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Author Topic: European machine.  (Read 2453 times)

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Online Crusarius

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2020, 10:35:44 AM »
What I'm I missing here ?. .
.....
Bruno; you're not missing a Dang thing.
Everyone loves the Euro machine.
It's unanimous.
Another question might be: why isn't a machine like this being built; or sold, over here in N. America?
If I had to guess I would say 100% emissions issues! Gotta love the EPA.

Offline eiche

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2020, 11:28:16 AM »
I am up in Alaska Fairbanks up.here it's a problem to get what you want so you need to do a lot by your self the crane was from a maintenance truck I modified it I would love to find a second one right now I use it on self made trailer to get the logs home to the sawmill. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Online teakwood

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2020, 12:13:25 PM »
that's great eiche, are you from Germany? or german speaking? i'm swiss

nice skidder and fab work, i definitively want something like that in the future, remote winch and crane on a skidder, euro style. I just don't see me spending 160k on a used 8000hour machine like Welte, HSM,..
But i could see me buying an older skidder and adapt all the stuff
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

Offline Skeans1

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2020, 01:09:48 PM »
@teakwood 
Why not find a swinging grapple setup from North America? The only thing they donít have is the remote winch but most do have a winch.

Online Crusarius

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2020, 02:02:27 PM »
EICHE, that is one beautiful trailer. Looks extremely functional.

I am guessing the black section in the frame is an extension you put on?

Offline tule peak timber

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2020, 03:04:41 PM »
Looking good. Welcome to the FF. Where are you located ?
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Offline Satamax

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2020, 03:24:10 PM »
Nice trailer! 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline barbender

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2020, 04:04:20 PM »
Skeans I think an American style swinging grapple would be pretty limited compared to the forwarder style Euro set up.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline nativewolf

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2020, 04:33:40 PM »
What I'm I missing here ?. .
.....
Bruno; you're not missing a Dang thing.
Everyone loves the Euro machine.
It's unanimous.
Another question might be: why isn't a machine like this being built; or sold, over here in N. America?
If I had to guess I would say 100% emissions issues! Gotta love the EPA.
I don't think an epa issue at all, EU emissions are now just as strict.  Now liability, parts and service network, etc.  Yes those are issues.  I would be very surprised if whatever engine is in that german skidder is tier 5 compliant and already tested for the US.
Kiko has the correct guess I'd think.  Stupid operators that seem to live to wreck things and hurt themselves are a pain in the rear end to support.  You'd have to roll out a support network in a country that until recently had a very dense and competitive forest equipment base already.  

We've seen 4 makers go under/bought in the last 15 years and now cat is out.  That leaves JD and TC.  Not much choice and maybe today someone could make headway if they had $20mln to buildout a support network and last through initial sales.  That's tough though, just look at the CTL business where Rottne has not been able to penetrate the US nor other EU entities.  Really Ponsse is the only successful entity from the EU in NA forest sales.  
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2020, 05:27:37 PM »
I had a good look through the european offerings a while back. I was pretty impressed with the Welte.

Everyone wants to blame all the EPA restrictions but.... thats really got little to do with it. You take an existing engine that has tier whatever approval and put it in a machine - it's not that hard.

The real issues lie around productivity. Small machines can't pull enough a day to pay so nobody is buying them new so nobody is building them. Everything is geared to plantations because mechanical harvester with a processor head and a forwarder is the cheapest way to get tons on a landing there, And the big machines just keep on getting bigger and bigger.

I had a 648 dual arch on hire just recently while my own skidder was down. Man that thing could pull some wood. But without the wood bunched and because of its width in a pretty tight selective cut.... it wasn't actually shifting any more wood a day or so cheap as my little old 666 could on a short <500m skid. It needed a harvester in front of it to bunch.... little old 666 can duck and weave through the trees quick. And today a 648 is a "little" skidder.

I did like that Welte. I just can't see how I can pull enough tons a year to make it profitable. And the smaller euro stuff isn't really built for Australian Hardwood.... its small aimed at softwood bunches.... not small aimed at big singles that weigh 1Ĺ ton to the cube wet. 
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2020, 06:56:20 PM »
Yep LL, you bring up another good point.  That 666 is an old Clark?  It's the same HP as the larger Welte?  I'd imagine it would be a good replacement, maybe more production due to less breakdowns.  BUT...that $$$$$$$$

Eventually all the old Clarks, Franklins, Cats, JDs, Timberjacks, etc will cease to function or be bought up and demolished.  Then where will we hardwood guys be?  I'd love to have a cable skidder to work in conjunction with the forwarder.  However, I don't like old equipment and as you say the new machine payments..whew...

