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Author Topic: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.  (Read 4176 times)

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Offline HolmenTree

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HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« on: April 15, 2020, 12:19:07 PM »
Been away for a while, thought I'd check in with some pictures of my project that's been keeping me busy.
I thought Ed (ehp) would especially like this!

This is my little 1982 YZ125 which at the moment I'm building the oil tank to match up to the fuel tank. It's got a peaky 202°/129.55° road race porting so I figure the 14T .404 sprocket will be lots enough of gearing.
Then it's on to adding the bar pad with Stihl 084 studs.

Last pic is my 1983 Honda CR250R waiting in the sidelines to get worked on.


 

 



Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline Evanguy

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2020, 12:33:22 PM »
Thats awesome, i have a 1984 cr250 motor im building a saw with. I built it up quite a bit, When it was in my bike it dynoed at 46whp. Yours looks like a 84 without the big power valve box by the exhaust port. Well not really a power valve but a little flap that opens a small chamber in the head to make a low pressure zone at low rpms.  Either way i removed it on mine.

If you use an oringed head you can use a 3mm over piston from the 250r three wheel motor ( same part number but not listed under cr250)  if you dont oring the head you need to find a multy layer steel headgasket like on the newer motors, (  composite with steel ring wont seal) boyesen radvalve also picked up good power. Also switching to an '88 cr250 flat face carb was nice (38mm pj) i ported it some, (mostly cleaned up the castings and raised exaust port), used an oem 2002 cr250 pipe on it with no silencer

I didnt cut the transmission off like you did. I stripped it of all its bearing, gears and shafts then used the 2 rear mounts to attach my handle too. My top tandle is attached to the cylinder head mount.

I was thinking about building a newer cr80 next ( 20hp in stock form and revs to 12k)

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2020, 01:09:45 PM »
Cool projects guys, back in my bike dealer days I had a Yamaha rz350 for a while (twin cylinder 350cc two stroke) I always wondered how it would work as a race saw engine. I think the Banshee motor is very similar with out the YPVS.

Anyway the bike was super fun to ride and then I sold it so it matters not.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2020, 01:22:37 PM »
Evan, awesome to hear of your '84 250. Your cylinder head is almost identical to my '83. The plug leans in opposite directions with both years.

I looked at the '84 250 but the exhaust port with no bridge kind of scared me off a bit.
I may in the future put in a wiseco 69mm 526 piston but I'd need to lower my cylinder 3mm for it to work.
I got a 68mm cylinder and a spare 66.75mm cylinder both in excellent condition.
The reason I picked the '83 CR250R is it matches my right hand ignition YZ125  with the PTO opposite your '84
I can do both builds with the same laid down horizontal design and reversed engine rotation with a bi directional PVL ignition.

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2020, 01:24:57 PM »
Cool projects guys, back in my bike dealer days I had a Yamaha rz350 for a while (twin cylinder 350cc two stroke) I always wondered how it would work as a race saw engine. I think the Banshee motor is very similar with out the YPVS.

Anyway the bike was super fun to ride and then I sold it so it matters not.
Those are strong motors alright.
But rules and regulations at the contests are standard with 1 cylinder only to keep things safe.
Honda CR500 is a wicked saw.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2020, 01:30:40 PM »
Honds CR500 is a wicked saw.


Yikes! It must it needs a large pulley on the pull chord?

Offline lxskllr

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2020, 01:49:13 PM »
Still on for May(is it?) Willard?

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2020, 02:43:25 PM »
Still on for May(is it?) Willard?
Unfortunately I hear all shows  everything cancelled.
So next year maybe??
Oh well this time off will give my lots of time to get them built right and tested in the wood.
Couldn't find a better excuse to spend more time in the shop haha!
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline barbender

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2020, 02:56:11 PM »
Those things are just madness! I can't imagine a CR500 saw, those things were uncontrollable in a bike!
Too many irons in the fire

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2020, 03:03:17 PM »
Thats awesome, i have a 1984 cr250 motor im building a saw with. I built it up quite a bit, When it was in my bike it dynoed at 46whp. Yours looks like a 84 without the big power valve box by the exhaust port. Well not really a power valve but a little flap that opens a small chamber in the head to make a low pressure zone at low rpms.  Either way i removed it on mine.

If you use an oringed head you can use a 3mm over piston from the 250r three wheel motor ( same part number but not listed under cr250)  if you dont oring the head you need to find a multy layer steel headgasket like on the newer motors, (  composite with steel ring wont seal) boyesen radvalve also picked up good power. Also switching to an '88 cr250 flat face carb was nice (38mm pj) i ported it some, (mostly cleaned up the castings and raised exaust port), used an oem 2002 cr250 pipe on it with no silencer

I didnt cut the transmission off like you did. I stripped it of all its bearing, gears and shafts then used the 2 rear mounts to attach my handle too. My top tandle is attached to the cylinder head mount.

