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Author Topic: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)  (Read 1205 times)

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Offline weimedog

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What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« on: August 23, 2020, 05:19:51 PM »
Spike60 gives his opinion....at the end

Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Offline Real1shepherd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2020, 08:24:40 PM »
Yeah, I read a whole white paper on the difference between marine 2cycle oil mix versus 2cycle oil mix for like chainsaws. The oil designs are profoundly different because of the RPM and the environments they're used in....enough so that you don't want to use marine designed 2cycle oil mix for chainsaws......It's more than just the ratio.

But back in the day when I was using Power Punch in my Huskies for loggin', I also used it for my Johnson outboard as recommended by Power Punch. Power Punch is/was a quasi synthetic oil mix.

Kevin

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2020, 10:09:13 PM »
Years ago it worked as did SAE 30wt oil .Of course the old saws as were the outboards mixed 16 to 1.Maybe my memory is fuzzy but I don't remember fouling the spark plugs .If the high speed on the out boards was set rich for speed runs and you trolled with it it would foul though .Simple enough,pull the lines,lean it out Hit the throttle .Didn't take too long,back to trolling .-----that said the oil is better these days than it was in the 60's .

Offline weimedog

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2020, 10:10:25 PM »
But I certainly got Bob going. I will run out that bit on the saws and then check to see what happens... if anything. . 
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Offline joe_indi

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2020, 11:06:11 PM »
Marine oil is formulated for water cooled engines since they run much cooler, or rather the cylinder and head run cooler. So a marine 2 stroke oil could damage air cooled chainsaw engines, though the vice versa may not happen.
This was something a Stihl engineer warned us about years ago when he was asked about using cheaper marine 2 stroke oil. It was heavily subsidised for the fishing folk who used outboards on smaller fishing boats in our area.

Offline ZeroJunk

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2020, 11:50:18 PM »
My old man heated with wood. He would buy the cheapest Poulan and run it until it quit. Then go buy another cheapest Poulan. Once I gave him a case of QuickSilver and he used it in his saw. I think I was still using Quaker State at 1/2 pint to the gallon and burnt oil for bar oil in my 7-19C Homelite.
Rather amazing how much wood we burnt and sold.

Anyhow, I don't remember a problem with outboard oil for that type service.

Of course saws weren't turning 14,000 and the EPA didn't have them lean to the point of cooking.

Offline Real1shepherd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2020, 11:51:01 PM »
That's part of what I read in the white paper;the marine oil was not designed for the high RPM's of chainsaw and the heat cycle of air cooled chainsaws.

But I'm confident the Power Punch worked in my Johnson outboard at the ratio they specified. I tolled with it for days on end and went WOT from one fishing hole to the next fishing hole. I bet if I opened that engine up, it would look like new.

With Power Punch, I was able to get another six months of life from my commercial saws. Now I use Stihl Ultra.

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Offline weimedog

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2020, 12:35:22 AM »
Yup to all that, done the research and grew up running two stokes from out boards to dirt bikes. Understand the theory and it's nice ti see it spilled out yet again on the boards. But....have a couple of gallons to kill...think "Blng" saw will be the test case...to see if it dies. See if theory matches fact.
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Offline Air Lad

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2020, 03:30:10 AM »
Have used small engine 2 stroke oil in the 70 Evinrude with no issues( old 90's engine, not E-Tec). Would only use marine oil in chainsaw in emergency. Having typed that I would not expect any problems in the short term.

Offline Real1shepherd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2020, 09:16:25 AM »
I think, the inverse would be fine;using chainsaw oil mix at the correct ratio in a marine outboard. Better formulated for abuse and hotter heat cycles.....probably wasteful overkill.....lol.

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Offline Spike60

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2020, 10:19:41 AM »
But I certainly got Bob going. I will run out that bit on the saws and then check to see what happens... if anything. .
Yeah, but I didn't put any of that slurry in my saws. Get that McCulloch adjusted yet? :D
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Offline weimedog

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2020, 12:51:37 PM »
Maybe cut my losses, put the yellow saws on facebook market place?? Generate cash for red projects? Or trade out for red stuff? Or Outboard stuff...:) Either way they won't last. Strike one was the "rebuilt" one we picked up in Oneonta. This one is two and three. Did have good luck with the 797.......but the rest have been just a pain non stop as compared to the "Red" saws.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2020, 02:21:20 PM »
Well Walter you could try the other yellow saws ,Partner .Let me warn you though you'll spend a lot of time researching the parts and finding them .Then again they certainly will carry the mail once to get them all together .I've always said were it easy anybody could do it . 8)