What's a poor hardwood sawtimber guy to do.
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Online snowstorm

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2020, 07:36:15 PM »
What I'm I missing here ?. .
.....
Bruno; you're not missing a Dang thing.
Everyone loves the Euro machine.
It's unanimous.
Another question might be: why isn't a machine like this being built; or sold, over here in N. America?
If I had to guess I would say 100% emissions issues! Gotta love the EPA.
I don't think an epa issue at all, EU emissions are now just as strict.  Now liability, parts and service network, etc.  Yes those are issues.  I would be very surprised if whatever engine is in that german skidder is tier 5 compliant and already tested for the US.
Kiko has the correct guess I'd think.  Stupid operators that seem to live to wreck things and hurt themselves are a pain in the rear end to support.  You'd have to roll out a support network in a country that until recently had a very dense and competitive forest equipment base already.  

We've seen 4 makers go under/bought in the last 15 years and now cat is out.  That leaves JD and TC.  Not much choice and maybe today someone could make headway if they had $20mln to buildout a support network and last through initial sales.  That's tough though, just look at the CTL business where Rottne has not been able to penetrate the US nor other EU entities.  Really Ponsse is the only successful entity from the EU in NA forest sales.  
where do you come up with this??rottne dosent have any machines here? oh yes they do. a few yrs back they did close the factory store in pa. lucky for me and others there tech \ sales guy is now with the dealer in maine. and he will always talk you threw the problem on the phone. quadco in longview is the same. try that with some dealers and all you hear is bring in here. rottne in nb is the same anything to help over the phone. now the cat dealer is selling logset. i know they did sell 1 new forwarder. within 50 miles there are dealers for rottne komatsu deere ponsse tiger cat logset and barco

Offline Skeans1

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2020, 10:16:14 PM »
Skeans I think an American style swinging grapple would be pretty limited compared to the forwarder style Euro set up.
I wouldnít say that they can do all the same things but itís also a lot stouter a good operator can pile with one just like the euro setups.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2020, 10:53:46 PM »
What I'm I missing here ?. .
.....
Bruno; you're not missing a Dang thing.
Everyone loves the Euro machine.
It's unanimous.
Another question might be: why isn't a machine like this being built; or sold, over here in N. America?
If I had to guess I would say 100% emissions issues! Gotta love the EPA.
I don't think an epa issue at all, EU emissions are now just as strict.  Now liability, parts and service network, etc.  Yes those are issues.  I would be very surprised if whatever engine is in that german skidder is tier 5 compliant and already tested for the US.
Kiko has the correct guess I'd think.  Stupid operators that seem to live to wreck things and hurt themselves are a pain in the rear end to support.  You'd have to roll out a support network in a country that until recently had a very dense and competitive forest equipment base already.  

We've seen 4 makers go under/bought in the last 15 years and now cat is out.  That leaves JD and TC.  Not much choice and maybe today someone could make headway if they had $20mln to buildout a support network and last through initial sales.  That's tough though, just look at the CTL business where Rottne has not been able to penetrate the US nor other EU entities.  Really Ponsse is the only successful entity from the EU in NA forest sales.  
where do you come up with this??rottne dosent have any machines here? oh yes they do. a few yrs back they did close the factory store in pa. lucky for me and others there tech \ sales guy is now with the dealer in maine. and he will always talk you threw the problem on the phone. quadco in longview is the same. try that with some dealers and all you hear is bring in here. rottne in nb is the same anything to help over the phone. now the cat dealer is selling logset. i know they did sell 1 new forwarder. within 50 miles there are dealers for rottne komatsu deere ponsse tiger cat logset and barco
Sure, Rottne has a few machines in the US, less than 200 I'd guess - after 20 years.  That's the problem from my seat.  I could see them pretty much abandon the US.  They are selling maybe 40 forwarders a year in Sweeden, probably double that in Russia last year.  Russia bought just about every piece of CTL equipment that could get produced the last 3 years (due to Trump tarrifs China turned to Russia for wood).  It is a nice little equipment company.  But they invented CTL and still are having a hard time getting market share in the US.  And Rottne makes a great machine by all accounts.  They just can't get scale going.  There is a new 2019 harvester in Michigan with no takers all of last year.  Ponsse has a 3 month waiting list for a bear.  At some point markets end up with a handful of players and in CTL in the US it is Komatsu, Ponsse, and JD.  Logset, Rottne, tigercat, and others have products but they are fighting for 4th or lower everywhere (in Rottne's home country they have 4th nailed down and are fighting for 3rd).  

