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Author Topic: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents  (Read 1643 times)

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Offline Tony Wells

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Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« on: February 21, 2020, 08:26:08 PM »
New guy here. Thanks for having me. Looks like a lot of knowledge on the board.

I'm working (blindly, mostly) on a Blount tagged Hydro-Ax 670. It's the saw, not a shear. I'm unsure of the year. Or for that matter, who actually built it. Seems the Hydro-Ax has gone through a few hands over the years. I have the S/N if someone has a secret decoder ring. S/N is HA18782. I'm trying to locate some books on it. Preferably a shop manual, but I don't have an owner/operator manual either. It's an auction machine, and we got nothing with it. I'm semi retired contract guy trying to help an old friend keep his equipment going. This one had a hi/lo control lever housing that had lost enough screws to let the cable sheath slip out of its grip, and so ended up stuck in hi gear. Pretty useless for cutting, and could not shift in the cab normally. At the gearbox, the control shaft and lever pinned to it seem ok. A little sloppy from wear, but serviceable. I have all the hardware to put it back together, but I've insisted that if there are no books with these auction machines, we get them. But I'm having trouble locating this one. I'm at the northern edge of the East Texas Piney Woods, but there are some pulp operations around so we get some equipment from deeper in the pines. I need this machine running fairly soon for a land clearing job for the State. Highway expansion, right of way. Right now all we have is one feller buncher. I can't imagine having to saw all of this or push it up with a dozer.
It appears that the cast aluminum (or Zinc alloy) housing that has the pivot for the hi-lo lever is missing some fasteners and at the exit point for the cable attached to the lever there is a clamp of sorts (again missing screws) that grabs a preformed collar on the cable housing. Due to the missing fasteners, the cable housing has slipped out of place and nothing is holding it. The cable is free to move in the housing, allaying some fears of a rusted, frozen up cable. All the pieces seem to be there, just not secure in their proper positions. I rounded up all the appropriate fasteners and will put it back together. Perhaps with one improvement. The pivot hole in the lever has what I believe are Delrin (HDPE) bushings, so obviously the fastener used there would have a smooth shank above the threads that provides a bearing surface of sorts. I am substituting  a socket shoulder screw (aka stripper bolt, for the Tool and Die guys among us).It is precision ground and a good fit in those Delrin bushings. A Stover lock nut on the other side and it should last the life of the machine.  So much for the shift control housing.

On the other end of that cable there is a lever arm pinned to a shaft coming out of a gearbox. There is a fair amount of wear between the lever arm, which is welded to a round boss bored to fit the control shaft. In fact, it's quite sloppy. Major job to pull all that apart and make a new control shaft, or turn the old one true and sleeve the boss to fit it, so I intend to try and run the machine with it loose. I can shift from one position to the other (Hi and Lo) with the cab end of the cable unhooked from everything, so I believe once I have reassembled the control cable/lever housing in the cab, things should be ok. Worn a bit, but ok. If not for a hot job for this machine, perhaps I would (and probably will at some point) address the sloppy fit properly. I hate it, but it's a "get by for now" repair. Sometimes just gotta do that.

I only hope there has not been any clutch damage from running in high gear all the time. This is an auction machine, so I can't say how long it's been running like this.

If anyone is reading this, I could use some help finding a manual on it. The owner of this group of machines has instituted a (good) policy of getting books on everything we have when we work on it. Eventually, that will be a room full of manuals. I read some of the history of Hydro-Ax, and can't say for sure who even owns or builds them these days. My specimen has a Blount ID tag, but from reading, that may not mean a lot. Any suggestions would be appreciated.



Also contracted to remove about 9 feet of dirt over the first 5 acres. And that's just the tip of it, with a deadline.

TIA for any help I can get.

TCW
I'm right 97% of the time; who cares about the other 4%?

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 10:17:58 PM »
The gear box is a two speed cog shift gear box, made by Terrell I believe. The high speed is just for roading. All felling should be done in low. I would get it shifted into low and just leave it there. If you do get shifter operational , do not shift if  the machine is rolling or on an incline.  90w gear oil the transmission gearbox.   There is also a turtle rabbit switch, this controls the displacement of the drive motor and can "shifted on the fly" . This solonoid is located directly on the hydrostatic drive motor.  So there 4 speed ranges.  Also maintain the gear oil level in the pump drive gear box behind the engine, it has dipstick as well.  

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 10:25:49 PM »
Also, no clutches in the gear box. There is a shift fork attached the rod going into the gear box.  Sometimes your have to steer the machine to line the cog to complete the shift. 

