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Author Topic: goose neck into logging trailer  (Read 6757 times)

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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2020, 09:57:29 AM »
Now that's a tree!!
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2020, 11:29:47 AM »
Yellowhammers setup is simple and effective. I like that. I have a 5x8 utility trailer with sides. I should make something like what yellowhammer has and maybe make unloading the trailer a little easier.

Online doc henderson

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2020, 12:46:09 PM »
i am already thinking I might add a D shaped handle or two to the uprights.  easier to move and remove, and will not roll off the trailer.  maybe even make a way to stow them using the handles.  do you have lift attachments to the bases.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline caveman

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2020, 01:20:22 PM »
Doc, the ones I have are not as strong as YH's or SC's but they fit in the back of my pickup, work on my bumper pull and GN trailers and were built out of scrap 3" channel and 2" pipe.  I drilled holes and welded 5/8" nuts on some of them so that a 5/8" bolt can be screwed in to keep them from bouncing out (speed bumps).  When they get tweaked one way, I just install them facing the other way the next time.  I did have one channel get bent to 90į- it was no match for a 30,000 pound loader.

I use landscape timbers or broken 4x4's under the logs and try to put them on top of the trailer's crossmembers.  This really saves wear and tear on the trailer deck.

 

 

 Sometimes the tractor rides on the back and the logs go up front.  I like having the single, removeable uprights for when I am unloading logs that are heavier than the Kubota likes to lift or if the ground is not level.

Offline Satamax

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2020, 01:32:21 PM »
I love that! 

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Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2020, 01:54:23 PM »
I love that!

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
No side post bending with that angle. Now if it was pinned so you could take the sides off would be nice 🤔. Yellowhammers setup is slick. But a angled upright pinned brace that removes with the upright would eliminate most upright bending 

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2020, 02:26:10 PM »
I love that!

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
No side post bending with that angle. Now if it was pinned so you could take the sides off would be nice 🤔. Yellowhammers setup is slick. But a angled upright pinned brace that removes with the upright would eliminate most upright bending
I don't have a picture but the angle on the removeable uprights can be made from chain to keep them from spreading and the weight of the logs pulls them in rather than spreading. Many of the stave haulers use them to haul stave logs to the mill and sawn staves back to a cooperage. They use channel sized to fit the stake pockets. Keep it simple. Its not like you are going to load 13'6" high like a tandem log truck. All you need is to keep the logs from rolling off until you get them strapped down and from rolling off when you are unstrapping. You hang one with a big loader all you have to do is turn the crook inside. 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2020, 04:15:57 PM »
The problem with little stakes is when they hold 2 tiers and you go for a 3rd, just resting the logs ontop in the notches of other logs.  Then one rolls away from you and over off the far side onto the ground.. Or fender.. Or a mailbox or car or dog or person.  Dont take it for granted that your containment will contain a stick of timber.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2020, 05:24:56 PM »
Stavebuyer made a great point on using chain👍. Note (Yellowhammer used round tubing on the side supports)  It has a higher strength than comparable square tubing

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2020, 05:30:30 PM »
Walnut Beast is correct, I used round cold rolled for the stubs and uprights.  Heavy wall round tubing is best, especially for systems that slide inside each other, like sleeves.  It also increases the load bearing capacity, or the shear capacity, of the bunk pocket joints, where the stubs are welded in.  

The bunks themselves with the studs stay in the trailer year round, unless I trade trailers. This particular setup has been used on two PJ trailers, with no modifications between the two.

The vertical posts slip on and off easily by hand, although a handle might be handy.  

The setup basically leaves the trailer open, even with the bunks installed.  I carry 4 packs of wood every week to get planed, and I donít want to take the bunks themselves off, only the uprights.  



If desired the bunks are easy to remove, simply lift up one side from the stake pocket, lift the other side from the stake pocket, rotate the assembly 90į and then simply slide it off the trailer no the ground.  