Tigercat is the last player to break into the skidder market.  Launched in mid late 90s.  I was overseas then so I returned to a new player in town.  It was heavily backed and they picked some smart partners in the US for dealers.  They thrived as Franklin, Clark, pettibone, et al failed.  Either in the 80s contraction or in the 2000s failures.  

Barko is a good example of a company that could get into skidders.  Good reputation in loaders and they make feller bunchers (no idea how good they are).  Some network already there.  Owned by Heico, Barko is in the Pettibone group; one of several groups.  Only problem is Heico is huge in aviation and that industry has just been whacked.  Whacked.  Not sure there is any $ to invest in Pettibone/Barko.  They tried making a forwarder.  Haven't seen many for sale and the one I've seen was small - like good for thinning but could not handle our hardwoods.  Not sure why they would have picked that products size for a new line.  

I'd stand by my statement that skidders are a 2 person show in the US.  JD and Tigercat.  They are both offering big... really big and very expensive.  Machine size in 1997 went from a tc 630 of 32k pounds and $175k to a modern tc of 25 tons and $400k+.  Not something we don't all know but it leaves those looking for a modern (ish) small/mid sized skidder out in the cold.

If someone could offer a 10 year note to a logger for a new EU style skidder with reasonable payments I think they would do well.  To do that you'd have to have really deep pockets, some ability to build & sustain a dealer network or develop your own footprint.  Barko  is one I thought could do it but that parent company makes me think the whole pettibone group would be sold off rather than invest in a new line.  Especially after what I see to be a weak CTL product that was not in sync with the other Barko offerings that were whole tree.  Barko is screaming for a skidder.  Heico could certainly buy Welte or others.  Who knows.  Anyway I think for someone to break into skidders in the US with a small machine means a real commitment.  I don't see any interest from TC or JD in going small. 
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Online Southside

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2020, 11:13:37 PM »
In the end it all boils down to what manufacturer will finance their machines, and I don't anyone offering a 10 year note on a piece of forestry, construction, or Ag equipment, they would have to offer the warranty for just as long.  
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Offline Satamax

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2020, 01:59:26 AM »
I had a good look through the european offerings a while back. I was pretty impressed with the Welte.

Everyone wants to blame all the EPA restrictions but.... thats really got little to do with it. You take an existing engine that has tier whatever approval and put it in a machine - it's not that hard.

The real issues lie around productivity. Small machines can't pull enough a day to pay so nobody is buying them new so nobody is building them. Everything is geared to plantations because mechanical harvester with a processor head and a forwarder is the cheapest way to get tons on a landing there, And the big machines just keep on getting bigger and bigger.

I had a 648 dual arch on hire just recently while my own skidder was down. Man that thing could pull some wood. But without the wood bunched and because of its width in a pretty tight selective cut.... it wasn't actually shifting any more wood a day or so cheap as my little old 666 could on a short <500m skid. It needed a harvester in front of it to bunch.... little old 666 can duck and weave through the trees quick. And today a 648 is a "little" skidder.

I did like that Welte. I just can't see how I can pull enough tons a year to make it profitable. And the smaller euro stuff isn't really built for Australian Hardwood.... its small aimed at softwood bunches.... not small aimed at big singles that weigh 1Ĺ ton to the cube wet.
Longtime Lurker. I think  you don't see the European machines as i do.  Most of our forest are not managed for clear cuts. Would it be softwood or hardwood. Except in some parts of scandinavia, few places in UK, few places in Germany, and the big problem of Romania. You rarely see a clear cut. Most of our logging is selective cutting. So big machines don't fit. But any of the makers can make monsters, if needed. There is another detail, Europe, at least the western part, is heavily populated, so you're never far from a road.  So the skidders don't pull for miles. They bring the logs to the edge of the road, bunch by truckload; and the truck comes, and loads itself. I rarely see a log truck without a crane. And i live in the alps. Where the roads aren't flat. The guys are not afraid, 6x6 semi tractors, and live dolly trailers. That's the way they work over here. That otmar noe machine that i showed, if a big one for here. One thing is true, the wood we have is not as heavy as yours, but big oaks, can easily do 900 1000 kg per cube, wet. Mind you, if the guys are pulling nice oak of big dimensions, they are extremely careful with it.  As it's either cabinetmaking wood, or cask wood, for staves. And that we're not joking about  ;D 
Here is the biggest french machine, made for western Africa. I heard that there is some still running over there. Built in the seventies! :D 
http://www.avant-train-latil.com/T10.php
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2020, 03:54:23 AM »
Yep LL, you bring up another good point.  That 666 is an old Clark?  It's the same HP as the larger Welte?  I'd imagine it would be a good replacement, maybe more production due to less breakdowns.  BUT...that $$$$$$$$

