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Author Topic: Well, i went mad.  (Read 4143 times)

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Offline Satamax

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Well, i went mad.
« on: July 30, 2020, 03:17:28 PM »
Bored to borrow the splitter from a friend, i just bought one of those. 

But an electric one. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline sprucebunny

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2020, 04:26:42 PM »
Nice !  8)
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2020, 06:53:45 PM »
Awesome!
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls Riehl Steel edger,F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2020, 07:08:40 PM »
Mighty nice!!!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2020, 11:28:21 PM »
Best bit, i got it cheap, ish. 

Well, i bought it sight unseen. But the plan is to add wheels or put it on my trailer, tow it behind my new truck tractor thingy.  And bypass the electrics, when operating away from my workshop. Running it from the tractor's hydraulics. 

Offer a splitting service to people. May be. Thought It is mostly for my own firewood. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline g_man

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2020, 10:23:48 AM »
That looks like a very good system. Hope you have good luck with it. I am wondering when you run it on electric what kind of power source do you need. Volts, amps, watts ??

gg

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2020, 11:44:55 AM »
380/415 v 50hz, 15k watts. 

Pushed by this. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline g_man

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2020, 11:57:19 AM »
thanks. I figured you would need something serious.

gg

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2020, 02:34:23 PM »
Small volvo?  Almost looks like 6BT but exhaust on wrong side i think.. Pump looks bosch-ish 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2020, 06:11:39 PM »
Small volvo?  Almost looks like 6BT but exhaust on wrong side i think.. Pump looks bosch-ish
11 something liters, 144kw output of the alternator. IIRC, it's named 6DT or something like that. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2020, 10:15:21 PM »
Is there an equivalent of the swiss  Oekotubes in France or Italy?

https://oekosolve.ch/en/products/oekotube/

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2020, 11:55:27 PM »
 It looks like a nice machine, diff to see how the European stuff is compared to here. Why the short lengths, cook stoves ? 

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 03:15:46 AM »
Is there an equivalent of the swiss  Oekotubes in France or Italy?

https://oekosolve.ch/en/products/oekotube/
Well, on big incineration plants, there is electrostatic precipitators.   For small household heating, i've never heard of anywhere needing those. 
It looks like a nice machine, diff to see how the European stuff is compared to here. Why the short lengths, cook stoves ?
Bargemonkey, small cook stoves, but also small stoves, or even small mass heaters. The outside boiler, is something absolutely unknown here. And our houses usually average at 1000, 1500 sqft. May be 2000. 
More and more, you see modern vertical stoves in houses. 
  http://www.supra.fr/famille-gamme-supra/les-poeles-a-bois/
Mind you, in france, what was the mainstream stove for years, is "the godin" 
https://www.google.fr/search?q=poele+%22le+petit+godin%22&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjmouueuPnqAhVT04UKHXTDBgAQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=poele+%22le+petit+godin%22&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1CxXFidaWCGcWgAcAB4AIABRogBgwOSAQE2mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=9hMlX-bPGdOmlwT0hhs&bih=616&biw=1280
That doesn't take big logs either. 
But that machine can do up to 60 cm, that's about 24 inches. 
Well, for me, that's a hobby machine. Kind of. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Sawyerfortyish

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 10:10:36 AM »
Looks pretty nice I have been running a Multitek wood processor about 25 years. In thinking about this I dont see a advantage of the electric over diesel when you need a big gen set like that to run it. My processor runs all day on about 5 gal of fuel. That gen set will burn that in an hour or two. The noise may be more but you can park the gen set further away to limit the noise. Don't mean to sound like i'm putting this down I'm not. Just saying it will cost more to run generating the power. I like the idea of electric no playing around in the cold to get a diesel started no messing around with fuel just flip a switch and go. 

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 11:51:19 AM »
Sawyerfortyish, no worries. I already had the gen set for the sawmill. It's huge, compared to the 66kw i would need to start the saw straight in delta position. The main thing is, i got the gen set with 401 hours, for 1500. I resold my old 80kw, unreliable GM 6.71 1944 gen set, for the double of what i had in it originally. And that nearly paid for the new one. Same with this machine,  i won't say it was dead cheap. But it was only a thousand euros more than i was willing to pay for a much smaller machine last year, so i said to myself, go for it. And i might be able to run it on the workshop's power. As i have 15kw power, and the splitter has a 15kw star delta startup too. So i might be ok. Not having to run the gen set. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2020, 11:53:19 AM »
Mind you, with an awake offbearer, i could run the two together, and chuck the slabs straight in there! :D 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2020, 01:48:39 PM »
If amazon sold those we could all be rich!
Revelation 3:20

Offline Cruiser_79

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2020, 02:33:25 AM »
That's a nice machine! Looks good with the circular saw, most of the saw/split machines have chains I thought. Are you selling firewood or do you saw and split for others per hour?
It might be an idea to have a small PTO driven generator on your tractor. Does it have a PTO?
They are much cheaper and smaller than a diesel driven generator. Lot of dairy farms use them in case the power shuts down. They run on the 540 rpm shaft, so it won't work on a front PTO I guess. And the rotation direction in the front is differen.



Edit; Didn't see that you posted the picture of your generator yourself  :D Looks like you have plenty of power for your unit!


Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2020, 12:36:07 AM »
Hi Cruiser_79.

Well, i have plenty of power for sure. But not mobile. I have found a PTO gen set, 50kva, but too expensive. I think i'll go the hydraulic route. Since i have plenty of hydraulics on this thing

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Cruiser_79

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2020, 04:23:28 PM »
With hydraulics your more free to find a place for your generator as well. You could place a dynaset like generator under the truck bed for example. But you will need a big hydraulic tank or an oil cooler to run a serious hydraulic driven generator. At my brothers company we have a hook lift workshop with a hydraulic driven generator. Works fine, I think it is 15 kVA or something like that. 

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2020, 04:49:04 PM »
I won't go hydraulic, to electric, then electric back to hydraulics. 

Hydraulic  to hydraulic is  far cleverer. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Cruiser_79

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2020, 04:27:16 AM »
I won't go hydraulic, to electric, then electric back to hydraulics.