Offline Spike60

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2020, 03:15:28 PM »
Maybe cut my losses, put the yellow saws on facebook market place?? Generate cash for red projects? Or trade out for red stuff? Or Outboard stuff...:) Either way they won't last. Strike one was the "rebuilt" one we picked up in Oneonta. This one is two and three. Did have good luck with the 797.......but the rest have been just a pain non stop as compared to the "Red" saws.
Well, I wouldn't put anymore time into those things. I got rid of all but 2 of mine that seem to run OK.  :)  There are Mac guys that are better at those things than we are. Send 'em to a good home.
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Offline Spike60

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2020, 03:19:21 PM »
Well Walter you could try the other yellow saws ,Partner .Let me warn you though you'll spend a lot of time researching the parts and finding them .Then again they certainly will carry the mail once to get them all together .I've always said were it easy anybody could do it . 8)
I'd like to do that myself. But there are really no Partners is this area; never had a decent dealer around here. Maybe every 4-5 years one might wander into the shop.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2020, 05:34:55 PM »
The Partner concrete saws in this area were very popular but not so the chainsaws .What got me interested is two fold. Rare and able to be modified if so desired .
I think a number of around 100 cc saws probably came on the scene in the PNW a little after they stopped cutting old growth .Lighter and faster than the big reed valve engines or about the size needed with what they were cutting at that time . Fact all the used parts I rounded up plus the two P-100/Mac 1000 came from the PNW .The new parts I found on the internet by cross referencing a K1200 concrete saw which is the same engine .It was a two year project before I got them restored .One I will paint and put on decals ,the other is still in good trim .

Offline Real1shepherd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2020, 11:12:13 PM »
Maybe cut my losses, put the yellow saws on facebook market place?? Generate cash for red projects? Or trade out for red stuff? Or Outboard stuff...:) Either way they won't last. Strike one was the "rebuilt" one we picked up in Oneonta. This one is two and three. Did have good luck with the 797.......but the rest have been just a pain non stop as compared to the "Red" saws.
Well, I wouldn't put anymore time into those things. I got rid of all but 2 of mine that seem to run OK.  :)  There are Mac guys that are better at those things than we are. Send 'em to a good home.
I just came to the realization that some people are just MAC people. Look at Buckin' Billy Ray....I think his blood is yellow. However, when he's into real SERIOUS timber, there's usually a Husky or a Squeal in his hands......LOL.

For someone who was creamed in a horrific loggin' incident and had to crawl to get help, you'd think he'd be a more cautious faller today. But then he wouldn't be Buckin' Billy Ray.........gotta be the most upbeat logger I ever saw........

Kevin

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2020, 04:02:59 AM »
The old Macs you either  love them or hate them .Being a collector/ restorer I have them from Mini Macs to 125c which is 123 cc .The old reed valve engines are not like the more modern piston ported engines .That might be a factor for some people who might get discouraged with them .
The later horizontal cylinder piston ported Macs are not like the more modern vertical cylinder designs either ,another factor .
Never the less this is not to say a 40 year old saw that did a fine job then cannot still do a fine job now.Depends on how you look at it I guess .Like I've said many times before if it were easy anybody could do it . :)

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2020, 10:16:55 AM »
As you know I'm not very smart with power Eguipment. 
I had 2 gallons of Amsoil snowmobile oil left from my snowmobiling days.
Ran it in my 2150, echo  combi , and jonsered combi for years till it was all gone.
They all still run great.
Never ran it in the 2172 as it was gone by then.
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Offline sawguy21

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2020, 11:01:50 AM »
That stuff works fine in a saw. Did you mix it at 100:1?
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2020, 11:34:31 AM »
I participated in a bunch of oil tests with the purpose of seeing what the effect of oil had when used on engines of all kinds, in case the operator was in a situation where they did not have access to the manufacturer recommended oil.  We bought oils and ran engines to destruction.  

The summary is that as long as the viscosities are reasonably correct, there is little difference when engines and oils are used at approximately 80% to 90% of their ratings.  Oil is oil, and all work about the same whether hydrocarbon or synthetic or sold by Autozone or Mobil.  Another general rule is that 90% of engine wear (minus cold start wear) occurs in the last 10% throttle.  At above 90% rating, things change dramatically, and an engine that would run months on one oil would only run days on another.  Thatís where the manufacturing additives really kick in, and make a difference. We experimented with pretty much every oil on the market, including ones from all major retailers and custom houses.  Soot, carbon build up, lead build up, wear due to not enough lead, wear due to not enough phosphorus, wear due to deposits from too much phosphorus, etc usually showed up in the last 10% throttle and rated cylinder head temperatures (CHT).  Of course, running too cold, way under recommended CHT will also cause problems, such as soot buildup.