I was thinking about building a newer cr80 next ( 20hp in stock form and revs to 12k)
Evanguy, thanks for the tip about the cylinder head. I noticed lots of glue on my one cylinder deck where someone was trying to seal it down.
I haven't run my Ebay pieced motor yet and I noticed the squish band in the head is off center as my picture shows. Both cylinders have the same offset with the head.
So I got to send it away with 3 pieces of squished solder to get it machined to normal. Will have to cut the cylinder top deck clearance in the hole to zero first.
I may make my own head gasket out of some copper sheet which is easily available through a local retailer in different thicknesses.
Our cylinder heads are strong with their 7 stud design.  Only the 1983 and '84 CR250R had a 7 stud head.
Has to be strong as the CR500 has a 7 stud head.


 

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2020, 03:06:31 PM »
Those things are just madness! I can't imagine a CR500 saw, those things were uncontrollable in a bike!
Yep they are a real powerhouse alright.
I never saw anybody handle a CR500 hotsaw in anything smaller then a one cut hot start 27 inch diameter Douglas fir.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline ehp

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2020, 08:18:00 PM »
I hope you guys all got chain for those saws as no more high tooth being made is the word we re hearing , none has been made sense last June so hope you know someone with a roll or 2 .

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2020, 11:37:06 PM »
I hope you guys all got chain for those saws as no more high tooth being made is the word we re hearing , none has been made sense last June so hope you know someone with a roll or 2 .
Still some new HT for sale but expect to pay $500 plus for s loop.
One guy was asking CAD$1000 for a loop for a 28" bar, Lol.
I was talking to a rep in Virginia Beach last fall and he says the factory is not replacing the worn out dies.
But there "may" be a new .404 chain in the works in the very near future.
I got 30 feet of NOS Oregon 50AL .404 to run on the YZ125's 20" b/c.
May run it for now on the Honda too.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline Air Lad

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2020, 03:35:53 AM »
I owned a YZ125. C model around a 75 build I think
Yammy were first with monoshock system. That is suspension talk, nothing to do with cutting wood.
You're water cooled version is a country mile ahead of the old peaky, non user friendly power band thingy that I thought was the best thing since
sliced bread. Looks like yours has reeds .A later version had a valve that added low down torque and was controlled in unison with the throttle. Bike I had then was a trail only. About 89 model but the mx bikes might have had this valve mabye 85 ish. Dunno .
Hope she cuts great

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2020, 08:28:50 AM »
My 1982 YZ125 here was the second year of water cooling and the first year for the powervalve.
Japanese MX motorcycle development really turned on with the biggest changes from about 1981 to 1986. Then after that it was just yearly small improvements.

Honda pretty well got most things right from day one in the 1980's and the other big three  (Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki) manufacturers followed.  
But Honda did back track to some of their early designs.
Interesting note the Honda CR250R had the same 72mm stroke since 1978. Yamaha YZ250 ran a square 68mm×68mm B/S right up to the late 1990s then switched to Honda's 66.40×72mm B/S.
The big four shared alot of the same exact engine parts like bearings etc.


Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline barbender

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2020, 10:06:45 AM »
Holman, how do you deal with the water cooling with no cooling system? Just fill the jacket with coolant since it won't run long?
Too many irons in the fire

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2020, 01:30:06 PM »
Holman, how do you deal with the water cooling with no cooling system? Just fill the jacket with coolant since it won't run long?
No coolant needed. I filled up the cylinder's water jacket with Devcon aluminium epoxy. Keeps the cylinder bore more stable after increased horse power mods reducing distortion.
In competition we're allowed a minute to warm the saw's motor up.
Then on the word "go" we start the saw and makes our cuts as short as 3 to 4 seconds at WOT.
No water cooling needed, a quick efficient warm up is needed in this situation.
Heat  gauges help keep an eye on engine heat. Usually above 160F these engines will start to lose power.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline Evanguy

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2020, 03:53:09 PM »
Thanks for making this thread, it got me re-excited about my build and I've since found all my parts and got back into it (sorry if im out of line talking about my build in your thread and posting pics, do let me know if i shouldn't be)

that's an interesting idea about cutting the case, then tipping the motor back and reversing the direction, saving on both wright and over all size. also getting the exhaust out of the way of the bar/cut zone. your building technique is quite a bit advanced then mine. i like it. 

the 84 exhaust port sure is big but i haven't found an the issue with it, the one time i did have an issue is on my first rebuild i did on the bike i didn't have the FSM and the exhaust port has a bulletin about how to chanfer the exhaust port to not catch rings on it. interestingly i have cylinder jugs that has the recall done on them and also one that haven't (pics attached) 

going 3mm over was fun for sure but lead to a load of headaches with pushing coolant before i realized why, i copper sheet would have been the simplest i was young at the time and didn't think about that. i ended up cutting an o-ring grove around the combustion chamber then using gasket maker to seal the coolant part. i do like the 7 stud design, lots of clamping force evenly spread.

i wasnt sure what i was going to do with the coolant, that's a good idea really. i see I'm going to learn a lot from this thread.

i had no idea about the chain and have never even looked into what i needed, i assumed id be running the same type of 404 chain that's on my stihl 084

i wonder if an 83 head would bolt on the 84 bottom since i'm not using the ATAC system, i guess i can just buy a cheap base gasket and that will let me know, or if you ever are feeling board maybe you can grab the measurements on the 4 base studs