Hydraulic  to hydraulic is  far cleverer.
That's certainly true! But depends on what you are going to do else with your truck. I would like to make my edger, sawmill and slabber mobile, and then it would be nice to have electric power on site. 
Do you have pictures of your palax? What diameter can you cut maximum? 

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2020, 06:36:51 AM »
I don't have a pic of it yet. It's on the trailer. In front of the house. 

Just check that.   https://www.palax.fi/sites/default/files/instruction-manual-palax-power-100-1-2017-EN.pdf

They say 40cm diameter.   Well, my sawmill will never be mobile. And adding electric gen set to the truck is too expensive. 2000 for a 540rpm second hand 50 kva gen set. Which i would have to adapt to the truck, which means, removing the multiplier, getting a ZF TO with an output flange. Finding what i need in terms of linkage. Support etc. Easier to just fit another hyd pump. If the worse comes. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Cruiser_79

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2020, 04:25:38 PM »
I don't have a pic of it yet. It's on the trailer. In front of the house.

Just check that.   https://www.palax.fi/sites/default/files/instruction-manual-palax-power-100-1-2017-EN.pdf

They say 40cm diameter.   Well, my sawmill will never be mobile. And adding electric gen set to the truck is too expensive. 2000 for a 540rpm second hand 50 kva gen set. Which i would have to adapt to the truck, which means, removing the multiplier, getting a ZF TO with an output flange. Finding what i need in terms of linkage. Support etc. Easier to just fit another hyd pump. If the worse comes.
Looks good in the brochure! I like the adjustable wedge height and the circular saw. But your processor is electric drive and you are going to convert it to hydraulic? Do you have that much discplacement and pressure on your Brimont truck? I really have no idea of the hydraulic capacity of that truck, I know the stock Unimogs don't have that much liters, about 50 liters/minute. 


Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2020, 05:07:29 AM »
Well, theoretically, i have 50 liters at 160 bars. Per the brimont brochure. But i'm not sure, i might have more. as it's a twin pump. Otherwise, i can always fit a hydraulic pump to the ZF gearbox. 

And about the palax, it's simple.

I have two numbers,15kw and 210 bars maximum.

15 x 600 = 9000  

9000/210 = 42.86 liter per minute.

Based on the hydraulic power formula.   https://www.berendsen.com.au/hydraulic-system-design/engineering-and-design/hydraulic-formulas/

I need to test my pressure on the brimont, and my flow.

But i think this could be doable.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Cruiser_79

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2020, 02:01:32 AM »
Well, theoretically, i have 50 liters at 160 bars. Per the brimont brochure. But i'm not sure, i might have more. as it's a twin pump. Otherwise, i can always fit a hydraulic pump to the ZF gearbox.

And about the palax, it's simple.

I have two numbers,15kw and 210 bars maximum.

15 x 600 = 9000  

9000/210 = 42.86 liter per minute.

Based on the hydraulic power formula.   https://www.berendsen.com.au/hydraulic-system-design/engineering-and-design/hydraulic-formulas/

I need to test my pressure on the brimont, and my flow.

But i think this could be doable.
The 600 is without losses, but indeed it should be doable. And probably the electric drive is a bit overkill so it won't exactly needs 15 kW. And not all the hydraulics work exactly at the same time I assume. 
Is there a oil cooler in your hydraulic circuit? 
Do you see those Brimonts more in france? I've never seen them before. There are some Bremachs around here but still very rare. 

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2020, 03:20:08 AM »
Hi Cruiser. 

Well, the brimonts are rare as hen't teeth. Well, there is two like mine, and one of the newer model for sale on Leboncoin, a French equivalent of marktplaats or 2ememain.be. 

But they are old now, and rare.  It's far bigger than a Bremach. Bigger than a lot of unimogs. I don't have a cooling circuit on the hydraulics. Well, for the moment, i should make it function well. And i'll see what i can do for next year. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2020, 04:23:08 PM »
Well, all my plans were pipe dreams.

The saw is not hydraulically driven, but direct belt drive. So i need a new generator, if i want to use it off site.

Back to step one, PTO and PTO gen set  :-\   :(

Tried it last Friday, on the big generator. No prob, or nearly. We stuck the blade in a log. I think the length stop doesn't work well.  Tried it today, on the mains, 15kw for 15kw power supply. Ney working! Starts, and trips the main breaker, even with the soft starter (sikostart iirc) 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2020, 03:14:02 PM »
So, my blade needs sharpening. 











The depth stop doesn't function, 

The log clamp hasn't got any strength. But i still can do my firewood. I might have half a cord, or a smidge less of already well dried logs, cut to length. Some 4" to 8" trunks which might dry fast enough. And some huge 15 to 18, some which are too big for the processor. Will cut in 1 meter, and split on the 32 tons table splitter of a friend, i think. Or chuck these on the saw, and split down the middle with it. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Cruiser_79

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2020, 02:11:37 AM »
That looks good! Quite a nasty blade, what diameter is it? The log is transported by the belt isn't it? Does that work well or does it slip easily? 

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2020, 03:48:33 AM »
So far, it seems to function all right. It's all rubber.And doesn't slip much on  the bark anyway. But i haven't fed it long long pieces. They say 4 meters maximum. The blade is 100cm. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2020, 05:53:22 PM »
I'm low tonight. 

The length stop doesn't work. I've known that since the first try. I have bought the machine sight unseen. On a gamble. 

Spoke with a local, ish business who used to sell those. And the workshop guy, told me to take appart the ball valve which gets touched by the saw's arm, when it gets back up. I did  clean it and repair it. Some idiot had "deactivated" the spring. By reversing the washer which actuates the rod. 

But that didn't fix the problem! :( 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2020, 07:51:13 PM »
with your skills I am sure you will get it working, don't get discouraged.  

