Well, i went mad.

[Satamax]

This is not the main valve. But the 100 bar limiter for the hydraulic cylinder. 



 

 



There is wear marks on both parts. So i gonna reassemble as shown above. 

[Satamax]

Still does'ne work. It's doing my head in. 

[Satamax]

Discovered something. 

My valve, affixed to the frame. 



 

[Satamax]

And the same in picture, on the manual, with three hoses on the bottom. 

I'll have to check where the other one is! 



 

[mike_belben]

Okay, youve got a serious schematic up.  

1. What is the machine doing that it shouldnt or not doing that it should?

2. What component numbers from that schematic do you think are involved?

3. What reference number is the valve that you posted. 


Want to help you but still flying blind here.  

[Satamax]

Mike, it's the valve 12 and 15.  And the cylinder 7. 

The later should come forward towards the saw, before cutting, and when sawing, it should back up, to avoid pinching the  saw, when the log falls. 

And it doesn't. 

What I see on number 12 valve,  the middle input port does nothing.  And the plug is on the side. 

The guy which fiddled with it had really no clue! I think.b

[mike_belben]

Well... In the prior owners defense this hydraulic schematic is making me think its a german machine.  Incredibly complex and expensive way to make a glorified wood splitter.

I have about a hundred questions that can probably only be answered by reading the manufacturer's theory of operations to understand the sequence and actuation of it all. 


I cant quite read all the numbers.  4 separate pump sections?  What drives it/them? electric motor?  Is the saw spinning as soon as you turn it on?  Does it stay spinning or power up and brake to a stop with every cut?  If not, what does the brake cylinder do?  #14.  What about the conveyor safety valve 11?

It looks like the blue pump circuit has a 100bar primary relief teed just after the pump that routes excess fluid back to filter.   Flow travels from the pump to a closed center valve 12 and tees over to the spring return single acting "brake cylinder" #14 and also "clamp tightener" #6.  

So 12 is the valve to move the log stop?  Is it a manual spool that you have to move or does some mechanical link work that valve when you plunge the saw arbor?  Valve 15 .."ree circulation of cutting legth's mover" ...  ?  It is obviously a 2 position open/closed valve teed into the rod end of the cylinder and seems to offer a second route for fluid back to tank when valve 12 is closed.. ?  What actuates valve 15?  When you stroke valve 12 it should block the path to tank and actuate the log stop cylinder in either direction but still provides flow to the teed brake and clamp cylinders.  Does this seem right?  


It would be much, much easier to figure out in the presence of the machine.  

[Satamax]

Mike, it's Finnish. not German.   ;D

The 4 pumps and blade are all powered by an electric motor. 
All via belts. 

The blade spins all the time.

The brake cylinder back support has all been dismantled.I can see the dropping plate's cylinder hanging there, but not the brake cylinder. 

Valves 12 and 15 for the log length stop work in tandem. It's the arm actuating 12, when in the up position. The 15 one is at the end of the log stop. It only lets the flow on the shaft side of the cylinder return to the tank when pressed, in the "length stop" position.   In the sawing position, when the sensor is pressed,  it is blocking the flow.  When the saw is up and  valve number 12 actuated, it reverts the flow, so there is pressure on the shaft's side. Meaning it pushes the cylinder's piston back in.  Whaaaa!! it does my head in! 


Catch you later! 

[Satamax]

You can really see the movement of the log stop here. 

Palax Power100S Firewood Processor version 02 - YouTube

[mike_belben]

Didnt germany conquer finland? Some of the occupiers must have left offspring behind because this thing is for sure a head spinner.  Apv?  Extra speed valve.. What else can we add in LoL.

The brake cylinder that missing .. What did it used to do?  That is part of the circuit giving you trouble it seems.  

[Satamax]

Well, i don't know! I might just make it "manual" With the dropping plate's control. 

[mike_belben]

Well max, i got the 3 PDFs, obviously i cant read the 3rd one being a foreign language.  My head is now spinning too.  I cannot believe they made this so incredibly full of expensive parts and complication with such a poor manual and not even a paragraph on theory of operations.  Theyve left you to just figure out a spaceshuttle on your own. 


I  dont see that log stoppers hydraulic movement as serving much purpose.  Many machines just advance to a chain or a dead stop.  Im use hay rake teeth for a stopper, they spring a little. 


I will go back and look for the vid of what yours is doing wrong.  Did you see the part about the precise adjustment on the spool thats linked to the saw arm?  Youve got it set correctly?

[mike_belben]

So, my blade needs sharpening.

Palax power 100s - YouTube

31 août 2020 - YouTube

31 août 2020 - YouTube

31 août 2020 - YouTube

31 août 2020 - YouTube

The depth stop doesn't function,

The log clamp hasn't got any strength. But i still can do my firewood. I might have half a cord, or a smidge less of already well dried logs, cut to length. Some 4" to 8" trunks which might dry fast enough. And some huge 15 to 18, some which are too big for the processor. Will cut in 1 meter, and split on the 32 tons table splitter of a friend, i think. Or chuck these on the saw, and split down the middle with it.