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 10:38:15 PM »
One of the problems is that nearly all of the rocker switches which would normally be marked, as you mentioned (turtle/rabbit switch is barely where I can make out the rabbit), are illegible. That's one reason I need a manual. I can at least mark the main ones. Several gauges are missing, about 3 indicator lamps are simply hanging loose with no bezel to give any idea what they are telling me, other than the one indicating parking brake status. I only know that because the only time it is lit is when the brake is applied. Most of the instruments are non-functional. I have oil pressure, but that's it. Not even a tach.

Leaving the transmission in low has been suggested by one of the operators, and on this upcoming job there will be no transport, so no need of high range anyway. If this give me any trouble, I'll do just that. Lock it into low. I have not checked the oil. We have an equipment shop that will go over it for normal service items, filters, oil and such. I'm more just the troubleshooter. But while I have the cab knocked over, it's easy enough to check.

So it's a hydrostatic drive?

Thanks for replying, Kiko.
tc
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Offline Mountaynman

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2020, 07:52:52 AM »
ok here you go hydroax was sold to Blount which was sold to prentice, which CAT bought in 08 with all the lines that came along with them. However a couple years ago Weiler bought all the lines from cat not sure where that leaves the older machines.

Jason at Milton Cat in Brewer, Me was a wiz at getting older manuals and build sheets for the machines from the serial num.

Not Sure if CAT is still handling the parts for the older models but he would be a good place to start in your area Texas Timberjack was a prentice dealer

Dont believe Weiler is still building any parts or any of the older models im sure someone is there are a lot of machines out there

Good Luck
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2020, 12:33:06 PM »
Thanks, Mountaynman. So currently Weiler is building these? I'll give the Cat guys in Lufkin a call Monday. Got family in Nacogdoches I need to visit anyway if I have to go down there. I Hopefully I won't need any hard parts. I have a machine shop that I can generally repair or sometimes duplicate parts, but on this machine so far all I see is a few chaffed hoses I want to replace before sending it out. It's been sitting a while, so who knows what I'll find once it's put to work. Fortunately, the jobsite isn't too far from the shop.

I've found a couple of parts manuals for sale, but that's not what I really need at this point. I'd rather buy a op manual and a shop manual. I don't have much experience in feller bunchers. Most of the business I service is a plant where we make compost and mulch, so grinders and screeners are the main specialty pieces, with lots of wheeled loaders and excavators around. We are getting into some land clearing these days though to get more raw materials. The owner has a penchant for lots of different types of equipment though, so there is a variety to keep me busy. This Hydro-Ax will be on it's first job in a while. I'm frankly surprised that it took only a little effort to get it to run. Getting it up on the trailer in high gear was an effort though. Even the small step on our drop-neck was more than it wanted to climb, so I'm concerned about the drive unit. I hope it does ok on low. It's the only feller buncher we have, I believe. Equipment is scattered all over. We may have another I just don't know about, but if so, I'd bet it needs more than this one.
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2020, 01:35:02 PM »
Yes hydrostatic drive.

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2020, 06:38:35 PM »
These are some pictures of a Timberking TK340.  It was a transitional machine after CAT bought Blount. It was basically the same as the 70 series Hydro Ax except for the CAT engine. 3126B...no less. The hydro ax was still produced  at this time  for some markets . Cummins engine.   Also some pictures the switches , many if these are worn off as well . Shift cable.


 

 

 

 

Offline Mountaynman

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2020, 06:52:40 PM »
i wouldnt even want to guess if weiler is building the wheeled bunchers CAT had their own version like kiko said there were some hybrids for a while he might even know who is doing parts on that stuff im sure some others will chime in youve got fabtek,hydrox,blount,prentice,timberking and a bunch of CAT branded stuff all built on the same platform hanging out in the wind 

unless your cat dealer was actively involved with forestry the parts guys will look at you like youve got three heads a phone call might save some agrivation it was not easy thru that transition with multiple brands i worked for CAT up here back then sold some cat branded stuff with deere componets for a while while the timberking stuff worked thru it was a mess for about 5 years
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2020, 02:10:34 AM »
Mountaynman, you hit on a salient point there. This far north of the timber country in East Texas, our dealers don't handle many forestry machines. Just a few miles east (in fact not far from my home), there are a couple of small-time pulpers. And not too far away lie Carthage and Henderson (30-40 miles), where there is some logging activity. I've run into this before. It's less than 100 miles to the edge of where it gets more serious, so a trip isn't so bad if I have to go get parts, and the help I've gotten from some of the dealers around Lufkin and Jasper has been pretty good.

And you're right, lots of these machines seem to pass from brand to brand, with many changes and sometimes less than ideal documentation.

Thanks for the pics, Kiko. Those rockers are in better shape than mine. Some of the impressions are still there, so I may be able to fill them with a paint pen or something, but some are just worn off. Dirty gloves can put amazing wear on plastic surfaces. Those I can engrave with my air pencil and then fill I think. I won't know what all the functions are until I locate a manual, but I hope to soon.
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Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2020, 02:22:43 AM »
Ebay.... best place to find books, just keep looking. 