We had cleaned and painted our Ponsse Elephant, a few issues that require a service truck.  However in cleaning the serivce bay under the bunks we removed so much dirt and trash that a broken brace and bearing (bearing should have bolted to a brace that is welded to bunk) were free, we thought it an odd look when we were cleaning but what did we know.  Today we move it a couple of feet and here a slamming sound, the drive shaft was now free to whirl around, nothing holding it in place.  We have a welder coming in the morning and it will be ok by lunch.  Long story just to say these things happen, you'll get it fixed!
Liking Walnut

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2020, 08:16:42 PM »
Im curious how they designed this thing now.  Whats the ball valve do?
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2020, 02:39:32 AM »
Im curious how they designed this thing now.  Whats the ball valve do?
Thanks guys. 
Mike, i call that a ball valve, but what do i know. I'm an hydraulics novice. 
Basically, when the arm which bears the saw goes back up after the cut, there's another "thing" which starts the splitting. And there should be this one, which pushes the length stop back into position. I'm waiting for the hydraulic schematic. There is other things which don't work, that i don't care of.  But this one i'm fussy about. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2020, 02:41:28 AM »
The thing is visible on the video, on the first page, at around 30s. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2020, 08:04:34 AM »
I dont see it. Link please.
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2020, 09:45:22 AM »
Here Mike

Palax Power 100s Firewood Processor cutting up logs - YouTube

At thirty seconds or thereabouts. 

I received the hydraulic manual. I wasn't touching the right valve. I'll see how it goes tonight. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2020, 09:52:48 AM »
Sorry max, but all i see is a safety shield.  

Post up the schematics, pics, vids, horoscope, weather report and detailed gripe sheet when u can and lets get this thing fixed.  
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Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2020, 11:42:41 PM »
I dont see it. Link please.

At 0.30 you can get a quick glimpse of the log stop moving forward. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline GRANITEstateMP

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2020, 09:16:56 AM »
Satamax,

is the hydro log stop a necessity to get the machine to function? or is it just to get uniform length pieces?
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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2020, 04:19:01 PM »
Satamax,

is the hydro log stop a necessity to get the machine to function? or is it just to get uniform length pieces?
Hi GranitesateMP. Well, it's to get uniform length pieces, but also, so that the pieces fall down in the right position. Basically, what happens, is when the saw cuts a piece of log, the stop retracts 3 cm ( a smidge more than an inch) And when the log falls; with this stop, the log can't fall on it's end. If the log falls on it's end, and the splitter being automatic, it just jams the cross grain log onto the wedge. Meaning that i have to remove the log from the wedge with a club hammer. Position it right.  And start a splitting movement again. Not much of a problem. But that wastes some time. And if the logs are crooked much. This happens quite often. Plus, this controls the log clamp too. So i can't apply downwards pressure on the last bit, to cut it to the right length. And this sometimes jams the saw. I can use the machine. But not up to it's full potential. 
Hope this clarifies the situation i'm in. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline GRANITEstateMP

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2020, 08:40:54 PM »
thanks Satamax, that helps. 

My machine is your machines little cousin!  On the Hakki Pilki machines, a lot of the moving parts are mechanical linkages. My log stop is mechanical, as you pull the saw down through the log, the stop pivots on an offset cam.  That would allow you to still have uniform cuts, not pinch the blade, and the stop can help keep the rounds falling square into the split chamber. That's easier said than done you got that big spinning saw, I don't! Not sure how that will effect you log clamp, one problem at a time.

Another thing we've found that helps keep the rounds squre when falling into the chamber is cutting longer length rounds. Anything under 15in long we tend to have more pieces fall awkwardly.  Hope that helps some. If you can maybe look up the parts or service manual for a Hikki Pilki 1x37 maybe it'll give ya an idea???
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Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2020, 02:43:24 PM »
Dang, another problem appeared.

The linkage between hydraulic motor, and chain sprockets at the bottom of outfeed conveyor is making bad clonking

Well, this message took a while to write.

And I think it's fixed. The  bolt used as shear pin was broken.

Hope this gets better. Untested soo far. Didn't want to start the gen set. At 7pm.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2020, 06:04:02 PM »
Next thing, the depth stop valve is shabby. 



The thing highlighted above has broken. A friend reckons this is a pressure relief valve. It's leaking badly. 

Anybody knows what the whole valve might be called, if ever i need to source it elsewhere. 

Thanks a lot guys. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2020, 12:13:47 AM »
Not a setup i recognize but it looks like a cartridge style relief valve.  It probably has O rings thatve failed. 
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2020, 03:37:44 AM »
Hi Mike.

Well, the very end bit has broken.

Got the quote this morning. 272 for the whole part, shipped taxes included.  smiley_cry
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2020, 01:00:43 PM »
The dead part. A pressure limiter. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2020, 11:39:16 AM »
Repaired the limiter my way. 



 

Found the parts that I lost in the grass. 



 

But I don't know which way these go.  :'(

Brass piston as first limiter, with the spring loading it? 

Found the same valve on the net. But it doesn't tell me anything about the way it goes. https://www.google.fr/search?q=hydraulic+yf08-09+sun&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwijqpT_79nrAhXa_IUKHeD4C-oQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=hydraulic+yf08-09+sun&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQDFCJ0gNY59gDYIviA2gAcAB4AIAB-AGIAcICkgEFMS4wLjGYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=U6NXX-O0D9r5lwTg8a_QDg&bih=648&biw=360&prmd=sivn
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2020, 11:43:03 AM »
I dont know the answer max but you need to be VERY, VERY CAREFUL.  If thats the main system relief and you bungle it up an explosion of some component will result.  Shrapnel and fluid injections can lead to amputation .. Or heaven forbid, even cremation.


Call the machine or component manufacturer and ask for tech dept. If they dont know the order ask for a PDF on the valve.  Or find part number on the valve and google it with .pdf included. 
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2020, 12:29:20 PM »
This is not the main valve. But the 100 bar limiter for the hydraulic cylinder. 



 

 



There is wear marks on both parts. So i gonna reassemble as shown above. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2020, 01:43:25 PM »
Still does'ne work. It's doing my head in. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2020, 02:03:48 PM »
Discovered something. 

My valve, affixed to the frame. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2020, 02:09:40 PM »
And the same in picture, on the manual, with three hoses on the bottom. 

I'll have to check where the other one is! 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2020, 02:57:30 PM »
Okay, youve got a serious schematic up.  