Okay i think i am up to speed now.  I see your stop is out of commision completely.  Is it disconnected? 
Does the drop shelf work?  It is operated by a manual valve or somehow automated?
Is your clamp still weak?   

[Satamax]

Shelf is welded solid. And cylinder hanging by the hoses. 

Log clamp seems weak. I can move it by hand, and the cylinder is leaking out. 

The stop is all connected. And it should be automated by there'd valve, and the lengths stop at it's end. 

[moodnacreek]

I remember watching European firewood processers at shows. They where high tech, light and fast. They seemed way ahead of our some what crude and heavy machines. I always wondered how they would hold up.

[mike_belben]

It seems like you have an opportunity to trim some excess out of this unit while mending its booboo's. 

 ive been thinking the saw motor was hydraulic drive but i see in the photos its belted off the electric motor.  So the two motor symbols in the schematic are infeed and outfeed conveyor then.. Which is which?  One is at the bottom right after the pump with a relief around it.. Im guessing that is the outfeed .. The other is right after 2 joysticks in series. 


Is there any other cobbled goofy stuff youve left out? The saw arm comes up and hits the plunger that enables the infeed conveyor.. That is all functioning correctly?  The brake valve with the tension spring on it.. Was that supposed to be normally in the brake position and hydraulically released to run the log in?


I really need to use my wifes laptop when she gets home later so i can print the schematic and part number pages.  Just cant see it on a phone but im getting a clearer understanding of the whole machine.  It took a while to realize they showed it with both electric option and pto right angle drive option but no explanation that it was one or the other.  
    

[Satamax]

Hi guys. 


Thanks a lot for your replies. 

Bottom hydraulic motor on the schemo, is outfeed. Top one is infeed. I had hoped that the saw was hydraulic. Doing a conversion would have been easy. 

The  infeed conveyor stop doesn't work. The conveyor is always functioning. There is a single joystick controlling up and down blade movement,and lest right movement of the conveyor. Really that conveyor stop doesn't serve much purpose. 

Infeed clamp's cylinder is shot. Leaking badly internally. I think. I can move it by hand, and i can feel that the hydraulic fluid gets lost somewhere. So, since that one has the "clamp's lightening" on that circuit which bugs me. I might have lost all hydraulic pressure on that line. 

I'll get it! 

[Satamax]

I really don't understand 9.5 valve functioning, in conjunction with cylinder number 6.

Where is the return to tank on that one? I don't know.

Return would seem to be done via part 17.

But that one ???   Pressure from two pumps. For two speeds on the splitter i guess. But what does it have to do with the return line?

I don't get the internal connection between the two cylinder's sides ports on the 9.5 valve.   

[mike_belben]

I got it printed last night and will do some sketching after i get the kids on the bus and have coffee.  The infeed conveyor flow should be blocked when the saw arbor is moving by what the schematic says to me
 

[mike_belben]

Im coming up with a lot of lazy errors in the schematic when you really study the details.  Then there are parts that i just cant make work on paper the way they have them drawn.  when i combine my doubt of the drafters with the "how can that be possible" segments, its hard to have any faith in this thing being what you really have.  Ive read better washing machine manuals, atleast they actually have a paragraph or two on theory of operations so you can say okay, here is how this section flows, i interpretted that wrong.  With no legend or descriptio on the specialty valving in pump circuit 1 or 2 the lay person is just guessing at this thing.  No wonder your machine has been all jacked up by someone just trying to get it splitting again. 




Anyway im almost done but need to know more about the physical layout of the log stop and what the difference is between cylinder 4 [cutting length adjustment] vs cylinder 7, "cutting length's mover.  And valve 13 which says "safety mesh" [more like mess] and appears to interrupt the rod end side from valve 9.3.  Is that to disable moving the length stop when the saw arbor leaves home?

Im picturing that you have a valve [9.3] to move the log stop [cylinder 4] which moves some hunk of steel for setting length.  And on that hunk of steel is mounted cylinder 7, this automated pointless doodad that makes the stop plate do its silly dance at the end of the log and impress people with good credit at expos.  Please concur or correct me on that.




The log clamp [cyl 6] is a wierd one.  The way its drawn it appears to have pump 4 fluid on the blind end and pump 2 fluid on the rod end.  But wierder is that as soon as you turn the machine on, as drawn, pump 4 is running dead head against the blind end of the cylinder, extending it until popping a 100bar relief.  IMHO this is a ridiculous way to build it if thats true.  To just run against a 1450 psi load for NOTHING while the operator answers a text?!

I havent even got into the combining valve 17 or apv 16 yet.  

Is there not a palax rep here?  Do they sponsor the FF?  The cost of the hoses on a palax exceeds the total value of the processor im building right now. 

[Satamax]

Cylinder 4 log length adjustment lengthens or shortens the machine chassis. Nothing to do with #7 which moved the 3cm clearance when sawing.  

13 is just a stop, reverting back the flow to the tank, instead of the cylinder. When you've reached the full length of adjustment. Kind of. Working in conjunction with 9.3. 