Offline ehp

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2020, 09:28:05 PM »
if you want to cut fast you need the taller tooth and the bigger the wood the higher tooth makes a bigger difference. if your cutting small wood 3/8 chain will cut fast on the 125, I would not put it on the 250

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2020, 09:31:23 PM »
I put my bar oil in where the coolant went in the jug

Offline Evanguy

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2020, 09:41:14 PM »
^^ I was thinking about doing that..then using the drain plug to put a petcock on and use a gravity system, if i wasnt going to make a coolant system on it. I may go that route still.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2020, 09:58:42 PM »
if you want to cut fast you need the taller tooth and the bigger the wood the higher tooth makes a bigger difference. if your cutting small wood 3/8 chain will cut fast on the 125, I would not put it on the 250
I'm no longer running 3/8 on the 125.
Both the 250 and 125 are setup with .404.
Biggest wood I'll cut will be 22" pine in Kaslo B.C and 22" dug fir in Squamish.
They got a 140cc hotsaw class and open hotsaw class in Squamish where I can run both saws.
The 125 will run 12T .404 and the 250 will run 14T .404 but possibly 16T if I get the power I'm expecting it should put out.
I'll  be keeping a look out for some 46RST but this 50AL chain I have is nice .050 .404 chain on both saws.
Lots of room for race chain mods with that big chassis.


 

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2020, 10:33:05 PM »
Thanks for making this thread, it got me re-excited about my build and I've since found all my parts and got back into it (sorry if im out of line talking about my build in your thread and posting pics, do let me know if i shouldn't be)

that's an interesting idea about cutting the case, then tipping the motor back and reversing the direction, saving on both wright and over all size. also getting the exhaust out of the way of the bar/cut zone. your building technique is quite a bit advanced then mine. i like it.

the 84 exhaust port sure is big but i haven't found an the issue with it, the one time i did have an issue is on my first rebuild i did on the bike i didn't have the FSM and the exhaust port has a bulletin about how to chanfer the exhaust port to not catch rings on it. interestingly i have cylinder jugs that has the recall done on them and also one that haven't (pics attached)

going 3mm over was fun for sure but lead to a load of headaches with pushing coolant before i realized why, i copper sheet would have been the simplest i was young at the time and didn't think about that. i ended up cutting an o-ring grove around the combustion chamber then using gasket maker to seal the coolant part. i do like the 7 stud design, lots of clamping force evenly spread.

i wasnt sure what i was going to do with the coolant, that's a good idea really. i see I'm going to learn a lot from this thread.

i had no idea about the chain and have never even looked into what i needed, i assumed id be running the same type of 404 chain that's on my stihl 084

i wonder if an 83 head would bolt on the 84 bottom since i'm not using the ATAC system, i guess i can just buy a cheap base gasket and that will let me know, or if you ever are feeling board maybe you can grab the measurements on the 4 base studs


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Evanguy you can post pictures  all you want.
Your '84 is a good motor like the newer '85 '86. The only thing it shares with my '83 is the head.
Only reason I went '83 CR250R is it has the PTO on the left side just like my '82 YZ125.  So I can build then both the same .
When I finish the 125 I'll be ready to do a good job on the 250.
With these saws they have:
•Excellent lower center of gravity.
•Can cut from both sides of the log 
•Excellent view of the log and b/c.
•Left hand is not up high holding saw.
•Fuel tank is not over the exhaust pipe
•Ignition coil, oil tank and fuel lines covered up out of the way under one cover.
•These saws oilers are pressurized with a valve connected to the throttle to squirt oil at 3/4 throttle.
I had that oiler setup on the YZ125 for over 36 years.

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2020, 11:07:26 PM »
Evanguy,
Here's a picture I drew up last year of my '83 base stud spacing and crank.
I was trying to see if a newer CR250 cylinder and crank would fit. 
They don't. 


 
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2020, 06:47:37 AM »
in 22 inch wood without high tooth I donot care how much power you have you will not be even close , one thing you need to think about is your port timing , motor is shut off and you start it on go , if your porting is to high the motor will not spool up in time so the race is already over before you even touch the wood , . Having lots of power for the 3rd cut is way to late

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2020, 06:51:26 AM »
Oregon harvester chain the new stuff is far better than the chain you have as far as cutting speed goes, the tooth is taller , yes its .063 gauge but your chain is .058 gauge up at the top so only .005 bigger plus the .063 is far stronger