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2020, 09:37:51 AM »
I'm looking, but unsure of the model year, I feel like I'm guessing partly. I find parts manuals, but that's not really what I want. I'll buy new, used, electronic....just about anything, because I have nothing. Maybe if I get with the right parts guy, with the s/n I have I can get at least that much information.
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2020, 09:59:35 AM »
I have been working on the hydro ax in it's various versions for close to thirty years and I have never seen a service manual, but I wish you luck. The hydro ax started with Franklin axles through the E series then they used John Deere axles on the ex, Timberking, Prentice and the early Cat branded 553, 63,73 series.  The 553,63,73C is the Cat version which has all the emission controls and the engine has been relocated and the rear of the machine and turned side ways. I am working on a 563c currently and will get some pictures of that set up .  The 563c has the Cat style serial number , parts and service info are available.  Anything with a HA serial number will be difficult. I have not touched a weiler version yet, but they look just like the Cat with different paint . The bunching head has been redesigned and it looks just like the tigercat which if built well will be a plus. I have not been impressed with the SB series head. Junk.  The hydro ax you are dealing with is a component machine and will likely have to be dealt with as such. I would imagine the 670 you have has a Waratah fd-22 head, which is an excellent head, Waratah is also owned by Deere.

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2020, 10:23:16 AM »
There is an operation manual for sale on eBay currently for 470 and 670.

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2020, 05:43:27 PM »
Not any more, kiko. Thanks for the heads-up.
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Offline Mountaynman

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2020, 06:01:20 PM »
Get ahold of Jason up at MiltonCAT in Brewer he used to be able to pull the build sheet from the serial num and get u what u need as kiko said they were componet machine so all were a little different especially during the buyouts and name changes not sure if all that has changed since weiler bought the forestry side but if anyone would know he would and be able to get u what books are availible
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2020, 08:43:01 PM »
Just found some pictures on HEF.  That machine has side cut hydro ax head.  There should be switch to open that door to partially cut a large tree before making the final cut. I see the side cut cylinder is still on there. Most of those doors end up welded shut and the cylinder removed.  I hope you have an experienced operator for that machine. If not be sure to instruct the operator to kill the engine on the way over.  You gotta cut tree as you clamp it.

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2020, 12:56:17 AM »
I'm an HEF member. I looked but found very little on the 670. Happen to have a link to that thread? The operator is a decent hand, although I don't know just how much experience he has with this type of machine. He's good on the other equipment, but like I mentioned, we aren't really in timber country. I'm not sure where he came from. He may be familiar with it.

As far as I can tell, nothing has been modified on that head. All cylinders are functional, but unless I'm mistaken, the lower button on the RH stick should open both the jaws, but it doesn't. The left corresponding button closes them both, but to open them the rockers on top of the sticks must be used. I have not looked into the wiring yet. That's another reason I'd really like to have a full service/shop manual. I did buy that owner/op manual, but I doubt there is much tech support in it, such as schematics.
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Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2020, 01:11:46 AM »
I'll give Jason a call and see if he can help me with a service manual, at least. We have a decent Cat dealer here, but I doubt they would stock any parts special to this machine. Engine parts and such, probably. Other parts they would have to order in, after tracking them down. That's where Jason may be of help. I'll pay the shipping one way or the other, and without the markup of the local dealer. May as well buy from Jason. I may decide I need the parts manual I found on ebay anyway, in the end. I want to wait and see how the machine runs when we get it out on the job first though. It may not be as bad as I think. I know I'm going to replace a couple of bad hoses, but I have a local outfit that does a good job at good prices on making hoses for me. Usually while I wait, unless I am rehosing an entire machine. Then they get a pile of hoses to duplicate.

Thanks for all the help, guys!
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2020, 09:30:10 AM »
Does that machine have two sets of foot pedals?

Offline timberking

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2020, 10:05:07 AM »
Suttle Equipment in DeQueen Ark might be a good source.  We run Tigercat now but had Hydro Axes in the past.

Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2020, 10:28:41 AM »
If it has two sets of pedals, the set on the left works the clamp arm( bigger arm) and the accumulator works off the buttons. Under normal operation you would only want both arms to open when dumping. There should be no function on that machine that would close both arms at the same time.  If cutting wood that is small enough to bunch in the head. The first tree would be cut with both arms open, as the tree is cut you pull it into the pocket with clamp. Then you close the accumulator arm to hold the tree then open the clamp to cut the next one. Then you open the accumulator arm and it will pull out from behind the tree just cut and close it back to hold the trees. Repeat.

