The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service

Dynamic Green Products Inc.





Author Topic: Insurance - do you need it and how much  (Read 1579 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JRHill

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
  • Location: Upstream of Portland, OR
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2020, 05:21:57 PM »
To the sawyers with part time mill operations. How much are you paying for insurance? Is it smart to have insurance. I am planning on cutting 20 to 30K ft a year. No employees. I am told I should have insurance for when people come and pick up lumber or if I do the odd on site job.  Opinions--- Info---
So we are back to the beginning. You don't need lawyers. You need good neighbors. Lord forbid a neighbor would take you down. I suppose it could happen but probably not a full timer. 

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7355
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2020, 08:32:30 PM »
If I didn't say before, I got a $1 million liability policy again this summer, mainly because we've been delivering a fair amount of bundled firewood to gas stations etc. I worried about the what ifs, me backing my trailer into someone's vehicle or something like that. Around $400 for a year. I called the agent to get coverage added to it for people coming to buy lumber and firewood from the place, she said the propert was already covered  under the general liability. I better look at the fine print on all this in my policy, but I thought that price was very reasonable.
Too many irons in the fire

Online Southside

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Wilsons (Dinwiddie County), VA
  • Gender: Male
  • Have a plan to saw every log you meet.
    • Share Post
    • White Oak Meadows
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2020, 09:20:26 PM »
Folks are loosing their minds these days, neighbor or not, so yea, cover yourself. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Online YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5202
  • Age: 55
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • Take Steps to Save Steps
    • Share Post
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2020, 10:19:41 PM »
First off, I have my insurance through Pennsylvania/Indiana Lumberman's.  They are a member of the Hartford group.

The golden rule of whether your private insurance will cover you is very simple, "Did money change hands?"  If yes, then your private insurance will not pay, period.  Thats all they need to know.  At that point, unless you have business insurance, you have no insurance and will have to pay any restitution out of your pocket.  You don't have to be a real business to get business insurance, you just have to work for money. 

Insurance doesn't have much to do with good neighbors, it has to do with medical bills, and many times the neighbors have nothing to do with it.  For example, your life long, friendly neighbor comes onto your property, or whatever, and somehow hurts themself, and its determined to be your fault.  For example, he trips over your loader arms because you didn't properly warn him, or he crushed a finger while you were helping him load lumber, or a hundred different scenarios.  So he is hurt, and goes to the emergency room, maybe gets a few stitches, maybe much worse, it all costs money, and since he has his own insurance, he gets treated and released.  So now, his insurance company asks how that log fell on him and he says it was while working with you, and they ask if the work was being done as "homeowner barter" or "if money exchanged hands."  He says that he was paying you for the job and then the insurance company says, "Oh, he's doing it for money...."  So then since his insurance company paid all his medical bills, they want their money back, and they want to it back from your insurance company, but you don't have insurance.  Normally, this scenario is no big deal, in the background, your insurance company settles with his insurance company and your friend knows nothing of the goings on.  However, about this point, his insurance company finds out you have no business insurance to settle with, and so they turn around and simply sue you, nothing personal, they just want their money back.  All of it.

If you have a real good neighbor, they will lie for you and say they were cutting firewood in their backyard when the log fell on them, so you get off with just some lost sleep.  Or maybe they tell the truth because if they lie they are committing a crime, and you're in deep poop.

Barbender, generally there is a break point where general liability covers "occasional" traffic onto your personal property.  However, if the amount of people is more than that, general liability only insures if that property is deeded business and if the quantity of people does not go beyond the nebulous amount of "occasional", then retail sellers insurance is required.  So in our case, since we may have a hundred customers a day, we had to redeed 5 acres of our farm as business property, including the driveway, and we had to get retail sellers insurance, as well as general liability.  Not to mention commercial truck insurance.  As you said, check the fine print.  

I will say that nothing has driven the shape of our business as much as the cost and coverage for insurance.      
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline stavebuyer

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
  • Location: KY
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2020, 05:08:15 AM »
I don't have the answer to this but posing the question; "Product liability for furniture and craft type items" such as a slab bench that overturns, a chair that fails, or toxic finish that peels etc. ? 

Offline Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14134
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
    • Share Post
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2020, 05:40:28 AM »
I don't have the answer to this but posing the question; "Product liability for furniture and craft type items" such as a slab bench that overturns, a chair that fails, or toxic finish that peels etc. ?
US situation is different from here, But from what I know about your legal system, I'd say you want a basic liability policy if you sell something. 
It's not a 100% protection, but to sue you, someone has to sue your insurance company first. So they have to win against your insurance company lawyers, and win bigger than your policy covers. If it's another insurance company, chances are they will just settle. 
Different here as accident insurance is universal, so to sue someone for an injury there has to be some extra special negligence involved, the sort that gets you prosecuted under OSH laws anyway. So it hardly ever happens. If you run over someone with your forklift etc, expect to end up in court via Workplace Safety, and a decent chunk of the fine may go to the victim as compensation. But their medical / disability is already covered by the universal insurance. 
It's not perfect, but you don't have to worry about being sued if someone gets drunk and falls off a chair you made. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Online YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5202
  • Age: 55
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • Take Steps to Save Steps
    • Share Post
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2020, 09:15:07 AM »
From the examples you have listed, two are significantly different than "a toxic finish that peels."  