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2020, 08:19:01 AM »
in 22 inch wood without high tooth I donot care how much power you have you will not be even close , one thing you need to think about is your port timing , motor is shut off and you start it on go , if your porting is to high the motor will not spool up in time so the race is already over before you even touch the wood , . Having lots of power for the 3rd cut is way to late
All good advice Ed, but even though my YZ125 has the exhaust at 202° it's still a hyper quick 50mm stroke 125cc engine. It's VForce 3 reed cage and TRX style custom drag pipe will have her at WOT into the first cut.
My CR250R port timing will be at 190°/129° also with a VF3 reed cage and drag pipe.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2020, 08:31:48 AM »
Oregon harvester chain the new stuff is far better than the chain you have as far as cutting speed goes, the tooth is taller , yes its .063 gauge but your chain is .058 gauge up at the top so only .005 bigger plus the .063 is far stronger
Are you sure that harvester chain isn't. 080 gauge?
I don't think there's enough sideplate on a semi chisel harvester chain to make it into a proper square chisel.
Matter of fact I see some shows are banning harvester chain because of it's high chain shot forces going through safety shields.
The 46RST HT is not such a big deal, guys like Mel Lentz complain it stretches bad, weak and depth gauges too low. 
I'm not shy to put 40 hours into my 50AL race chain. With the matched sprocket gearing for the competition's diameter of log, I'll have it under control.  :)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2020, 12:12:05 PM »
there is different depth gauges setting on high tooth, All your fast times are cut using high tooth or 1/2 inch . the chain fills under the cutter and once the tooth is full it cuts no more wood , Believe me we tested a lot and high tooth on 3 cuts in 20 inch is over a second faster and closer to 2 seconds. I have some taller tooth .063 Oregon here we tried from harvester . Its ok up to about 12 inch wood , anything bigger the higher tooth takes over . You geared down pretty good to , A stock 250 will scream a 16 tooth gear using high tooth chain . High tooth is stock stihl chain with just a taller tooth , some guys pull the tooth off and use .080 gauge setup and the harvest chain is chisel not semi , It pays to know people lol, I spent lots of time in Oregon plant here on making my own high tooth chain . Only problem was the plant was booked for at least 2 but more likely 3 years making chain

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2020, 12:18:19 PM »
well then you should know , the bigger the diameter of log the higher number of tooth the gear needs to be so the cutter cuts the full way across the block . If your cutter gets full it stakes the rest of the way across the block and starts bouncing in the cut . The chain your using we played lots with and went as high as 24 tooth gear on a rotax and after 20 tooth it made zero difference as was still a lot slower than high tooth setup running a 16 or 17 tooth setup

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2020, 04:41:39 PM »
Ed, yeah I missed out on the Stihl HT chain. Could have easily bought some loops a few years ago from J.S.B. Called him last fall and he said their gone.
Jerry Gingras set a record with the 46RST. 404 years back beating his 1/2 inch times.
The chain has been around for almost 20 years now. Hopefully the rumor it'll be replaced with a newer version...as long as there still is a Stihl Timbersports.

I was in the Guelph plant on a tour back in the early 1980's. Lots of history in that place.
It used to be Planer Chain Ltd Guelph, Ontario Canada.
Oregon bought Planer out in 1952.
1957 the company changed its name to Omark Industries but still keeping the Oregon brand name.

Here's some pics of the Stihl 46RST high tooth.


 

 
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Offline snowstorm

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2020, 04:42:52 PM »
Most harvester chain is 404.  80 Stihl make 2 versions. 1 is stronger. Oregon 18 or 19 x

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2020, 04:53:27 PM »
Most harvester chain is 404.  80 Stihl make 2 versions. 1 is stronger. Oregon 18 or 19 x
The last .063 harvester chain I ran on my Stihl 090-60" was the older Stihl chain . I thought everything went .080 every since.
I got a 12T .404  NOS Sandvik .063 harvester sprocket to run on my YZ125 and ordered a 14 also. The hub adapter is getting made at the moment. 


 

 

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2020, 05:22:37 PM »
To swing those bikesaws this equipment is very important.
I'm 62 and still using them everyday for over 40 years now :)
This is my gym in my laundry room. 


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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2020, 05:26:26 PM »
Winter of 1988 running my YZ125.

Brother's Mac 101 kart saw beat me that day.
The experimental pipe's long stinger didn't work out.


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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2020, 05:32:28 PM »
Brother Dennis with his 101 Mac with 34mm carb, inverted pipe stinger.


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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2020, 05:41:43 PM »
Also on that day Peter Holmquist Husqvarna distributor from Vancouver (originally farmed near our Saskatchewan farm) is running the first ever Husqvarna 3120XP in North America with a pipe. ;D


 
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Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2020, 10:35:20 PM »
Yes sir!! That’s right! Getting after those weights makes a difference🏋️‍♀️🏋️‍♀️💪💪

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2020, 03:16:58 PM »
Jerry set a lot of records but if your talking about the 20 inch Boonville record I think was in 2017 , maybe a different year than that but I seem to know that chain very well he ran ;D, Dave won 2018 Boonville with a stock bore stock stroke  cr 250 from here . Just like everything else as time goes on things get faster

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2020, 04:26:22 PM »
Jerry set a lot of records but if your talking about the 20 inch Boonville record I think was in 2017 , maybe a different year than that but I seem to know that chain very well he ran ;D, Dave won 2018 Boonville with a stock bore stock stroke  cr 250 from here . Just like everything else as time goes on things get faster
Yes it was the 20" Boonville record. There was discussion about it a few months ago on another forum talking about the high tooth chain.

Yeah those short stroke CR250 honda are pretty impressive. With my CR250 build I'm going into a whole new uncharted territory.
My '83 has the same basic bore/stroke and porting as the newer ones with non PV TRX design cylinder and CR500 style head.
A guy posted  his bikes dyno  sheet for his 1986 68mm x 72mm short rod  CR250 making 261cc.
Max power 57.05 at 7,460 rpm
Max torque  40.49 at 7,300
at the rear wheel!