 

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2020, 11:55:32 AM »
No, a single "split pedal" I would call it on the far right, and a brake pedal more in the center. I'll be on it today and get a few pics.


Edit: Fixed pic. Brought in crane to sit machine vertical.
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2020, 06:00:11 PM »
That is what I was talking about!  Get a big forky hardwood hung up where you can't throw it and that picture will be accurate.  A seasoned cutter man will go over on occasion . A customer of mine has a 643L .  JD called to tell him that she was on her side. First he heard of it. Machine sent out the mayday signal.  

Offline Firewoodjoe

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2020, 07:08:12 PM »
I didnt read all this post so if Im late or off I apologize. Ive ran two 670s both joystick controls. No steering wheel. If it has joysticks then the bunching and accumulate are on the joy sticks. The pedals are for driving. There is one button to open both arms of you get a big one starting to tip you but not close them. All arms have to be closed to open side cut. Assuming all functions work as they should. There tough machines. Cat dealer here handles all parts now. 

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2020, 08:01:38 PM »
FWJoe, no, you're on point. Right now there are some mysteries to this machine and I am approaching it with some trepidation. I appreciate all the input here. I'm a little out of my element on feller bunchers, but I'll catch on fast. It's just a shame I have a deadline on a project and this is the only one we have right now. I really need to get it going. The guys would haul it out tomorrow if I get it done. It appears that it really isn't happy in high gear either. From a standing start, it does what I call "cogging", sort of jumping from one tooth to the next in the gearbox, as though the gears are not fully meshed. I got the shifter box reworked today and although it seems all well and good, I found this: (I'll try again on the pic)

 
Naturally, although the top end of the cable mechanism is in fair shape, that won't work. I'm thinking about removing the mechanism and cable to have here at the shop, in case of a brainstorm (hope no one is injured) and I see a way to possibly fix it. I'm also going to get with some of the parts people recommended by you guys. I personally would rather fix it than rig it. I'm actually a machinist by profession, and a bit OCD. I lost part of my thumb, and I'm 90% deaf, and have a handful of bad discs, and arthritis. So, I just happened to have a long time friend who lets me work on what I want and feel like and it keeps me out of the bars and stuff. I'm oilfield, but not roughneck. I come from the instrument and motor side of directional drilling, the stuff they send down to see what they are doing. That and the motors used downhole and all the associated bits and pieces (BHA - Bottom Hole Assembly). So I'm familiar with big, heavy, powerful equipment, and I've always worked on things. Anything from watches and the little precision indicators used in machine shops all the way to rotary tables and some of the surface equipment. Some of it is killer stuff, so I try not to be stupid. Someday I may tell how I lost my thumb. It wasn't in a machine shop. (sigh)  Enough biography. I only work part time. It's all I'm able, and it ends up jobs nobody wants to do, or they are so messed up it takes lots of patience and understanding of how machines work.
I'll try a couple more pics.


 

Judging by the date on the tag, it may mean the machine is an '04 or '05. I haven't found that decoder ring yet.


 

 

We will see what tomorrow brings. More of the same, I expect :D
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2020, 08:18:50 PM »
That is the side cut door cylinder. FW Joe said that both clamp and accumulator must be closed to operate. It will lift that door to expose the saw for the first cut on large trees without having to change angles for the two cuts .  I keep adding on , but these are my second favorite machine.  

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2020, 08:49:02 PM »
kiko, that makes sense. I probably just haven't got the combination right to open that side cut door. I'll check it out tomorrow. I believe there are some decent size trees on the project so that should be useful.

You just keep adding on, you're adding to my education and I appreciate it.

timberking, DeQueen is close enough I'd drive to get parts if they had something I needed. Thanks for another source.
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2020, 10:15:47 PM »
Have you discovered that the cab can jacked over for access?

Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2020, 10:20:18 PM »
Oh yes. It would be virtually impossible to work on a lot of it if it didn't knock over.
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Offline Firewoodjoe

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2020, 05:19:48 AM »
Steering, lifting, bunching arm, accumulate arm, dump button(opens both arms), and front diff lock is all on the joy sticks. I wouldnt worry about the shift cable just get the gear box in low gear and see if it runs smooth. Fix the cable latter. Also the side cut is very handy but not needed. You can cut very large trees with the normal front face of the head. 30-40. The side cut always you to do it with out having to turn around and cut both sides of the tree. The only real issues we ever had was the wiring harness running through the center section but thats really any equipment. Just jump in it and cut some brush and smaller trees. You cant hurt the machine. Never run it around people as the teeth WILL come off. I said will not might. New bolts every set of teeth and the shoulders have to be tight. No wiggle. Check saw bearing and lots of grease in those two fitting by the side cut cylinder in your picture. Rev it wide open and have fun. They will tip way past your pucker factor. That feeling will come in time and before long youll be on three wheels through out the day.

