, so no need of high range anyway. If this give me any trouble, I'll do just that. Lock it into low. I have not checked the oil. We have an equipment shop that will go over it for normal service items, filters, oil and such. I'm more just the troubleshooter. But while I have the cab knocked over, it's easy enough to check.

So it's a hydrostatic drive?

Thanks for replying, Kiko.
tc
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline Mountaynman

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2020, 07:52:52 AM »
ok here you go hydroax was sold to Blount which was sold to prentice, which CAT bought in 08 with all the lines that came along with them. However a couple years ago Weiler bought all the lines from cat not sure where that leaves the older machines.

Jason at Milton Cat in Brewer, Me was a wiz at getting older manuals and build sheets for the machines from the serial num.

Not Sure if CAT is still handling the parts for the older models but he would be a good place to start in your area Texas Timberjack was a prentice dealer

Dont believe Weiler is still building any parts or any of the older models im sure someone is there are a lot of machines out there

Good Luck
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2020, 12:33:06 PM »
Thanks, Mountaynman. So currently Weiler is building these? I'll give the Cat guys in Lufkin a call Monday. Got family in Nacogdoches I need to visit anyway if I have to go down there. I Hopefully I won't need any hard parts. I have a machine shop that I can generally repair or sometimes duplicate parts, but on this machine so far all I see is a few chaffed hoses I want to replace before sending it out. It's been sitting a while, so who knows what I'll find once it's put to work. Fortunately, the jobsite isn't too far from the shop.

I've found a couple of parts manuals for sale, but that's not what I really need at this point. I'd rather buy a op manual and a shop manual. I don't have much experience in feller bunchers. Most of the business I service is a plant where we make compost and mulch, so grinders and screeners are the main specialty pieces, with lots of wheeled loaders and excavators around. We are getting into some land clearing these days though to get more raw materials. The owner has a penchant for lots of different types of equipment though, so there is a variety to keep me busy. This Hydro-Ax will be on it's first job in a while. I'm frankly surprised that it took only a little effort to get it to run. Getting it up on the trailer in high gear was an effort though. Even the small step on our drop-neck was more than it wanted to climb, so I'm concerned about the drive unit. I hope it does ok on low. It's the only feller buncher we have, I believe. Equipment is scattered all over. We may have another I just don't know about, but if so, I'd bet it needs more than this one.
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2020, 01:35:02 PM »
Yes hydrostatic drive.

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2020, 06:38:35 PM »
These are some pictures of a Timberking TK340.  It was a transitional machine after CAT bought Blount. It was basically the same as the 70 series Hydro Ax except for the CAT engine. 3126B...no less. The hydro ax was still produced  at this time  for some markets . Cummins engine.   Also some pictures the switches , many if these are worn off as well . Shift cable.


 

 

 

 

Offline Mountaynman

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2020, 06:52:40 PM »
i wouldnt even want to guess if weiler is building the wheeled bunchers CAT had their own version like kiko said there were some hybrids for a while he might even know who is doing parts on that stuff im sure some others will chime in youve got fabtek,hydrox,blount,prentice,timberking and a bunch of CAT branded stuff all built on the same platform hanging out in the wind 

unless your cat dealer was actively involved with forestry the parts guys will look at you like youve got three heads a phone call might save some agrivation it was not easy thru that transition with multiple brands i worked for CAT up here back then sold some cat branded stuff with deere componets for a while while the timberking stuff worked thru it was a mess for about 5 years
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2020, 02:10:34 AM »
Mountaynman, you hit on a salient point there. This far north of the timber country in East Texas, our dealers don't handle many forestry machines. Just a few miles east (in fact not far from my home), there are a couple of small-time pulpers. And not too far away lie Carthage and Henderson (30-40 miles), where there is some logging activity. I've run into this before. It's less than 100 miles to the edge of where it gets more serious, so a trip isn't so bad if I have to go get parts, and the help I've gotten from some of the dealers around Lufkin and Jasper has been pretty good.

And you're right, lots of these machines seem to pass from brand to brand, with many changes and sometimes less than ideal documentation.