1. What is the machine doing that it shouldnt or not doing that it should?

2. What component numbers from that schematic do you think are involved?

3. What reference number is the valve that you posted. 


Want to help you but still flying blind here.  
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2020, 03:47:04 PM »
Mike, it's the valve 12 and 15.  And the cylinder 7. 

The later should come forward towards the saw, before cutting, and when sawing, it should back up, to avoid pinching the  saw, when the log falls. 

And it doesn't. 

What I see on number 12 valve,  the middle input port does nothing.  And the plug is on the side. 

The guy which fiddled with it had really no clue! I think.b
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2020, 10:55:54 PM »
Well... In the prior owners defense this hydraulic schematic is making me think its a german machine.  Incredibly complex and expensive way to make a glorified wood splitter.

I have about a hundred questions that can probably only be answered by reading the manufacturer's theory of operations to understand the sequence and actuation of it all. 


I cant quite read all the numbers.  4 separate pump sections?  What drives it/them? electric motor?  Is the saw spinning as soon as you turn it on?  Does it stay spinning or power up and brake to a stop with every cut?  If not, what does the brake cylinder do?  #14.  What about the conveyor safety valve 11?

It looks like the blue pump circuit has a 100bar primary relief teed just after the pump that routes excess fluid back to filter.   Flow travels from the pump to a closed center valve 12 and tees over to the spring return single acting "brake cylinder" #14 and also "clamp tightener" #6.  

So 12 is the valve to move the log stop?  Is it a manual spool that you have to move or does some mechanical link work that valve when you plunge the saw arbor?  Valve 15 .."ree circulation of cutting legth's mover" ...  ?  It is obviously a 2 position open/closed valve teed into the rod end of the cylinder and seems to offer a second route for fluid back to tank when valve 12 is closed.. ?  What actuates valve 15?  When you stroke valve 12 it should block the path to tank and actuate the log stop cylinder in either direction but still provides flow to the teed brake and clamp cylinders.  Does this seem right?  


It would be much, much easier to figure out in the presence of the machine.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2020, 04:01:59 AM »
Mike, it's Finnish. not German.   ;D

The 4 pumps and blade are all powered by an electric motor. 
All via belts. 

The blade spins all the time.

The brake cylinder back support has all been dismantled.I can see the dropping plate's cylinder hanging there, but not the brake cylinder. 

Valves 12 and 15 for the log length stop work in tandem. It's the arm actuating 12, when in the up position. The 15 one is at the end of the log stop. It only lets the flow on the shaft side of the cylinder return to the tank when pressed, in the "length stop" position.   In the sawing position, when the sensor is pressed,  it is blocking the flow.  When the saw is up and  valve number 12 actuated, it reverts the flow, so there is pressure on the shaft's side. Meaning it pushes the cylinder's piston back in.  Whaaaa!! it does my head in! 


Catch you later! 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2020, 05:39:16 AM »
You can really see the movement of the log stop here. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2020, 07:26:40 AM »
Didnt germany conquer finland? Some of the occupiers must have left offspring behind because this thing is for sure a head spinner.  Apv?  Extra speed valve.. What else can we add in LoL.

The brake cylinder that missing .. What did it used to do?  That is part of the circuit giving you trouble it seems.  
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2020, 07:31:08 AM »
Well, i don't know! I might just make it "manual" With the dropping plate's control. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2020, 08:29:47 AM »
Well max, i got the 3 PDFs, obviously i cant read the 3rd one being a foreign language.  My head is now spinning too.  I cannot believe they made this so incredibly full of expensive parts and complication with such a poor manual and not even a paragraph on theory of operations.  Theyve left you to just figure out a spaceshuttle on your own. 


I  dont see that log stoppers hydraulic movement as serving much purpose.  Many machines just advance to a chain or a dead stop.  Im use hay rake teeth for a stopper, they spring a little. 


I will go back and look for the vid of what yours is doing wrong.  Did you see the part about the precise adjustment on the spool thats linked to the saw arm?  Youve got it set correctly?

Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2020, 08:39:53 AM »
So, my blade needs sharpening.











The depth stop doesn't function,

The log clamp hasn't got any strength. But i still can do my firewood. I might have half a cord, or a smidge less of already well dried logs, cut to length. Some 4" to 8" trunks which might dry fast enough. And some huge 15 to 18, some which are too big for the processor. Will cut in 1 meter, and split on the 32 tons table splitter of a friend, i think. Or chuck these on the saw, and split down the middle with it.
Okay i think i am up to speed now.  I see your stop is out of commision completely.  Is it disconnected? 
Does the drop shelf work?  It is operated by a manual valve or somehow automated?
Is your clamp still weak?   
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2020, 11:25:08 AM »
Shelf is welded solid. And cylinder hanging by the hoses. 

Log clamp seems weak. I can move it by hand, and the cylinder is leaking out. 

The stop is all connected. And it should be automated by there'd valve, and the lengths stop at it's end. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2020, 12:24:14 PM »
I remember watching European firewood processers at shows. They where high tech, light and fast. They seemed way ahead of our some what crude and heavy machines. I always wondered how they would hold up.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2020, 02:09:30 PM »
It seems like you have an opportunity to trim some excess out of this unit while mending its booboo's. 

 ive been thinking the saw motor was hydraulic drive but i see in the photos its belted off the electric motor.  So the two motor symbols in the schematic are infeed and outfeed conveyor then.. Which is which?  One is at the bottom right after the pump with a relief around it.. Im guessing that is the outfeed .. The other is right after 2 joysticks in series. 


Is there any other cobbled goofy stuff youve left out? The saw arm comes up and hits the plunger that enables the infeed conveyor.. That is all functioning correctly?  The brake valve with the tension spring on it.. Was that supposed to be normally in the brake position and hydraulically released to run the log in?


I really need to use my wifes laptop when she gets home later so i can print the schematic and part number pages.  Just cant see it on a phone but im getting a clearer understanding of the whole machine.  It took a while to realize they showed it with both electric option and pto right angle drive option but no explanation that it was one or the other.  
    
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2020, 12:04:34 AM »
Hi guys. 


Thanks a lot for your replies. 