Offline Mountaynman

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2020, 07:10:58 AM »
Unless its drasticly different down there in texas very rare anything u need will be in stock at a dealer you probably wont have to chase any parts they will just drop ship them direct to you best of luck with your project only sold a couple of those wheeled machine this is track buncher country they did make a few of those machines that had the ability to interchange with mulchers, stumpgrinders and rotary cutters might be a nice find for a contractor if yours is like that if you can track down the build sheet should tell all 
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Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2020, 08:28:21 AM »
The plan for today is to just do that: Get it into Low gear. My question is will it stay or will I need to wire it in place or put a turnbuckle on it or anything like that? The lever arm is very sloppy on the shaft coming out of the gearbox (happens to be a Sauer Danfoss). Trans is indeed a Terrell by Durst.

Around the shop I don't think there are any trees left to test with, so I may have to haul it out to the job. Owner would be thrilled if I tell him it's ready for that today. Then I'll get to play with it a bit.

You mentioned electrical. That reminds me of a major need for a schematic. The dash is almost void of information. I have oil pressure. That's all I know. The smart readout on the left side just says "no diagnostics available" or something like that. If the gearshift goes ok, I'm at least going to see if I can get the tach and temp working. The rest can wait, but I do want to keep an eye on the temp. Wide open, as you say, sounds about right.

And I'll pass along the fair warning about the teeth. I know how most of the operators treat the equipment we have with teeth. We spend a LOT of money on our hammer teeth. But much of that is not truly their fault. In the mulch yard, we take in supposedly clean cuts and brush from the public also, but every once in a while, something that won't grind gets dropped in Hogzilla or one of others. Yard super has a chunk of steel about the size of a football on his desk that looks pretty rough.
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Offline Tony Wells

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2020, 08:42:16 AM »
Mountaynman, here in Tyler, this isn't really timber country. The Piney Woods area is a little south of me. Best we do close to me is some pulp wood cutting. It only starts getting more serious about 70 miles or so south around Lufkin/Nacogdoches. So I'm sure you're right. I can most likely get engine parts, and maybe some driveline stuff, but anything particular to cutting and handling will have to be brought in for me, or I'll have to do a little driving.

I see more wheeled equipment around here, although I do have a couple of Gyro-Trac mulchers in the fleet. They are problematic. I'll get around to those eventually. The hot job I am chasing right now involves moving a lot of dirt after the timber is cut, so the plan is to just chip the tops and limbs on-site and haul them back to the yard for processing into mulch and compost. We've been tasked with removing approximately 9 feet average depth over about 5 acres ASAP, as part of a larger project. I haven't calculated it, but that's a good amount of dirt. Obviously can't move the dirt until it's clear. Texas has just about all varieties of terrain. Lots of people watch old Westerns and think Texas is all desert, and yes, West Texas is pretty flat and dry, other than the mountains like the Davis Mountains. Dry, but not so flat. But then we have a lush, green valley (Big Bend country) where lots of fruit and vegetable crops are harvested. Then the Eastern areas where there are rolling hills and pastures leading into the wooded areas. Seems we have it all, including coastal plains along the GoM.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2020, 11:46:18 AM »
The engine tach should be digital and just rev it till it wont rev no more. The other tach should be your saw speed. Not really a handy tool I ever thought. 

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2020, 08:27:04 PM »
Well, on the right, there is an analog tach, and admittedly I have not looked at it with the blade spinning, so you are probably correct. The "smart" meter will cycle through at least some of the operating conditions. Some history is stored, but I have my doubts. It tells that the machine has burned some 72,000+ gallons of fuel, and maybe so, but I have a hard time accepting that. I can get the oil temp and a few other important pieces of data. It's got an alarm light, but I have little confidence in it at this point. I doubt the operator will be scrolling through the menu while cutting. At least he better not be. The guy selected for this machine was raised in a logging family, so he's very familiar with these machines. He's also a decent mechanic, so I feel better about sending it out knowing he's running it.