It's going to be later this summer when I get the Honda in the wood, got to get the Yamaha done first so I know what to do with the Honda.
I definitely will find some .404 high tooth chain, I may have to pay a king's ransom for it though.
And definitely will run a 16T gear on it.
I thankyou for your usual good advice Ed. Hopefully I can get my tree service season started up this year to help pay for these extra custom parts.
Are you doing any logging?
They do need toilet paper and masks!!
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2020, 07:54:09 PM »
logging 7 days a week, just got home. What rpm are you spinning motor at . I know the cr 125 Honda I built the pipe for sure cut really well , Pipe was built for 11,250 rpms . Motor was stroked . It ran 3/8's chain but was never suppose to be in big wood . Big wood I would be running high tooth

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2020, 09:27:20 PM »
logging 7 days a week, just got home. What rpm are you spinning motor at . I know the cr 125 Honda I built the pipe for sure cut really well , Pipe was built for 11,250 rpms . Motor was stroked . It ran 3/8's chain but was never suppose to be in big wood . Big wood I would be running high tooth
Good to hear you're busy putting timber in the landing!
The honda cr250r I haven't got it together to run yet. Got all new parts plus spares along with spare cylinder and crank. Enough to build 2 motors. One cylinder 66.75mm the other 68mm , both never ported, bores are mint and ready for a fresh hone.
It will run the 28" roller bar , 16T & 46RST, cone pipe, PVL analog ignition and SBN 38 carb.

The YZ125 I never had a tach on it, but with the factory 202°/129° port #'s it's peaky.
New cone pipe will be built and see how it runs with the SBN 38. Already setup and run in with the new PVL analog ignition.
It'll just run primarily the short roller bar and got it setup for .404 now .
Should have it in the wood in a few weeks.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2020, 01:02:23 PM »
So I'll try  both saws with the Mikuni SBN 38mm jetski gas carb. Then if it works out for both, the next new SBN 38 I'll buy will "probably" be a alky carb.
Not sure yet which motor will get the alky carb and the other running race gas.


 

 

 
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2020, 01:17:37 PM »
3.5 oz bar oil tank inside a 17 oz fuel tank. Got it all figured out now, just need to install 4 aluminum 1/4" fittings on the back, get it all tig welded together then cut the top to accept the gas/oil cap top plate and three bond 1194 gasket.



 
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2020, 06:23:00 PM »
Almost ready for tig welding.


 

 

 

 
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Offline Evanguy

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2020, 06:31:28 AM »
Holemen tree, wow i see this is not your first rodeo, its deffently mine so im excited to read this thread and learn. You have been doing this since before i was born ('85)

Also yeah the '83 top end wont fit on the 84 bottom end, if it did i would have used the 83 head to save weight and time. But ill just cut off the atac box on the 84 head to clean it up and make it lighter

I just ordered new rings and crank bearings for my build.

Im  a manual machinist who mainly runs a mill, but ive been layed off due to this covid 19 so my progress is slow right now.

What do you think about using the coolant jackets to hold the bar oil, and the drain hole as the output then pressurizing it with a small tube from near the stinger of the expansion chamber

Thats an awesome carb, now that i look around a bit more i notice lots of hot saws runs those carbs, they are off a jetski? What is the advantage over a flatside dirt bike carb? Say like a keihin pj 38 or a pwk 38 airstriker.

Once some more of my parts get here ill start a thread on my build. Also i hope to get into work for a day to get some work done on it. And back and forth if i should cut the cases. It will save a little weight but i have a hard time cutting stuff that is hard to come by ( i restore lee metfords and lee enfields as my main hobby)

Awesome thread, its been real helpfull.

There no chainsaw compaitions around here..so im building this just for fun so i can cut cookies in my yard. Can i use a 404  .080" harvester bar and chain with a 16 tooth rear? Or will the chain come off with out a fatbelly bar

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2020, 10:51:16 AM »
Evanguy, first off my condolences to all you Nova Scotians in this time what you all are going through.
I was born and raised in Saskatchewan but I do have a first cousin in Bedford, Nova Scotia.
My family and I a few years ago toured on vacation all throughout Nova Scotia and we loved it along with all the great people we met.

There are many good competitions in the Maritimes many competitors into the Stihl Timbersport teams.
You gotta start somewhere in the smaller shows.

Your engine will be in a standup vertical profile so yeah bar oil in the cylinder water jacket works well. You really don't even need to pressurize it.
Just an inline valve to turn it on and off and let gravity and the suction of the drive links do its job.
My horizontal profile saw I need to keep all the extra weight I can at the front of the saw for good balance.

Yes that's a pumper jetski carb. I ran chainsaws most of my life with 2 adjustment screws and that's why I like this carbs setup.
I know nothing about dirt bike carbs.

Yes a .080 harvester bar is a good idea starting out, of course you'll need a .080 chain to match which unfortunately is semi chisel.
But with a motor pushing 50 hp semi chisel doesn't really matter for someone learning the ropes.
Just make sure no one is standing at any distance in front of your saw while your cutting . Think of shooting your Lee Enfield rifle.