I have tried wood, and they broke. I have tried 4 inch steel channel, and it bent.  I have been using these for years, and still perfect.  Logs arenít loaded gently, knuckle booms and loaders are not delicate, and thatís whatís used, at several places to load me.  

In order to meet DOT Log Truck regulations, logs must be loaded side to side, tightly packed, and must bear on themselves and the side supports.  This prevents sliding, and the strength of the uprights must be stronger than the weight of the logs.  These are built that strong.  The uprights will not break under the full weight of the logs, and not delicate loader operators have almost flipped the trailer trying side push a log between the uprights that wouldnít fit.  If a log is jacked up when loading, the loader canít just jam them down, because the sides wonít flex, itís that strong.  

There is another added benefit in that when mega logs are loaded and I donít have the lifting capacity to dead lift them over the uprights, I can simply remove the uprights from one side, and roll the off the side of the trailer by pushing it.  

These were unloaded by rolling off with the side supports removed.






On a normal load, I just deadlift over the uprights.  To give you an idea of how much this gets used, just two weeks ago I transported a full trailer load of lumber to a neighboring town, with the uprights removed, came back home, slid the side posts on, and trucked 4 full capacity loads of logs, by 1300.  Thatís a lot of hauling and the bunks make it possible.  I go over scales, so I know when Iím at capacity.  This rig gets used hard.  

I use standard transport DOT rated and certified strap winches, since I get DOT inspected, like used on any semi truck, welded to the trailer frame.  They are spaced every 4 feet for load securing requirements, and I have to replace the straps about every two years.  

The other big advantage of this setup is that it distributes the weight of load across the trailer I beams, directly to the bed frame.








YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wonít roll, its not a log; itís still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyíre burned, and you canít fix them.  Donít burn the cookies.

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2020, 07:14:13 PM »
The problem with little stakes is when they hold 2 tiers and you go for a 3rd, just resting the logs ontop in the notches of other logs.  Then one rolls away from you and over off the far side onto the ground.. Or fender.. Or a mailbox or car or dog or person.  Dont take it for granted that your containment will contain a stick of timber.
Its even worse when your loading one log extra at 13'6" and have roll one off. Been there done that. Just as dead rolling one over the top of 6x6 tubing at 13' as over top of 1.5"x3" channel at 5'. Probably deader and harder to get away from the higher load which is all that happens when you raise the height of bolsters.

The company using the short stakes with chains hauls around 50 million bf/ft a year mostly interstate and crosses no less than  20 state lines. Seems to work ok for them.

If your pulling a gooseneck with a CTL on it and feel the need to go more than 2 logs high then wondering if the standard will keep your log from rolling off probably is not your biggest worry.


Offline mike_belben

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2020, 07:36:10 PM »
Boys i dont mean to be a stickler about it and yellowhammer i think your bunks are excellent... I dont doubt them a bit. But the metal nerd in me is compelled to correct the statement that round tube is "stronger" than square. 

Look up modulus of elasticity and moment of inertia calcs for any structural material you want.  Size and wall thickness being equal, square tube is more rigid than round.  That is to say a HREW  3x3x.250 square tube has less deflection over the same unsupported span as a 3" x .250 wall round tube. 

A round tube however has much higher torsional load bearing properties, hence its superiority is driveshafting and power transmission.  You can also use the same calculations to consider the effect of thicker wall vs larger diameter in order to balance strength to weight ratio as well as cost.  Hint.. Big diameter thin wall is typically stronger and sometimes lighter than small diameter heavy wall.  One should use the largest diameter they can fit, and the minimum wall thickness that prevents localized denting.

Square standards are stronger than rounds.  But for fabrication purposes, they have yet to invent the square hole saw and plasma cutters cost a lot more than drill presses!
Revelation 3:20

Offline Banjo picker

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2020, 08:46:50 PM »
Great thread,  Doc my hats off to you for starting it, and Yellowhammer same to you for taking the time to document everything on your trailer.  I have been using white oak and a couple of metal standards I found on the road when working for Dot.  I plan on copying your design.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2020, 09:53:39 PM »
When setting the heights of the bunks, and having the advantage of being able to go over truck weigh scales, I kept adjusting bunk height until the logís centerline doesnít go over the top of the standards with a full but not overweight load.  