Today there was no joy. I gathered the hardware to hold the shift lever in Low position, a turnbuckle, some S-hooks, a spring and some other stuff. I went ahead and removed the entire control cable while I was in there. It will probably get replaced, because.....THERE IS NO LOW GEAR! Probably shelled off the teeth some time in the past. Auction machine, so no telling the history. I was hoping this would work out for a bit, at least for this first section of this job. It's just 5 acres, but the whole thing is 50, so it would probably need a review sometimes soon after the first 5 hot acres. So the flames just got higher...and hotter. Now I have to get one of the young strong guys to pull it (I can't - messed up back) so I can have a look inside and see if there is anything I can do to repair it, while I look for a replacement. I've heard there's a place in Arlington, TX that deals in them, so in the morning they get a call. It acts as though the fork is not moving the, well not synchronizer ring since it isn't synchromesh, but the corresponding part (can't recall the proper name at the moment). But it has to be, or I would not be able to get it in and out of High range. So something is broken on the Low side. I've seen manual gearboxes with similar issues that were simply burred over enough to keep the splines from sliding and that's from people jamming the gears together when the synchronizers are worn out. I just hope it's not the gear itself. Pain to make. If I can find a rebuild shop maybe they would sell me a gear, I don't know. I don't really have time to send it out and wait on a rebuild. An exchange would work though. Kind of have a bad feeling about it though. It's not a new machine. Just have to wait and see.

Stay tuned! More drama tomorrow :(
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2020, 10:02:46 PM »
On the little data monitor , if you hold both the arrows down at the same time you can see the engine codes. If it has a yellow light you have an active engine code. Red light is a shut down engine code.  Some time you have to have pressure on that shaft and steer it or slightly move machine to make it cog.  I have seen the exact situation and damage you are thinking it is.  So there are not syncros but slightly beveled mesh gears . If it spun it can roll up small metal and keep it from engaging. I have had success with this issue before by chocking the tractor and removing the drive lines , center slip and rear, so the gear box can be turned manually so you can feel when it is trying to cog and lightly and patiently tap the shift lever to knock the burs off. The shift fork held to shift rod with a roll pin. Problem is I can't remember if method is for the high or the low side. Any way if it does not work you already got the drive lines out. Often when these gear boxes come out , there is spline damage between the hydrostatic motor and the gearbox input shaft (unrelated to your issue)

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2020, 10:14:24 PM »
And also when all is well you would not have to hold it low, it has detents. Did you say you had a parts book? 

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2020, 10:16:08 PM »
I could see that working to straighten out light damage to the gears. Since the drivelines have to come off to remove the thing, it would be a simple matter to try it. Seems like it would work on both hi and lo range. Just a little "technical tapping". One of those $100 dollar hammer jobs. A buck for hitting it, $99 for knowing where and how hard. It would be a great thing if I didn't have to pull it. On that gearbox, are those oil lines simply passages for hydraulic pressure to the transmission? If I do end up pulling it, looks like there is potential to fill the belly pan with oil. I'll have caps and plugs for the JIC fittings, but nothing for any flanged connections. I'm seeing a lot of oil loss and a mess.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2020, 10:17:16 PM »
No, I didn't order the parts book. Just the owner/operator book. It hasn't arrived yet. Thursday I think.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2020, 10:52:38 PM »
I may have parts diagram for that transmission.  There are no hoses going to the gear box . The gear box is it's own sump.  The drive motor is what the hoses are attached to. It needs to be removed before removing the gearbox. The drive motor is a Sauer Danfoss .  

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2020, 11:10:33 PM »
I'd love to have a copy of that. It's a Sauer Danfoss 5164308. I haven't found a exploded view online.


Edit:That was wrong. That make/number is the main hydraulic drive motor, not the transmission.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2020, 11:24:52 PM »
Yelloc makes a push in plug that works on flange fittings or into the motors, another option is they make flange plates and plugs either code 61 or 62 from memory.

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2020, 11:42:45 PM »
Actually, might have some of those now that you mention it. There's an entire different building we were using as a repair shop. I need to go dig around. Axxion probably has all the plates and plugs for this. They're local.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2020, 12:12:59 AM »
These machines came in so many variation as far as hosing goes.  On some they had flange fittings that we're just adapters that had flange on one side and male oring face seal on the other.  Some of the small hoses on the drive motor just go to a remote pressure check.

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2020, 12:26:19 AM »
Seen a lot of that on McCloskey screens. Seems they built with what they could get. I usually make a big mess trying to catch the oil while scrounging in my bucket of plugs and caps.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2020, 08:51:44 AM »
I don't have any books on a 670. The pictures are from a Hydro Ax 511ex. What you have is about the same, maybe just updated. Notice the detent balls and springs are made into the output inshaft not the shift rod

 

 

 
And drive motor

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2020, 10:55:00 AM »
So basically, we are talking about the parts along shaft #10. large gear #8 on one end and outer race #20 on the other. With the suspect parts chiefly #9 and #13. As it appears to me anyway. Deeper than I had hoped. If I can manage it, I'll rock it and see it I can get it to engage today.


Thanks for the illustrations. That helps.
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2020, 02:08:42 PM »
Shift collar 9 would be meshed with gear 8 when in low.