Bottom hydraulic motor on the schemo, is outfeed. Top one is infeed. I had hoped that the saw was hydraulic. Doing a conversion would have been easy. 

The  infeed conveyor stop doesn't work. The conveyor is always functioning. There is a single joystick controlling up and down blade movement,and lest right movement of the conveyor. Really that conveyor stop doesn't serve much purpose. 

Infeed clamp's cylinder is shot. Leaking badly internally. I think. I can move it by hand, and i can feel that the hydraulic fluid gets lost somewhere. So, since that one has the "clamp's lightening" on that circuit which bugs me. I might have lost all hydraulic pressure on that line. 

I'll get it! 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2020, 12:12:28 AM »
I really don't understand 9.5 valve functioning, in conjunction with cylinder number 6.

Where is the return to tank on that one? I don't know.

Return would seem to be done via part 17.

But that one ???   Pressure from two pumps. For two speeds on the splitter i guess. But what does it have to do with the return line?

I don't get the internal connection between the two cylinder's sides ports on the 9.5 valve.   
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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2020, 06:38:01 AM »
I got it printed last night and will do some sketching after i get the kids on the bus and have coffee.  The infeed conveyor flow should be blocked when the saw arbor is moving by what the schematic says to me
 
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2020, 09:34:12 AM »
Im coming up with a lot of lazy errors in the schematic when you really study the details.  Then there are parts that i just cant make work on paper the way they have them drawn.  when i combine my doubt of the drafters with the "how can that be possible" segments, its hard to have any faith in this thing being what you really have.  Ive read better washing machine manuals, atleast they actually have a paragraph or two on theory of operations so you can say okay, here is how this section flows, i interpretted that wrong.  With no legend or descriptio on the specialty valving in pump circuit 1 or 2 the lay person is just guessing at this thing.  No wonder your machine has been all jacked up by someone just trying to get it splitting again. 




Anyway im almost done but need to know more about the physical layout of the log stop and what the difference is between cylinder 4 [cutting length adjustment] vs cylinder 7, "cutting length's mover.  And valve 13 which says "safety mesh" [more like mess] and appears to interrupt the rod end side from valve 9.3.  Is that to disable moving the length stop when the saw arbor leaves home?

Im picturing that you have a valve [9.3] to move the log stop [cylinder 4] which moves some hunk of steel for setting length.  And on that hunk of steel is mounted cylinder 7, this automated pointless doodad that makes the stop plate do its silly dance at the end of the log and impress people with good credit at expos.  Please concur or correct me on that.




The log clamp [cyl 6] is a wierd one.  The way its drawn it appears to have pump 4 fluid on the blind end and pump 2 fluid on the rod end.  But wierder is that as soon as you turn the machine on, as drawn, pump 4 is running dead head against the blind end of the cylinder, extending it until popping a 100bar relief.  IMHO this is a ridiculous way to build it if thats true.  To just run against a 1450 psi load for NOTHING while the operator answers a text?!

I havent even got into the combining valve 17 or apv 16 yet.  

Is there not a palax rep here?  Do they sponsor the FF?  The cost of the hoses on a palax exceeds the total value of the processor im building right now. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2020, 10:53:06 AM »
Cylinder 4 log length adjustment lengthens or shortens the machine chassis. Nothing to do with #7 which moved the 3cm clearance when sawing.  

13 is just a stop, reverting back the flow to the tank, instead of the cylinder. When you've reached the full length of adjustment. Kind of. Working in conjunction with 9.3. 

Now, with cylinder 6,  100 bar  circuit on the blind end serves just as a spring I would say.  Need more clamping pressure,  push valve 9.3 to have the 120 bar circuit go all to the tank. Releasing the pressure on the rod side. Need to lift it. Apply 120 bars of pressure to ther end.  At least, that is how i see it. 

Not to shabby. 

But I think this is where I loose all pressure. Number 6 cylinder being internally shot And releasing the pressure to the tank. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2020, 12:29:59 PM »
Ahh.. Nothing in this literature makes the chassis lengthening apparent.  


Does that circuit all work correct?


Is there a clear reason when looking at the machine, why #13 even needs to be in the circuit?  Pump 2 has a 120bar relief to tank.  it would save time and money to just put a correct length cylinder or stop collar if the stroke needs limiting vs the expense of valve, fittings, hoses and time/mat'l to mount it.  What am i missing there?
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2020, 01:10:38 PM »
So its not possible for me to know the ways of connection, orientation and timing of valve 12 without seeing this thing in person but it plays a role in valve 9.5 and cyl 6, your clamp.  The pressure in the blue line from the clamp cylinders blind end is what i cant know.  If i could say 9.5 zigs when 12 zags then i could sketch out a fluid path but not without that info.



I think i have the rest of it pretty well figured and will start uploading that now.  If you can give a sequence of what actuates valve 12 and 15 it would help.  Also the orientation of cylinder 7.  When the log hits the stop is it trying to compress or extend cylinder 7?  What makes valve 15 shuttle?  Its teed into cylinder 7 rod end and seems to act like an exhaust bypass valve to tank in order to make the cylinder move fast. But i can only guess without seeing the machine. 


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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2020, 01:46:31 PM »
This is my overall worksheet.  I may be wrong on things.  Feel free to point out anything at all you think is different than what i got here.





Pump 4 is still a gray area that i need more info on to say i get it or dont.  Pump 3 is about the most straightforward.





The drafter forgot the labels for the conveyor drive motors, 21 and 22, as well as the drain connections back to tank on the joystick valves, which i added and circled in green.  You cant dead end hydraulic fluid to a motor.  It has to come out and go elsewhere, eventually arriving back at tank.  


The schematic shows neutral valve positions.  At startup the cutting saw and outfeed conveyor should run continuous. Pump 3 pulls from tank, goes through the firewood conveyor.  If it jams the 30 bar bypass lets flow go around the conveyor motor on to the joystick valves in series with the outfeed conveyor motor.  


Before coming to the joystick valves it passes a seemingly pointless 50bar bypass [which makes little sense with a 30bar upstream] thru joystick 2 then joystick 1, both open centered, then back to the return filter and tank.