Eventually all the old Clarks, Franklins, Cats, JDs, Timberjacks, etc will cease to function or be bought up and demolished.  Then where will we hardwood guys be?  I'd love to have a cable skidder to work in conjunction with the forwarder.  However, I don't like old equipment and as you say the new machine payments..whew...

What's a poor hardwood sawtimber guy to do.
There's old, and there's "old."

I like Clark's because they have that boat frame design which is built like the proverbial brick outhouse... strongest frame in the business.Mine is old, but not "old".

Engine/converter radiator 2500 HRS off full out of chassis reco, hitch got done when we bought it 3500 HRS ago, pumps/hoses/rams (rams changed to Cat type seals) about 200 HRS back, winch overhaul probably 1000 HRS back. She's home with a broken rear axle and it will be totally rebuilt before going back to work.
There's a leak on the tranny guess what happens there this wet season?

I've owned this machine 6 years... it's newer than when I got it. The broken axle was me doing something dumb, but I'd throw the old doll into a full year contract without a second thought.

I just buy equipment with good bones and good parts availability and proceed to fix them one component at a time... And when something needs fixing we do it properly. Run them for the year let them make some $, then spend $ where it needs spending. My D8K has 33000 hours on the frame from new... I got it in 97 with 13095 hrs... I'd put money down on her being in better shape than a lot of machines half her age, but 40k is about the frame design limit... metal fatigue gets them. Skidders are the same... It's not age that kills them it's lack of scheduled maintenance.

I'm after a 667 grapple now... I'm.sick of rolling around on the ground with chokes and the 666 while a great machine isn't quite big enough to carry a grapple with my logs.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline DPrest

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2020, 04:50:54 AM »
Enjoying this thread... I saw the new Tigercat 602 in Bangor last spring. . I remember the rep quoting $230,000 USD to me at the time set up as seen in the video (single drum winch). We don't have any nice hardwood log stands, so I don't really understand the economics of working in quality hardwood. Its hard to see how a payment like this could work in firewood stands... Would any of you hardwood guys who do selective logging in quality log stands be able to comment on the viability of a smaller skidder at this price point? The size seems appropriate, and the winch remote is a real advantage.
Trees keep me sane.

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2020, 05:53:45 AM »
The economics are really variable I think, and depend a lot on markets, species etc.  Thing to remember is you don't have to pay it all off at once, finance smart and you'll be able to spread payments over a decade easily by refining the residual a couple of times. I did the math a while ago and 3 years 70% residual, 3 years and a 50% residual, 5 years and a 30% residual etc etc... Payments were actually lower than with a 10 year old machine you couldn't get the same residual amounts on due to age.

A lot depends on your access to veneer logs and having markets for everything. On the numbers here there's not one contractor in the state could pay off a new machine cutting for the major sawmills in their stands of timber... they don't pay much more than survival money. Contrast that with my preferred contractor who controls where his logs go... He gets the veneer premium not the mill, I take sawlog, he offloads salvage somewhere else... guys got a decent skidder and a 45 ton harvester under finance and if some Chinaman hadn't eaten a bat he'd be doing ok.

Gotta keep them working and pricing in the maintenance is important... lot of guys go under with equipment from failing to put money aside for every hour worked from day 1
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: European machine.
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2020, 07:29:26 AM »
In the end it all boils down to what manufacturer will finance their machines, and I don't anyone offering a 10 year note on a piece of forestry, construction, or Ag equipment, they would have to offer the warranty for just as long.  
Yep-agree with all of that. LL has a good point below on the financing.  Interesting that the mills there are also keeping loggers broke.  I've had several meetings with mill owners in VA, interviewed a couple.  Was offered owner financing to take over a mid sized super super clean mill- (@southside - give me a call, it might interest you).  My conclusion is loggers are kept on survival $.   I don't see how they make a profit based on what the mills paying.  We keep control of the wood (per LLs comments) and are looking for more control, we'll see.  
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