Remember that I am not an insurance salesman, but after a "few" really bad experiences, I started going at all my insurance companies with a Perry Mason intensity, including with the help of a couple hired personal injury lawyers, to help me ask questions.  By the way, if you ever want to really see what your policy covers, enlist and pay a couple lawyers to find the holes and do a hands on site inspection of your operating and facilities.  I did, and it surprised me. Some things I worried about were not a problem, some things I had no idea about were big red flags.

There is a huge coverage condition called "Reasonable Expectation" when buying craft items or visiting sawmills or unimproved sales sites.  The best example is the "tripping on gravel."  If you visit a Wal Mart, are walking in the parking lot and trip on a pothole or gravel, then it is reasonably expected that should not have happened, and the store has the reasonable expectation to keep their paved parking lot well maintained and clean of danger.  So Wal Mart will get sued.  In contrast, since my parking lot is all gravel, is well maintained (as well as gravel can be maintained) then if someone trips and injures themselves, then its reasonably expected that a sawmill will not have a paved parking lot, its reasonably expected that it will be gravel, or other, and its reasonably assumed that it is well maintained.  So therefore, its reasonably assumed that someone tripping on my gravel in my parking lot is not my fault, and so there won't be a case.    

My policy has "End User Coverage" as well as "Mold".  They are specifically spelled out in my policy, if your policy doesn't list it out, it isn't covered.  The end user coverage is for the first two situations, if the craft items fails due to just failing and causing damage or injury.  If you build a bench, and a leg fails, and it was made with good intentions, then it is different than negligence.  If there is a problem, then it is covered.  All is good.  In addition, since it is a craft item, the "Reasonable Expectation" is that it may not be as well built as a professional piece of furniture. A professionally built piece of furniture should not reasonably expected to fail, and so would be covered under end user coverage or general liability.  

If a toxic substance is being used and it fails, then that is a different matter entirely.  A toxic substance should never be used for consumer general use without significant notification to the user of what was used, and must be used "on label."  If a toxic substance is used, then by law it must be accompanied by a Safety Data Sheet as well as other instruction, similar to the warnings on paint cans, pesticides, and such.  I'm not sure of which toxic substance isn't rendered inert with use, but if one was, like maybe a polyurethane from Lowes that was used under its original intent, i.e. to finish furniture, and you get sued, I'm pretty sure that your insurance company would not only protect you, but join in general lawsuit filed against the manufacturer.  This is where an insurance company can turn the tables and really protect you.  However, thats very good and specific question to ask a personal injury attorney, or your insurance underwriter.  However, if the toxic finish was used under a not labeled application, for example using diesel fuel as an oil finish, (I've seen it done) then the diesel fuel company is fine and you are in the wrong.  So always use items as they are intended and labeled.  That gets you out of the negligence category.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Nebraska

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
  • Age: 53
  • Location: God's country or pretty close
  • Gender: Male
  • Lurked for quite a while, learning !
    • Share Post
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2020, 11:37:02 AM »
 ::)  Just opened my business insurance policy review letter this morning. Reading this makes me just kinda want to go be a hermit under a rock some where and just avoid dealing with people.

Offline WV Sawmiller

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8662
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Hinton WV
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Green's Sawmill Services
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2020, 02:16:44 PM »
   As further proof I got a letter from my Medicare supplemental insurance provider today asking about my recent treatment (Hand + tablesaw = :(). I called the number and they had 3 questions for me to answer.

1. Did this injury occur as a result of an automobile accident?
2. Did this injury occur at your employer's work-site at work or while on assignment for your employer?
3.Did this injury occur while you were on someone else's property?

   Pretty clear they were looking for someone else to pick up the tab.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Online YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5202
  • Age: 55
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • Take Steps to Save Steps
    • Share Post
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2020, 06:39:16 PM »
Wow, that pretty much sums it up.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30672
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • Share Post
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2020, 08:24:33 PM »
I believe that I would get another supplemental plan with a different company this enrollment period. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline WV Sawmiller

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8662
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Hinton WV
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Green's Sawmill Services
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2020, 08:41:33 PM »
   It's with one of the biggest names in the industry. They didn't say they wouldn't pay - they just seem to be looking for someone else to recoup from. No luck in this case. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Online Southside

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Wilsons (Dinwiddie County), VA
  • Gender: Male
  • Have a plan to saw every log you meet.
    • Share Post
    • White Oak Meadows
Re: Insurance - do you need it and how much
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2020, 09:17:42 PM »
That's pretty standard these days, the insurance company hires another company to track it down. 

I get the same letter every time I go in for anything for my back, and that injury was documented nearly 20 years ago. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Buzz about sawmill insurance vs. bandsaw mill insurance

Started by Kelvin on Sawmills and Milling

66 Replies
18230 Views
Last post January 26, 2012, 09:51:36 AM
by kevin jones
xx
Insurance

Started by Firewoodjoe on Forestry and Logging

1 Replies
504 Views
Last post September 19, 2019, 09:54:05 PM
by nativewolf
xx
Insurance?

Started by aburnette165 on Sawmills and Milling

2 Replies
515 Views
Last post October 05, 2017, 08:41:43 PM
by irvi00
xx
Do I really need insurance?

Started by Good Feller on Forestry and Logging

24 Replies
5924 Views
Last post September 28, 2008, 08:26:21 PM
by Sawyerfortyish
 


Powered by EzPortal