 Joystick 2 works the saw arbor, upstream of the infeed conveyor so when the saw arbor valve is stroked in either direction,  flow to the infeed conveyor is blocked.  

There is a 30bar relief on the saw cylinder circuit. Lots of reliefs.  No idea if it accurately represents what is truly on the machine. 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2020, 02:41:10 PM »
Pump 2 isnt too bad.  I think theres a 5 spool stack valve 9.1 thru 9.5 that controls 5 cylinders. All 5 sections are open centered at rest but the centers of 9.4 and 9.5 are unique, circled in green.  These 5 valves on the right control the 5 cylinders to the left with the exception of shared control on cylinder 6 in a wonky shared circuit with pump 4.  still a puzzle there. Need more info on sequence.


[Note- i circled the color difference on the spring returns for valve 9 also.  Not sure if it is significant without a legend]







Pump 2 draws from tank and flows essentially into a cross fitting. Theres a 120bar overall circuit relief to tank.  The flow goes to the open center valve block #9 and all exhaust flow from the valve is routed to valve #17.  Also just after pump 2 there is a line to the double check valve at the combining valve [or maybe unloader], 17.  The schematic shows a full line.  But the fluid is routed to a double check valve with pump 1 that both act against a valve face to unblock a passage to tank.  I think these are signal/sensing lines and should be dotted but cant say without seeing the size of the hoses. 






Note that this double check has 2 different system pressures on each side, 120 bar vs 200 bar.  Obviously the 200bar will shuttle the check ball and block the 120 from entering the signal side of valve 17 [applying westward force in the chart, on the spring loaded poppet face, unblocking the tank return passage]


That makes it as if the tee just above pump 2 never existed and all flow will go through valve block 9 then exhaust flow will travel through valve 17 from north to south back to tank.  I think its an unloader.  Sorta strange way to draw one.  


I drew the flow on the pink line from pump1 as one way but now i think it is a reversible flow under different conditions at the combiner/unloader valve 17.   Without the T.O.O. on valve 17 we are looking at only one static state of a very active component. I assume it combines pump 1 and 2 in order to extend the splitter cylinder fastest.  







The APV is another head scratcher.  I expected it to be a bypass dump valve for the rod end fluid to retract the ram faster.  But i dont see any sign of it dumping direct to tank without going through the valve first so thats not a bypass dump. maybe its a regenerative extension circuit to put rod end fluid into the blind end under extension.  I dont know.



One big issue is i cant make this thing work in my head without adding the point circled in green.  Otherwise i can figure how the fluid from pump 1 or 2 ever gets to the splitter cylinder.  With that in place i think it does.  


A simplified sketch of it, deleting the APV.






Revelation 3:20

Offline GRANITEstateMP

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2020, 06:43:52 PM »
Y'all just hurt my brain. The mouse up there read this, looked at the pictures, then got off his wheel and went home!

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Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2020, 10:22:00 AM »
Thanks a lot Mike. 





I am a bit overwhelmed by all this. 



About the outfeed  conveyor, it runs all the the time yes. 



One thing you might not know. The splitting cylinder is kind of automatic. When you bring the saw back up, it splits the wood. But can be overriden by the  manual valve. Either to split the last log, or logs that you feed directly in the splitter, or to stop when something is wrong. 



The infeed conveyor valve isn't functioning. If i raise the saw halfway then feed in it, it feeds. But that doesn't matter too much. You can't feed while lowering the saw, because of the mechanical window around the joystick. 



I hadn't seen the problem on valve ten. But you're right. There is a bit of the schemo missing. But it seems corrected on page 25. The cylinder has a second pushing chamber. As it seems. Of which hydraulic fluid must come back to tank through the valve on the right. Which if i understand correctly is one way in.  And hydraulic fluid push the pressure limiter, when being pushed back by the rod side of the big cylinder. How's that? Sounds plausible? 



Valve 9.4 and cylinder #5 i have no problem with.  I think it is built as  keeping always pressure on the blind side, so the  wedge can't be pushed downwards. 





Valve 9.5, is something i don't understand. 



Well, i think i was misreading it.  What was giving me grief is this cross line. 





 



But i think i get it.  



At standby position,  The flow is blocked, but  on the rod side, it's open directly to the tank side. Which might be somewhat pressure "held" by valve 17.  And the 100 bars on the blind side, act just as a spring for that residual pressure. 



When you insert the left drawer. It blocks all flow to the rod side, and lets all the rod side fluid to the tank line. Well, may be there is something else happening at valve 17, which drops the pressure furthermore?  Because it seems quite equivalent to the previous position, if you don't have either a pressure or flow limiter on the return to tank line.   I think that's when you need more pressure on the clamp. Being given bi the 100 bars on the blind side. 



When you insert the right drawer, it's pretty straightforward, blocks all return line on the rod side, and sends all pressure to it. 120 bars fighting with 100 bars. = 20 bars to open the clamp.  



The cylinder is a 32/20-100 



Blind side is 8.04cm,  804 kilos on that side. With 100 bars. 



Rod side is 4.9004 cm  x 120 bars  that's 588.10 kilos. 



There is something very wrong there either in my theory or my knowledge.  



Stumped again! 



But there is one thing for sure, the machine not powered, i can move  the clamp by hand, and i can feel it loosing the hydraulic fluid.  
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2020, 10:48:16 AM »
Y'all just hurt my brain. The mouse up there read this, looked at the pictures, then got off his wheel and went home!
Thats about how i feel about sports.   3 seconds, look away.   Now sports illustrated swimsuit edition otoh, i'll stare a little longer!
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2020, 10:51:14 AM »
Max, i will need a little while to marinate on your post and get back to you.  I was making an edit this morning that got lengthy and will paste it here in the meanwhile.  

Also i think ive been looking at the stopper circuit incorrectly.  But i cant find any good pictures on its construction to be sure. Here is the cut/paste

------------------

Pretty confident that at low pressures the exhaust flow from valve block 9 goes to valve 17 and then travels down the pink line to join up with the flow at pump 1, then enters the splitter valve for high volume low pressure.  When pressure crosses a threshold the poppet unblocks the tank path and reveals it to pump 2 but not pump 1 so all you have is pump 1's flow to the splitter.  So 17 is an external unloader of pump 2.  