If that chain breaks "chain shot" can pass through a solid steel guard.
Know your limitations!!

Matching the tail to a 16T .404 sprocket is so important that's where a harvester bar to match that diameter is so important.

One of my favorite rifles I owned is a Lee Enfield MK IV .303
I had a 4X scope on it and the rifling of the barrel was very good straight shooting. Tough rifle.
I heard  some of our WWll vets tell stories that they could smash a door open with the butt of that rifle.


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Offline Evanguy

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2020, 10:05:47 AM »
Thank you, and nova scotia is a nice place. i like it here, i from the halifax area but moved out of the HRM a few years ago now.
  
Ill have to check out some of the smaller shows and see whats up. I think there are some around but i cant really find any info online. Also im more so intrested in chainsaws then axes. Although that may change

Also this has been very helpfull to me. Loads of great info.

I got my top handle waterjetted out at work, still need to find time to weld it up between all my other projects lol.  I also sold all the inners of my 84 bottom end. So ill be cutting the cases to remove the transmission section.

Did you get any more work done on your motors?

Im going to start my build thread once this handle is finished. 

 

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2020, 10:10:32 PM »
remember vibration is your real enemy so make sure you have as close to zero as you can get . the more the saw vibrates the harder it is to keep the chain on it . If your using .080 gauge chain you can buy bars from Oregon that fit up to 18 tooth , the one harvester  runs a 17 or 18 tooth gear

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2020, 07:21:44 AM »
i run a ctl harvester. i like sthil  chain doesn't break as often as others. sthil makes 2 one is heavier. oregon 18x cuts as good but weights less if that matters to you. the new 19x i was told takes a lot of hp. i have not tried it. a oregon speed max xl bar comes in lots of different widths and taper towards the sprocket. all 404  80 rakers at .050  

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2020, 08:30:03 PM »
Little update here. My welder did a beautiful job welding up the YZ125 and cr250r fuel tanks with built in chain oil tank.
He used mig on the exterior and tig on the interior oil tank . These tanks are solid !
Now I can get the carbon fiber sideplates with bar pads all done up.
I'll have to do the project on the rainy off days as I'm  back into the start of my tree service season.


 

 

 

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2020, 09:55:47 PM »
See you are officially 'snowless' Willard - but maybe it is not a good thing to say that too loudly though just yet - eh?  
I made the mistake here and said that and we got 6" of the crap a week back a couple of days later..
Not bad weather now - but lots of stuff to get done with before our second season starts here (Bug Season) which I think will 'kick off' later this week!
Ever hear from your engineer friend from last years' accident?  Got wondering how he made out..
Randy

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2020, 10:51:32 PM »
Randy, yes spring or maybe it's  summer now has finally sprung. It's calling for rain later in the week which will get the tree buds opening and get some much needed greenery.

No.I haven't heard from Chris since his train derailment accident, besides being one of his customers at his dealership we weren't all that close.
He sold his gas station and car wash and his wife and grandson are still running the Stihl dealership.
Yep really good people.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2020, 04:22:31 AM »
remember vibration is your real enemy so make sure you have as close to zero as you can get . the more the saw vibrates the harder it is to keep the chain on it . If your using .080 gauge chain you can buy bars from Oregon that fit up to 18 tooth , the one harvester  runs a 17 or 18 tooth gear
i run a ctl harvester. i like sthil  chain doesn't break as often as others. sthil makes 2 one is heavier. oregon 18x cuts as good but weights less if that matters to you. the new 19x i was told takes a lot of hp. i have not tried it. a oregon speed max xl bar comes in lots of different widths and taper towards the sprocket. all 404  80 rakers at .050  
I like the look of the 19X. Alot heavier then the 18X and cuts faster from reports.
Speed max XL bar and 16- 18 T sprocket looks like a good setup.

Oregon doesn't recommend the 19X on spur sprockets , they say rim sprocket only.
What do you guys think?



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Offline olcowhand

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2020, 06:39:36 PM »
Willard,
Until I started reading your posts, I didn't know the difference between a Spur Sprocket and a Rim Sprocket.... I personally think there's less "lash" in the Rim Sprocket over time. The Chain wears grooves in the Spur type.
For your application, I have no expertise or opinion, but I trust yours... I'm just following because you've got a cool build going.
Steve
They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2020, 11:40:32 PM »
Thanks Steve, I got plans for the 1992 066 too. :)
The spur sprocket is actually preferred turning the chain on these high powered hot saws.
I've always had one on my 37 year old Yamaha and I never threw a chain.

Now I'm thinking why Oregon recommends the rim sprocket on the new heavy fast cutting 19X harvester chain is dangers of chain shot.

This heavy 65 hp rated chain running with a 16-18 tooth sprocket would be putting out some major chain speed .
The result of breakage from a derail when the spurs teeth grap onto the chain can cause some serious damage. Especially when pieces of chain are flying everywhere.
We all know how little happens when we derail a chain on our chainsaws with a rim sprocket.
But the spurs if properly tensioned  are easier on the chain and derail less then a rim.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2020, 09:44:13 AM »
I can't find any information from the Stihl websites on harvester bars and chain.
Nothing pulls up on a google search.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2020, 10:40:45 AM »
Still pecking away at the projects. 
Limited time as my tree service season is full on.