Now, with cylinder 6,  100 bar  circuit on the blind end serves just as a spring I would say.  Need more clamping pressure,  push valve 9.3 to have the 120 bar circuit go all to the tank. Releasing the pressure on the rod side. Need to lift it. Apply 120 bars of pressure to ther end.  At least, that is how i see it. 

Not to shabby. 

But I think this is where I loose all pressure. Number 6 cylinder being internally shot And releasing the pressure to the tank. 

[mike_belben]

Ahh.. Nothing in this literature makes the chassis lengthening apparent.  


Does that circuit all work correct?


Is there a clear reason when looking at the machine, why #13 even needs to be in the circuit?  Pump 2 has a 120bar relief to tank.  it would save time and money to just put a correct length cylinder or stop collar if the stroke needs limiting vs the expense of valve, fittings, hoses and time/mat'l to mount it.  What am i missing there?

[mike_belben]

So its not possible for me to know the ways of connection, orientation and timing of valve 12 without seeing this thing in person but it plays a role in valve 9.5 and cyl 6, your clamp.  The pressure in the blue line from the clamp cylinders blind end is what i cant know.  If i could say 9.5 zigs when 12 zags then i could sketch out a fluid path but not without that info.



I think i have the rest of it pretty well figured and will start uploading that now.  If you can give a sequence of what actuates valve 12 and 15 it would help.  Also the orientation of cylinder 7.  When the log hits the stop is it trying to compress or extend cylinder 7?  What makes valve 15 shuttle?  Its teed into cylinder 7 rod end and seems to act like an exhaust bypass valve to tank in order to make the cylinder move fast. But i can only guess without seeing the machine. 

[mike_belben]

This is my overall worksheet.  I may be wrong on things.  Feel free to point out anything at all you think is different than what i got here.





Pump 4 is still a gray area that i need more info on to say i get it or dont.  Pump 3 is about the most straightforward.





The drafter forgot the labels for the conveyor drive motors, 21 and 22, as well as the drain connections back to tank on the joystick valves, which i added and circled in green.  You cant dead end hydraulic fluid to a motor.  It has to come out and go elsewhere, eventually arriving back at tank.  


The schematic shows neutral valve positions.  At startup the cutting saw and outfeed conveyor should run continuous. Pump 3 pulls from tank, goes through the firewood conveyor.  If it jams the 30 bar bypass lets flow go around the conveyor motor on to the joystick valves in series with the outfeed conveyor motor.  


Before coming to the joystick valves it passes a seemingly pointless 50bar bypass [which makes little sense with a 30bar upstream] thru joystick 2 then joystick 1, both open centered, then back to the return filter and tank.

 Joystick 2 works the saw arbor, upstream of the infeed conveyor so when the saw arbor valve is stroked in either direction,  flow to the infeed conveyor is blocked.  

There is a 30bar relief on the saw cylinder circuit. Lots of reliefs.  No idea if it accurately represents what is truly on the machine. 

[mike_belben]

Pump 2 isnt too bad.  I think theres a 5 spool stack valve 9.1 thru 9.5 that controls 5 cylinders. All 5 sections are open centered at rest but the centers of 9.4 and 9.5 are unique, circled in green.  These 5 valves on the right control the 5 cylinders to the left with the exception of shared control on cylinder 6 in a wonky shared circuit with pump 4.  still a puzzle there. Need more info on sequence.


[Note- i circled the color difference on the spring returns for valve 9 also.  Not sure if it is significant without a legend]







Pump 2 draws from tank and flows essentially into a cross fitting. Theres a 120bar overall circuit relief to tank.  The flow goes to the open center valve block #9 and all exhaust flow from the valve is routed to valve #17.  Also just after pump 2 there is a line to the double check valve at the combining valve [or maybe unloader], 17.  The schematic shows a full line.  But the fluid is routed to a double check valve with pump 1 that both act against a valve face to unblock a passage to tank.  I think these are signal/sensing lines and should be dotted but cant say without seeing the size of the hoses. 






Note that this double check has 2 different system pressures on each side, 120 bar vs 200 bar.  Obviously the 200bar will shuttle the check ball and block the 120 from entering the signal side of valve 17 [applying westward force in the chart, on the spring loaded poppet face, unblocking the tank return passage]


That makes it as if the tee just above pump 2 never existed and all flow will go through valve block 9 then exhaust flow will travel through valve 17 from north to south back to tank.  I think its an unloader.  Sorta strange way to draw one.  


I drew the flow on the pink line from pump1 as one way but now i think it is a reversible flow under different conditions at the combiner/unloader valve 17.   Without the T.O.O. on valve 17 we are looking at only one static state of a very active component. I assume it combines pump 1 and 2 in order to extend the splitter cylinder fastest.  







The APV is another head scratcher.  I expected it to be a bypass dump valve for the rod end fluid to retract the ram faster.  But i dont see any sign of it dumping direct to tank without going through the valve first so thats not a bypass dump. maybe its a regenerative extension circuit to put rod end fluid into the blind end under extension.  I dont know.



One big issue is i cant make this thing work in my head without adding the point circled in green.  Otherwise i can figure how the fluid from pump 1 or 2 ever gets to the splitter cylinder.  With that in place i think it does.  


A simplified sketch of it, deleting the APV.