After awhile, I can pretty easily eyeball judge a full but not overweight load by where the logs sit relative to the top of the uprights.  Iíve also talked to more than one state trooper who says they make a decision to pull over a loaded truck based on how high the logs are stacked, and if any have a centerline above the top of the side support.  So being able to adjust and optimize the height of the supports with a cutoff saw helps get the load weight right, helps keeps the Trooper off my bumper, and also helps me resist the temptation to overload.

Also, I, like many use standard ďtruck friendlyĒ 42 inch wide pallets, in order to get two packs side by side on a flat bed without violating the rub rail space.  Unlike 48 inch wide packs loaded side by side, which completely take up an 8 foot bed and forces the tie down straps to be routed on the outside of the rub rails, which is a DOT law violation.  Rub rails are put on trailers so that if there is a sideswipe accident where the vehicle or object slides down the length and side of the trailer, (been there) then it canít cut the tie down straps and lose the load.  With the straps protected by the rub rails, then the straps will not get cut.  So always run the straps inside the rub rails, thatís why they were put there.  

All these are little things, but all are incorporated in the trailer design and intended to keep me from getting any more ďknee knockerĒ trucking tickets.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wonít roll, its not a log; itís still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyíre burned, and you canít fix them.  Donít burn the cookies.

Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2020, 11:24:52 PM »
Boys i dont mean to be a stickler about it and yellowhammer i think your bunks are excellent... I dont doubt them a bit. But the metal nerd in me is compelled to correct the statement that round tube is "stronger" than square.  

Look up modulus of elasticity and moment of inertia calcs for any structural material you want.  Size and wall thickness being equal, square tube is more rigid than round.  That is to say a HREW  3x3x.250 square tube has less deflection over the same unsupported span as a 3" x .250 wall round tube.  

A round tube however has much higher torsional load bearing properties, hence its superiority is driveshafting and power transmission.  You can also use the same calculations to consider the effect of thicker wall vs larger diameter in order to balance strength to weight ratio as well as cost.  Hint.. Big diameter thin wall is typically stronger and sometimes lighter than small diameter heavy wall.  One should use the largest diameter they can fit, and the minimum wall thickness that prevents localized denting.

Square standards are stronger than rounds.  But for fabrication purposes, they have yet to invent the square hole saw and plasma cutters cost a lot more than drill presses!
Some good insight Mike. But from my understanding round is pound for pound stronger than square

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2020, 04:17:11 AM »
And while we are busy spending Docs fabrication budget the first modification I would do to any vehicle hauling logs is build a substantial headache rack.

Objects at rest tend to stay at rest; while objects in motion tend to stay in motion.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2020, 06:07:17 AM »

Only in torsion loads like a driveshaft.  strictly by the pound youd have to be comparing a 6" exhaust pipe vs a 1" square 3/16 tube or something like that for round to be "stronger" than sq.  Hillbillies make standards out of water pipe because thats what they got.  Pitts makes them out of square because thats whats strongest at any cost.



If looking at same diameter and wall thickness [measuring the square across the flats] the square will be more rigid and the round will be lighter, naturally since a narrower coil was fed into the drawing die to make round tubes.


Diamond oriented square tubing is weaker also, you wouldnt want to turn standards or crossmembers 45 degrees, its stronger along the flats.  




Easiest way to eyeball it is put then both on cinder blocks and step on em.  


A piece of 6" exhaust pipe welded front to back down the center of a GN trailer will make a great torque tube and stop it from winding up.  But its not a very good log standard.  A 3" C channel is an excellent crossmember, a fair stake, and a horrible torque tube.


Just have to utilize each piece of metal to use its strength and avoid its weakness.  
for instance, angle iron would be the worlds worst torsion bar but Lord knows how crabby i get when i run out of it!