 In "cheap" splitter pumps its common to have two tandem pumps -a big and a small- married in one case with one simple unloader, and one common inlet and outlet port.  The issue is that you have no access to a stable single volume flow.  The entire output is a two stage that will shift to lowgear [unload the big pump] whenever you hit threshold pressure.  You cant use that flow for hydraulic cylinders or conveyors without suffering from dangerous sudden speed shifts.  A conveyor would probably keep the setup in low flow all the time so you need an additional pump for non two speed components.  


What palax has done here is smart, it allows them to have a two stage flow to the splitter valve while also having the use of the high pressure pump for other functions.  And im guessing on which pump is which, they list pump 1 as the high pressure and pump 2 as the low pressure.  Well, the low pressure is the big high volume gearset typically.  Thats the one you unload as soon as you hit a knot so the engine doesnt fall on its face.  This drops the power demand down from say 25hp to 7hp because only the small pump is engaged and it doesnt take much ponypower to get to 200bar with a tiny pump to bust the knot.  As soon as pressure drops, the big pump joins back in and shoves the ram through fast again. 2 speed pumps look like a stall out or struggle when you watch the cylinder move but it isnt. Its a gear shift and a delay as the pressure rises against the load until it defeats the load and goes fast again.


Anyways they have pump 1 as 200 bar and pump 2 as 120 bar.  That suggest pump 2 is large and pump 1 the smaller but i kinda doubt it.  That would mean theres say 25+ gpm going through valve 9 to run the cylinders.  Mmmmmmmm.... Idk. theyd be pretty hard to control.  I would design a wedge height adjustment and a log lift & clamp with 3-6 gpm for safety and controllability.  So im saying the relief valve pressures on the schematic MAY be mixed up.  Its possible.  It does make sense to unload the big pump as they have it drawn, but its strange to make it also a controller for precision movements of small cylinders.  


One way to check would be to stroke the splitter without a log, and use the log lift at the same time.  That will cut pump 2's flow out of the splitter valve while in use.  If the ram drops to really low speed immediately then pump 2 is in fact the big pump.  Losing the small pump will probably be nearly unnoticeable at low pressure. 

There is a chance neither is big or small i guess but in the photos it sure looks theres a monster first section. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2020, 05:24:50 PM »
Big pump is also the main splitting one. 



 

How they make the two speeds is not as you think. The cylinder is "double" there is an outside envelope working with the 200 bars from the big pump.  But there is a small cylinder in the bigger one, there just to push the bigger one into contact. That's all on page 25 of hydraulic manual. Or at least that's how i understand the thing. 


French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2020, 09:09:55 PM »
I now have 4 manuals on a machine i dont own.  Its getting a little excessive.  :D
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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2020, 03:11:25 AM »
I now have 4 manuals on a machine i dont own.  Its getting a little excessive.  :D
Right click, send to the bin!  ;D Easily sorted! 
I have ordered an hydraulic cylinder, see if that fixes the thing. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Flowfit-Hydraulic-Double-Acting-Standard-Cylinder-Ram-32mm-to-125mm-Bore-Option/283781394718?hash=item4212b0711e:g:GkkAAOSw8LNeRStR
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2020, 07:28:45 AM »
Morning max.  The forum kept timing out on me yesterday.  So lets see here...

Quote
One thing you might not know. The splitting cylinder is kind of automatic. When you bring the saw back up, it splits the wood.

Youre right, thats news to me.  i dont see anything in the overall hydraulic schematic ive been scribbling on that would do that.  Is it a solenoid control or some linkage that didnt make the sketch?  



Quote
The infeed conveyor valve isn't functioning. If i raise the saw halfway then feed in it, it feeds.
I think i saw mention in one of the manuals on maintaining adjustment of the safety valve up on the saw arbor somewhere.  It should be the 2 position on/off valve left of the conveyor motor up top in schematic.
Quote
Valve 9.4 and cylinder #5 i have no problem with.  I think it is built as  keeping always pressure on the blind side, so the  wedge can't be pushed downwards.

All D/A cylinders will lock in position when they have closed work ports at the valve, free of air inside and the valve and packings dont leak.  
Quote
Valve 9.5, is something i don't understand.

Well, i think i was misreading it.  What was giving me grief is this cross line.
9.5 is a screwball because of that seemingly pointless cross line and perhaps there is detail missing that would make it logical.  That valves center position has no port drawn at the top left and a blocked port at bottom left so its a branch to nowhere as drawn.  If they mean it connects both sides in one of the shifted positions they shoulda drawn it in the side box(es).



but since it's cylinder has fluid from pump 3 on one end and pump 4 on the other, which seems to have no control valving (!!!) i have been saving that for last until i had a better understanding of the layout for the log clamp parts, all the stuff i asked a few posts ago.  Without seeing the machine myself there are just too many variables for me to assume wrong.
Quote
But there is one thing for sure, the machine not powered, i can move  the clamp by hand, and i can feel it loosing the hydraulic fluid.

Well that is no surprise, look at the blue path from the cylinder headed back to the right.  Theres no valve to hold the fluid in.  If the machine is off youre forcing fluid back through the pump to the tank plumbing, according to their print.  Far as i can tell the pressure from the pump running at 100 bar is what holds it down.  The defeated conveyor brake may be contributing but hard to say from here.  Its spring return would act like an accumulator in the circuit, but not without a valve.  
The way theyve drawn it pump 4 completely deadheads against valve 12, the conveyor brake and log clamp any time its running, at 1450psi.  The relief poppet is the only path to tank.  



If your drop table is welded solid then that gives you a spare valve on pump 2.  I would just plumb the work ports off valve 9.2 over to the clamp cylinder to fix that.  
Then youve got pump 4 serving no purpose.  The conveyor brake is disabled and you really dont need the log stop dance.  I would just plumb pump 4s output back to tank or through a cooler or something.  Maybe use it to power a trommel in the future.