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2020, 05:48:59 PM »
No success trying to rock it and get it to even begin to engage. So...it is set for surgery now to remove the transmission. I'm not physically up to the task, but I have qualified help to extract it. I'll take it back to my own shop and see what is keeping it from ticking like a Swiss watch. Bearings are not likely to be a problem, looking at it from underneath I suspect it will be a good time to replace the seals on the outputs, and anything inside I'll have to straighten, weld up and remachine, or if necessary, make a new part. It may be that parts are available, but I'm under a time constraint so if the lead time is unbearable, I'll have to make new parts if they are that bad. My hunch is that, since it does drive in high gear (although "jerky" feeling probably from improper engagement), something is keeping low gear from moving into proper position. That I should be able to remedy. I've asked that the guys rush it, and I can work on it as soon as they get it out.

It would appear to me that the drive motor must be removed, and the U-joints can be separated, then the transmission is simply sitting on tabs on each side and a bracket across the top. I don't see how it could be dropped out the bottom, so the plan is to lift it out. If necessary, I can lay the cab over a bit more and get a vertical lift with our overhead system, or possibly just use a cherry-picker engine lift.

Your thoughts and suggestions?
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Offline kiko

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2020, 06:12:52 PM »
I never have any problem getting them out with cab all the way untill the cable is tight.  The drive motor does need to come off in frame.  I remove the rear drive shaft completely because it will never get out of the way with one end undone. On center slip just undo ujoint on tractor side. I prefer to take the drive line out first so oil is not dripping on me from unplumbing the drive motor.  Once that top mount is out of the way remove two of the top bolts that hold the case halves  together and put a longer bolt in for the hoist chain. I mentioned this before , check for spline wear between drive motor shaft and input shaft. If you remove line item 15 , keep  orientation as it is, but unless you have bearing  failure on the top shaft , or if you replace the bearings you will not remove it. This goes without saying ,but if you replace the bearings, you will have to reset the end play. So keep up with where the shims came from. That applies to all three shafts.

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2020, 06:45:30 PM »
The main operator suggested that unslotting the cable and lowering the cab more would allow a straight lift, but I'm not keen on that idea. I'd have to round up something to support the cab, and that's just one more thing that could go wrong. And I didn't look closely after he mentioned that (I had already left for the day), but it seems to me the cab lift cylinder wouldn't allow that anyway so would have to be unpinned. I'm sure we can get it out without extraordinary actions.


I always try to work from the bottom up too, for the same reason. I don't care to get an oil shower if I can get out of it.

I've rebuilt about 100 or so automatic and manual transmissions from lots of vehicles and equipment over the years, so I don't foresee any problems. The owner/operator manual probably does not have such information as end play on those shafts, but I'll do some pre-disassembly checks to at least have starting points logged in case I decide to replace some bearings. I'd rather not spend the time on that if it's still within service limits, but again I doubt I'll have the factory numbers. I'll use experience and reason to make those decisions as I go if I don't have the specs. Shouldn't be a problem.

Drawing is a little fuzzy on item 15. Is that a bearing retainer? I'll match-mark it in any case. One thing about working on this, is that back at my shop I work alone, in a HVAC environment with my favorite tunes softly in the background. Now that it's officially shut down, nobody bothers me or even knows when I'm there working, so I'm undisturbed.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2020, 06:56:01 PM »
OK, more on the trans. The tag calls it a Terrell MP300010 sn 01946 mfg 07-04

That's Durst Division of Regal Beloit Corp Beloit WI.

I have found nothing online about that transmission. I sent in a request for information to Durst, since I find virtually nothing on Terrell. Maybe Durst simply absorbed them and they do not exist as a separate entity any more.

Supposedly I have some young bucks working on the R&R so I can get to the insides. Sounds like half to a full day the way they work..

If anyone can point me to a source of an exploded drawing of this transmission/gearbox I'd sure appreciate it. Pictures of pages in a manual would be better than what I have. kiko, your pages are good, but may not be a match for this transmission. Good news though, according to Durst on their product line of speed reducers and drives, etc., is that they use a type of bearing that does not use shims to set up end play, and the shafts are removed without pressing, etc. This being not in their current line I don't know how true that is, but if so, it should make things simpler. If I need parts, I'll either have to make them from scratch, or find a source of junked transmissions.