 
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2020, 12:00:00 PM »
I use sthil.404 harvester chain. As far as I know it’s still made. Only bought one of there harvester bars. That was enough. It was made in Brazil. No give to it and it broke. The best bar is painted blue. Lggesund forest. One tuff bar

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2020, 02:39:05 PM »
I use sthil.404 harvester chain. As far as I know it’s still made. Only bought one of there harvester bars. That was enough. It was made in Brazil. No give to it and it broke. The best bar is painted blue. Lggesund forest. One tuff bar
snowstorm,  this must be for a processor you're running not a hand held hotsaw....or you'd have arms big enough to rip trees out of the ground breaking that bar :D
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2020, 03:45:43 PM »
I know that I’m still looking forward to more of this thread. I’m looking forward to it every time I log on. I guess my wants are small, but I bet that you all would like to see how it comes out as well. Yes, I mean EVERYONE, including you, Willard.
Trying harder everyday.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2020, 10:31:45 PM »
Yes Tacotodd I'm pumped :D
Going from a 125cc bikesaw to a 250cc model is new uncharted territory for me. Will definitely keep the rakers higher on this one.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2020, 03:36:07 AM »
So I'll try  both saws with the Mikuni SBN 38mm jetski gas carb. Then if it works out for both, the next new SBN 38 I'll buy will "probably" be a alky carb.
Not sure yet which motor will get the alky carb and the other running race gas.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Crikey... My old RM250B had a 36mm Mikuni . Come to think of it my 900 Ducati had 2 x 40 mm Delorto's ,that's 40mm each 450cc cylinder( actually the 900 Duc was 864cc, but still?). Enjoying seeing your project/s unfold  smiley_thumbsup

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2020, 10:14:32 AM »
So I'll try  both saws with the Mikuni SBN 38mm jetski gas carb. Then if it works out for both, the next new SBN 38 I'll buy will "probably" be a alky carb.
Not sure yet which motor will get the alky carb and the other running race gas.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Crikey... My old RM250B had a 36mm Mikuni . Come to think of it my 900 Ducati had 2 x 40 mm Delorto's ,that's 40mm each 450cc cylinder( actually the 900 Duc was 864cc, but still?). Enjoying seeing your project/s unfold  smiley_thumbsup
Moto cross engines with reed valve intakes from about 1981 and newer have huge intake and port flow.
My YZ125 was handling no problem a 40mm + snowmobile carb.
These 125 mx motors have port flow with much higher rpm capabilities to match the larger 250cc engines.
I'm thinking running the same size 38 SBN on both 125 and 250 hotsaws.
But there is one other similar carb in 38 and 40mm that the Honda cr250r may get.
I've decided Alcohol fuel is no longer in my plans. Definitely will not run it now.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2020, 10:01:59 AM »
@Evanguy
How is your 1984 CR250R hotsaw project progressing?
I have a photo here of a rough mock up of my 1983 CR250R project.
I found a CR250R 2003/04 FMF Fatty pipe from Royal Distributing (@ehp) hometown area. They blew them out on sale for $259 ($170USD). Can't go wrong with that!
Also bought 3 harvester .080" bars out of Alberta for $100 each. 22" 25" 28". The "22 was back ordered and coming to my door this week.
Harvester chain coming out of Quebec.

Now to get the fuel / oil tank moved 2" rearward and bolted in. Modify the pipe and get it mounted.


 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2020, 11:41:12 AM »
Willard, I am on a couple of bike groups especially the 2 Strokes of the early 80s. It would really be something to see your Yamaha powered saw in action.
Would it be possible for you to upload a clip to YouTube and post a link.

Please! smiley_biggrin01

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2020, 02:40:44 PM »
Joe,
I will have videos to post in a month or 2.
I have no videos of the YZ125 cutting when last filmed over 30 years ago. My brother has some on VCR tape that could be transferred to digital DVD. But he lives half way across the country.

The 1980's motorcycle 2 strokes were very strong and simple to work on.
My 1983 Honda CR250 design is the last year with a cast iron sleeve and no exhaust power valve.
1984 Honda introduced aluminum cylinder bores plated with Nikisel and the complicated power valve in the exhaust port.

In 1997 Mr Honda admitted the transition to Nikisel in 1984 was for cost savings and faster factory production runs. But cast iron lined aluminum cylinders were more superior in lubricancy,  better compression capabilities and more rigid durability for maximum power.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2020, 09:16:23 PM »
you sure that pipe is going to work on the 250, totally different engine design , 2002 to 2007 cr engines are different than the test 

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2020, 09:23:11 PM »
your pipe is for a crankcase with reed block mounted in it, your motor has that on the cylinder , port timing is different as well

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2020, 10:03:49 PM »
No problems Ed. This is a Fmf 2003-2004 CR250R pipe.
The 2003 CR250R has stock 188-189°exhaust with 129-130° transfer porting same as what my 1983 CR250R will be ported to.
Plus same bore stroke,. Same identical exhaust transfer cylinder port design and sizes. Case reed versus my cylinder reed makes little or no difference .