:D
Revelation 3:20

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2020, 07:40:23 AM »
Hereís  a closeup of the joint.  Since there is no way way to gusset the stud and also allow the side post sleeve to slide on and off, its important to assemble it as a submerged joint, as I mentioned earlier, and to cut a hole in the top of the square tubing in order to slide the round stock down into it and weld the bottom of the stud to the inside bottom of the square tubing, and even up the side.  Then passes are made to the top of the square tubing and there is no way for the welds to fail and the side posts to come off.  The metal would have to be ripped out of the pocket, weld or no weld.  At that point, set the assembly on the trailer, jig the down channel into the rub rail and final weld them.





Welding on the truckers winches, or even a winch slide rail, is also much the best way to strap loads.  These are extremely strong, much more so than any ratchet strap, and also much faster to use.  I prefer the weld on winches, they are so strong that I had a car head one sideswipe me a few years ago, and the multiple winches under the trailer frame cut through the car like chainsaw teeth, literally filleting it like a fish, the entire side of the car laying on the ground, and the winches were not even damaged.

There is a trick when welding winches, or anything else, on a tube trailer frame, especially since the trailer wiring is run in the same piece of metal.  If not careful when welding big, multi pass welds on a trailer frame, they will melt the trailer light wiring that is run inside the tubing.  So park the trailer slightly downhill, and run a garden hose into the forward end of the trailer frame (pop out the 2Ē round marker lights to get access to the inside of the tubing) and the water will run 25 feet inside the tube and exit out near the tail of the trailer.  The running water will keep the metal cool enough not melt the wiring and since there is no spillage on the ground, there is no chance of standing in a puddle of water when welding.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wonít roll, its not a log; itís still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyíre burned, and you canít fix them.  Donít burn the cookies.

Online doc henderson

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2020, 07:56:56 AM »
I have ratchet straps.  I originally got the J hooks, looks like the flat bar type is better for this type of rail.  the integrated winch straps look nice.  do you have a source for these.  or under frame pics of the attachment.  if you are in the area, can you just drop your trailer off so I can look at it?   :D :D :D   thanks for all the info.  any and all tips and tidbits are welcome!
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: goose neck into logging trailer
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2020, 11:41:26 AM »
Hereís  a closeup of the joint.  Since there is no way way to gusset the stud and also allow the side post sleeve to slide on and off, its important to assemble it as a submerged joint, as I mentioned earlier, and to cut a hole in the top of the square tubing in order to slide the round stock down into it and weld the bottom of the stud to the inside bottom of the square tubing, and even up the side.  Then passes are made to the top of the square tubing and there is no way for the welds to fail and the side posts to come off.  The metal would have to be ripped out of the pocket, weld or no weld.  At that point, set the assembly on the trailer, jig the down channel into the rub rail and final weld them.


(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)


Welding on the truckers winches, or even a winch slide rail, is also much the best way to strap loads.  These are extremely strong, much more so than any ratchet strap, and also much faster to use.  I prefer the weld on winches, they are so strong that I had a car head one sideswipe me a few years ago, and the multiple winches under the trailer frame cut through the car like chainsaw teeth, literally filleting it like a fish, the entire side of the car laying on the ground, and the winches were not even damaged.

There is a trick when welding winches, or anything else, on a tube trailer frame, especially since the trailer wiring is run in the same piece of metal.  If not careful when welding big, multi pass welds on a trailer frame, they will melt the trailer light wiring that is run inside the tubing.  So park the trailer slightly downhill, and run a garden hose into the forward end of the trailer frame (pop out the 2Ē round marker lights to get access to the inside of the tubing) and the water will run 25 feet inside the tube and exit out near the tail of the trailer.  The running water will keep the metal cool enough not melt the wiring and since there is no spillage on the ground, there is no chance of standing in a puddle of water when welding.  
It doesnít get much better than YellowHammers system........


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