Quote
How they make the two speeds is not as you think. The cylinder is "double" there is an outside envelope working with the 200 bars from the big pump.  But there is a small cylinder in the bigger one, there just to push the bigger one into contact. That's all on page 25 of hydraulic manual. Or at least that's how i understand the thing.

Ofcoarse its the very last manual i try to find the right page 25  :D
I did see that cylinder once the first day and looked right at it but didnt notice the two stages.  My head was in a spin trying to figure out valve 17 and the apv.  And at this point, i dont care.  The splitter works.  Let palax come here and explain it to us all!  
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2020, 08:46:43 AM »
Thanks a lot Mike. Don't worry too much. There is stuff i don't understand on this schemo. But the stuff i don't understand functions.  ;D

The page 25, sorry. 

Here you go. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2020, 09:29:11 AM »
Yeah thats the one.  For some reason your imagines come up much clearer than the ones in the .pdfs.  I cant upload screenshots either unfortunately, my phone saves as a png and the forum rejects them.  


Anyway i looked at that cylinder one time and thought how am i supposed to figure this out.. They didnt draw the actual port to cavity connections.. Then i moved on to other sections.  



So is ditching pump 4 and using the dropper plate valve to run the log clamp an option?
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2020, 09:47:04 AM »
That 2 stage piston is sort of a missing link to explain what first appeared as an odd pressure and sizing on the 1st and 2nd pump.  If the machine used one big standard ram it would be but the double piston changes everything.  

I will guess that they extend only the inner bore to move fast and weak until encountering a knot, when the valving switches the flow to advance the big [slow and strong] cylinder and the small one within it simultaneously.  Then you only have to move a big ram for an inch or two of difficulty which is actually brilliant.  But complicated as we can see.  


That "extra speed/oil" #17 valve i still think is the overall combiner/unloader of pump 2.  My scribbles are somewhat wrong but its this image.  





At low wood resistance/ low fluid pressures, the relief valve spring blocks the path to tank. The flow from the exhaust side of valvebank 9 comes in from the top, heads south and hits a wall, so it unseats that checkball, circles the block and heads south down pink street to join pump 1 in splitting.  

When the wood puts up a fight and the pressure rises on the pink line, it forces the closed relief to compress its spring and open, revealing the tank passage only to pump 2 and only for the instant that the wood is talking back. This just drops the flow and HP requirement momentarily so the machine doesnt lug or trip the breaker.


The sketch on page 25 only shows a singular pump feeding the splitter valve so i guess its been simplified, by palax standards!


Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2020, 04:16:22 AM »
The cylinder i have ordered is a smidge too long!  :(
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2020, 07:18:53 AM »
Try hooking your existing clamp cylinder to directional control valve 9.2 from the drop plate just as a test.  


You can leak plenty of fluid out a blown rod gland seal, that has no effect on the piston seal. The unit will still have nearly full force.  My forklift sprayed oil out the rod seal until i changed it, and still lifted everything.

 The clamp circuit is jacked up more than the leaky clamp cylinder.  Put it on a good circuit.  9.2
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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2020, 07:53:42 AM »
Mike, it's the physical size of the cylinder which is too big. But not by much. I just have to redrill the original cylinder mount on the frame. But i need to find two  screw nipples, to connect before. I have split a truckload last evening.  And the shear bolt of the log stop broke again! :( It doesn't take much. It's an M8. And i would be really happy if the wiggle dance of the log stop would start again. Otherwise, i find it pinches the blade if i'm not careful, to leave one inch between the stop and the log. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2020, 09:13:32 AM »
I meant your old cylinder.  If that schematic is correct, i expect your new cylinder to do the same thing as the old, except leak. 


Mount a spring bar for the log stop.  Either a mudflap mount or hay rake tine.  









You can tack weld the coil to a 1" bar.  Or just dangle a chain like everyone else.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2020, 09:23:00 AM »
Try hooking your existing clamp cylinder to directional control valve 9.2 from the drop plate just as a test.  


You can leak plenty of fluid out a blown rod gland seal, that has no effect on the piston seal. The unit will still have nearly full force.  My forklift sprayed oil out the rod seal until i changed it, and still lifted everything.

The clamp circuit is jacked up more than the leaky clamp cylinder.  Put it on a good circuit.  9.2

I meant your old cylinder.  If that schematic is correct, i expect your new cylinder to do the same thing as the old, except leak.


Mount a spring bar for the log stop.  Either a mudflap mount or hay rake tine.  


(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)



(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)


You can tack weld the coil to a 1" bar.  Or just dangle a chain like everyone else.
I think i can see what you mean with the spring. Why do you want me to mount the leaky cylinder on the circuit for the drop plate. I already have the cylinder there, the original one. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2020, 09:34:04 AM »
Youre misunderstanding me.

You are having a problem with the clamp cylinder because it has no valve and requires everything else in that system to work, which doesnt.  Your conveyor brake is messed up and your log stop too.  Thats why the clamp is messed up. And i cant tell you exactly how to fix it from here.


Your log clamp cylinder would be powerful and hold right if it was connected to a control valve with fluid behind it.  You have an unused valve in in the #9 bank if i understood you correctly, that 9.2 cylinder is just hanging there disconnected because the log drop table is welded up.  So disconnect it and plumb that valve over to the clamp.  Presto. Working clamp. 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #93 on: September 23, 2020, 03:09:04 AM »
Any progress?
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #94 on: September 23, 2020, 04:07:17 AM »
Nope Mike, it's been raining, and i haven't had time to do anything. 

Sorry. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2020, 06:02:40 PM »
Well, autumn arriving, i did split another truckload Today. 


What i noticed, is that the infeed conveyor stops a bit, most certainly due to the stop conveyor valve. But it doesn't seem consistent. And i know why i broke the shear pin of the log stop last time. If the log falls down badly It gets stuck between the log pushed which surrounds the cylinder, and  the log stop. Resulting in shearing of the log sto shear pin. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2020, 05:39:09 PM »
A typical truckload. 

My tipper is 11' long 6.6' wide. I fill that on 3' 4' in a pile. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2020, 09:22:34 PM »
Well, it makes nice firewood.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2020, 11:32:47 PM »
Doesn't look too shabby. Yes! 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.


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