I'm cutting the header pipe to fit my horizontal engine. Plus it will be adjustable for length for tuning.Same with an adjustable stinger.
It will take some adjusting and testing but will all work out.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2020, 11:41:27 PM »
Just to add...

Ideally a handmade cone pipe  custom built to a custom built blue printed engine is the ultimate way to go...but if no dyno testing is done the custom pipe may mean nothing even if the computer program says it should work that way.

This  2003 CR250R pipe fits my 1983 exhaust flange. Same interior port match also.
1992 to 2001 CR250R pipe flanges were completely different flange hookups.

The 2002 to 2007 CR250R engines were built in the lines of a high rpm road racer powerband.  This FMF fatty pipes give a bit more to these engines low end and mid range plus the same on top.

In the end I still may go 195° on the exhaust with the transfers left at 130° getting 36° blow down because my engine won't be a big bore , only 261cc....then I may order a custom built cone pipe.
Lots of 261cc CR250R bikes  out there pushing dynoed 57plus h.p.at the rear wheel and that's with full air filter and pipe silencers.

My wife and I have August long weekend 2021 booked for Squamish,B.C. Logger Sports. If there is one next year??
But in the meantime I have lots of time getting these 2 saws on board for testing.
I got my practice harvester bars and 99DL of the new chamfer chisel 19HX chain.
Who knows in the end I may end up with a custom GEM bar and Stihl HT chain.

Pic is the new .080 19HX chain compared to the older .063 Stihl harvester.
Beautiful chamfer chisel on the 19HX with  high depth gauges and a chassis that is rated for 65 hp and won't stretch like a Stihl  HT .063.
Perfect for practicing and testing.


 


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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2020, 08:21:19 PM »
I don't understand how these Oregon harvester bars and chain are cheaper then regular chainsaw b/c

I got these 22" 25" 28" .404 .080 bars out of Edmonton, Alberta each for $100 CDN ($73 US) plus shipping.  
The 99DL 19HX harvester chain came out Quebec for $38 CDN ($28US) plus shipping.
Go figure...
Great practice and testing b/c for the CR250R bikesaw!



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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2020, 01:14:03 PM »
My tree service isn't allowing any free time in the workshop tinkering with the hotsaw projects. 
So found a hour last night to clamp a bar/chain onto the Honda for motivation.  :D


 
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2020, 01:31:05 PM »
What's the difference between a "practice" bar and a "production" bar in a race scenario? What's the practice bar lacking?

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2020, 01:44:32 PM »
Wow, lots of great reading to do! 
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Various Chainsaws

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2020, 10:40:00 PM »
What's the difference between a "practice" bar and a "production" bar in a race scenario? What's the practice bar lacking?
lxskllr,
These harvester bar/chain are .404 .080 rated for 25hp min/65hp max.
When you're testing and constantly practicing this heavy duty setup is a must when you're saw is pushing over 50 hp.
The expensive. 063 46RST high tooth race chain would be stretched and ripped to shreds.
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2020, 08:22:21 AM »
That is some serious sprocket!! will give chain speed,wow
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2020, 09:45:27 AM »
That is some serious sprocket!! will give chain speed,wow
That's just a small 14T .404 teakwood.
I have a 16T coming in the mail next week.
I bought the 14T for the bigger 22 inch diameter Douglas fir out on the west coast of B.C.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2020, 10:44:27 AM »
Anyone out there having experience speed bucking the 22" Douglas fir at Squamish  B.C. and other areas. 
Please send me a PM if you have any info on sprocket size etc.
I've never cut competition wood that big before.
Thanks. 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2020, 11:30:34 AM »
My local machinist here in the photo is making bolt on  starter rope pulleys for the Honda and Yamaha.
He has a well equipped shop and been in it for over 40 years.
Last pic is my work bench.


 

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2020, 09:13:59 PM »
Pulleys are on my work bench. 


 

 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2020, 08:43:53 AM »
 :o  That sprocket looks like it could go on a combine.  8)
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2020, 10:30:53 AM »
:o  That sprocket looks like it could go on a combine.  8)
Indeed :D and it's just a medium sized one!
Speaking of farm equipment I remember wrapping a rope around the starter pulley on a Wisconsin powering my Dad's swather.
Not such a big deal like flywheel hand starting a John Deere D with the petcocks open but makes one appreciate electric starters.   ;D
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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2020, 05:19:35 PM »
I will have the little YZ125 in the wood soon, the Honda CR250 will be saved for last.

My machinist did a great job on the drive sprocket and rewind pulley. 
I got the PTO side dust seal perfectly centered to the crankshaft on my own.


 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2020, 03:12:30 PM »
My construction journey is slowly coming to an end. 
Saw's profile foundation is done. 
Now to cutting the top handle sideplates to balance and start bolting on pieces.


 

 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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Re: HolmenTree bikesaw projects.
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2020, 10:25:48 AM »
Another mockup profile pic, this time the YZ125. 
My welder tig welded the pipe back together . I'm now making the mount brackets for him to weld on, plus he'll bend the stinger pipe away to the side  from the rear handle.


 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.


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