Thanks for the pics, Kiko. Those rockers are in better shape than mine. Some of the impressions are still there, so I may be able to fill them with a paint pen or something, but some are just worn off. Dirty gloves can put amazing wear on plastic surfaces. Those I can engrave with my air pencil and then fill I think. I won't know what all the functions are until I locate a manual, but I hope to soon.
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2020, 02:22:43 AM »
Ebay.... best place to find books, just keep looking. 

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2020, 09:37:51 AM »
I'm looking, but unsure of the model year, I feel like I'm guessing partly. I find parts manuals, but that's not really what I want. I'll buy new, used, electronic....just about anything, because I have nothing. Maybe if I get with the right parts guy, with the s/n I have I can get at least that much information.
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2020, 09:59:35 AM »
I have been working on the hydro ax in it's various versions for close to thirty years and I have never seen a service manual, but I wish you luck. The hydro ax started with Franklin axles through the E series then they used John Deere axles on the ex, Timberking, Prentice and the early Cat branded 553, 63,73 series.  The 553,63,73C is the Cat version which has all the emission controls and the engine has been relocated and the rear of the machine and turned side ways. I am working on a 563c currently and will get some pictures of that set up .  The 563c has the Cat style serial number , parts and service info are available.  Anything with a HA serial number will be difficult. I have not touched a weiler version yet, but they look just like the Cat with different paint . The bunching head has been redesigned and it looks just like the tigercat which if built well will be a plus. I have not been impressed with the SB series head. Junk.  The hydro ax you are dealing with is a component machine and will likely have to be dealt with as such. I would imagine the 670 you have has a Waratah fd-22 head, which is an excellent head, Waratah is also owned by Deere.

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2020, 10:23:16 AM »
There is an operation manual for sale on eBay currently for 470 and 670.

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2020, 05:43:27 PM »
Not any more, kiko. Thanks for the heads-up.
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline Mountaynman

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2020, 06:01:20 PM »
Get ahold of Jason up at MiltonCAT in Brewer he used to be able to pull the build sheet from the serial num and get u what u need as kiko said they were componet machine so all were a little different especially during the buyouts and name changes not sure if all that has changed since weiler bought the forestry side but if anyone would know he would and be able to get u what books are availible
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2020, 08:43:01 PM »
Just found some pictures on HEF.  That machine has side cut hydro ax head.  There should be switch to open that door to partially cut a large tree before making the final cut. I see the side cut cylinder is still on there. Most of those doors end up welded shut and the cylinder removed.  I hope you have an experienced operator for that machine. If not be sure to instruct the operator to kill the engine on the way over.  You gotta cut tree as you clamp it.

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2020, 12:56:17 AM »
I'm an HEF member. I looked but found very little on the 670. Happen to have a link to that thread? The operator is a decent hand, although I don't know just how much experience he has with this type of machine. He's good on the other equipment, but like I mentioned, we aren't really in timber country. I'm not sure where he came from. He may be familiar with it.

As far as I can tell, nothing has been modified on that head. All cylinders are functional, but unless I'm mistaken, the lower button on the RH stick should open both the jaws, but it doesn't. The left corresponding button closes them both, but to open them the rockers on top of the sticks must be used. I have not looked into the wiring yet. That's another reason I'd really like to have a full service/shop manual. I did buy that owner/op manual, but I doubt there is much tech support in it, such as schematics.
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2020, 01:11:46 AM »
I'll give Jason a call and see if he can help me with a service manual, at least. We have a decent Cat dealer here, but I doubt they would stock any parts special to this machine. Engine parts and such, probably. Other parts they would have to order in, after tracking them down. That's where Jason may be of help. I'll pay the shipping one way or the other, and without the markup of the local dealer. May as well buy from Jason. I may decide I need the parts manual I found on ebay anyway, in the end. I want to wait and see how the machine runs when we get it out on the job first though. It may not be as bad as I think. I know I'm going to replace a couple of bad hoses, but I have a local outfit that does a good job at good prices on making hoses for me. Usually while I wait, unless I am rehosing an entire machine. Then they get a pile of hoses to duplicate.

Thanks for all the help, guys!
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2020, 09:30:10 AM »
Does that machine have two sets of foot pedals?


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