Kiko, the guys still want to lay the cab on over. We have several telehandlers, and I suppose they could strap it off to one and lay it on over, but I don't trust that to hold for extended time. They could block it up I guess. I looked at the jack cylinder, and I'm convinced it would have to be unpinned to move the cab that far. I'm not crazy about that either. There are a few wires that weren't meant to stretch that far too. I told them I'd loan them my cherry-picker engine hoist so the could be gentle, but they are hard headed. I'm a consultant, but I may have to pull rank on them and force the issue. If I didn't have a messed up back, I would already have the thing apart on my workbench. Can't stand people who dodge work.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2020, 12:41:56 PM »
Every body has their own way, but I have never had to undo the cable or the cab jack cylinder to remove on of those trans/gearbox.  I always used a service truck crane. The chain or strap hooked to the gearbox would be long enough so the pully block was above the cab . Hard to explain.  Your gear box will have the shims as it is actually a Terrell. And you are right the diagram I have won't work for parts replacement numbers as it has Blount part numbers. But you gearbox will be about the same. I have purchased durst parts from great lakes power. There is a complete gearbox for sale on eBay. It is an MP300029 new for 1200, not sure what the difference in specs are between the two.

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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2020, 12:33:38 AM »
Thanks for all the help, kiko. If everything goes right, I'll have it back at my shop late tomorrow. I have to take a turbocharger over to Shreveport for testing. Having problems with a Volvo A20 artic. Bad 2 piece exhaust manifold. Burned through, nothing to weld up and remachine even. So far, the only complete set I've found is in Spain, so trying to get settled on a price and reasonable shipping. After chasing a 460 excavator engine for rebuild, I'm growing a healthy hatred for Volvo machinery. At least I'm getting the 460 back this week, after sending it to the engine shop back in November. I just sat and made a list of my projects....23 items. Some minor, some quite involved. And I'm a disabled consultant. Sheesh! Plan is just to act as coordinator for the heavy stuff. I'm just not up to it any more.

I'll put up a couple of pics of what I find.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2020, 12:28:54 AM »
Well, here it is:


 

It took about half a day to pull, as I expected. They did lay the cab all the way over. I just hope nothing got damaged in the process. I took a pressure washer to it, because they just dumped it on a pallet for me (dirty rats have a washer there, but just lazy or didn't want to help me). It was pretty dirty, probably from oil leaks coming from the motor above, and for sure from the output shafts.

Now that it's sitting on blocks on the floor, I can, with a little help from a dead-blow get it in both high and low range. It's pretty stiff, so there is definitely something going on. I have the drain plug out of it overnight so tomorrow I'll be able to split the case and see what there is binding. Judging from the condition of the control cable, whatever is making it stiff has been that way a while.

I think I'll forego just locking it in low range in favor of freeing up whatever the problem is, if I can, and then leaving it in low for this job but afterward I'll track down the cable and fix it properly.  Of course, with it back in service, no telling what will show up as the next problem. The splines on the drive motor are smooth as glass and I can just barely feel the ridge where the contact with the input splines starts. I'm calling it good. The input splines are also very smooth all around. I was a little concerned, at the age of this machine, but for all I know, all of that has been replaced recently. New seals on the outputs and away we go....I hope.

On the control shaft, there is an adjustment nut to limit linear motion, or end position. Any instructions on setting that up? Or is that just to keep the cable from pushing (or pulling) the shaft too far and rubbing on the face of those spur gears? That I should be able to set easily enough.

More pics tomorrow.
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Re: Hydro-Ax 670 Documents
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2020, 01:57:55 AM »
I'll skip the ugly details, but I tore the propel motor down and found a piston with no seal ring. Well, a little update to the saga. I was able to get the rings overnighted to me. I cleaned everything up, polished all the scratches that were there. Really was not bad at all. Took a few tries to get the pistons and dogbone all aligned when assembling the cylinder block. The old arthritic hands and fingers just don't cooperate like they used to. But I did get it together and delivered. After a few test runs around the shop they decided to go take down a handful of trees and see how well it sawed and grabbed. It did very well. Unfortunately it has been raining on and off for a week or two and the operator drove into a soft spot and sunk it to the frame. End of tests. I left the scene at this point. The plan was to anchor an old milsurp 6x to a tree and winch it out. I don't know the details, but it seems to have propel issues again. I have a feeling they just pulled it out with it not running and not in neutral. That makes me think there is now some motor damage again.
So I'm on the hunt for another motor (used, but running hopefully), since getting parts seems to be a difficult problem to overcome, although I did find what appears to be a good supplier here in-state and within reasonable driving distance should the need become desperate. They say they stock a lot of Danfoss parts, among other makes. I just hate that the damage could be from something as simple as dragging the machine out of the mud. I had already told everyone involved that the machine could not be moved with it in gear, as I had locked the transfer case in low. They would not have been able to drop the driveshafts very easily, because it was sitting on the belly pan and sinking further. But they could have opened the lines or removed the locking collar I had out on the transfer case and taken it out of gear....or something. But the pressure was on, and I'm betting no one gave it any thought. I'll have to find out. They will be pulling the motor on Monday.

To Be Continued......

I'm kind of bummed about it. It was looking like a success story.
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Last post August 23, 2010, 04:24:33 AM
by Piston
 


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