So running an engine mildly, in its mid power band, CHT and RPM ratings, on any standard or generally suitable oil, wonít really cause damage, itís just that running the ďrightĒ or recommended oil under harsh conditions will better protect the engine.  Case in point, Stihl will double the warranty of their chainsaws if their Silver oil is used rather than their orange oil.  Both will work, both are sold by Stihl, but one will work ďbetter.Ē

Since some engines are derated, they never run in that last 10% CHT, so issues donít even arise, whereas a higher tuned, higher performance engine run to max CHT will see a difference in oil.  

Most oil is refined at the same refineries, so all start as the same basic stock, so generally behave the same, up to a point.  However, most manufacturers spend lots of money to fine tune their additive package for their own specific application, especially when their engine is seeing severe duty.  
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2020, 10:13:39 PM »
FWIW I have used the Walmart brand outboard oil in my 372's at 40 ish : 1, with pump 87 gas, for years and have never wrecked a piston nor fowled a plug.  I don't use them to CSM but when cutting a big white oak the throttle is buried, they are a tool and used and treated as such.  
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2020, 06:32:05 PM »
Dad and I ran castrol snowmobile oil for years also. Never a problem. 670s and 394s 575s 372s all of them. All logging saws. Now I just buy the husky oil in the gallon jugs for convenience. But still way more money than castrol. 

Offline Real1shepherd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2020, 07:57:51 PM »
I tried that Amsoil  100:1 mix. Smoking, stinking mess....never again.

It didn't hurt anything, but I bailed before doing any long term tests. think_not 

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2020, 12:19:20 AM »
Wal Mart, Auto Zone, Oreilyís, TSC, etc, all had oils sourced and rebranded from major manufacturers, and there wasnít a dimes bit of difference between them and the original API base stock.  They are just very good, rebranded, name brand oils.  Not great oils, but certainly good oils.

An API certified oil meets minimum criteria and will perform to a minimum baseline performance specification.  However, manufacturers can add additive packages to make it better.  

It may also be interesting to note that the EPA regulates the amount of additives that can be placed in over the counter commercial oils, and that sometimes limits the benefits of the additives.  Phosphorus in diesel oil is a tremendous wear reducing additive, but itís use is limited by the EPA.  Interestingly enough, some military diesel and turbine engine oils are not constrained by the same regulations, and have significantly higher amounts of phosphorus, and thus significantly reduced engine wear.
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2020, 08:28:32 AM »
I knew it all along,more of the great oil debate is on the rise . :D
Amsoil is probably okay but being rather set in my ways I'd be reluctant to use it mixed 100 to 1 .
As far as oil fouling from my experience more times than not it's from leaky oil pumps that use engine impulse to operate rather than fuel mix .Fills the crankcase full of bar lube .Runs like it's  burning soft coal .
I've got one right now that's an oil puffer but I think it's from a failed o-ring seal on a gear driven internal type pump on a Partner P-100 .The saw runs like a scalded ape but it certainly does smoke . I've got a bag of o-rings in transit and that should fix it .There's always a reason for things if you can find it .

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2020, 11:55:50 AM »
I got some military oil at a place that buys from auctions. 
I knew it was much better.
It could be used in many application. According to the label. 
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2020, 09:38:18 PM »
So far my "bling" saw, one of those goofy kits saws built my way has digested 3 tanks of the semi synthetic "quick sliver" out board oil. Still runs. 32:1 :) When I run out, it will go back to a regular mix of mine. a 32:1 with a synthetic from a major saw manufactures brand. The rest got dumped in my lawn mower...( Big Dog, a red Hustler ) SO it smoke a bit but it didn't seize up and quit yet.
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2020, 09:55:35 PM »
 :D I've got an old Ferguson TO- 20 with a big bore kit .It gets all my old saw fuel .Doesn't seem to mind it much .

Offline ehp

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2020, 10:55:26 PM »
WE ran shell XTC-50 oil for years and Im talking 15 to 20 years in all saws cutting in bush and on landing  , ran it at 20-1 with high test gas. Never had a single problem . Saws worked very good on this mixture 

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2020, 12:42:20 AM »
I run 8 parts oil, one parts gas in all my stuff
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2020, 08:30:44 AM »
8 gal oil - 1 gal gas? Whaatt?
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2020, 09:03:06 AM »
My saws are all drinking free mercury outboard oil @32:1 with 87 octane, tuned pretty fat.  

I am big on idle times for cooldown between full load.  I CSM at about 3/4 throttle on the 395xp and pause for cooling quite a bit.  My home made mill vibrates too much for my hands at WOT. 
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2020, 11:42:06 AM »
Somewhere in these threads I think I told the "Wolf's Head Oil" story....a fellow highway guy just using any thing he could find that was needing to go away as two stroke mix. Needless to say the "black" scorched cylinder and then 2.0 with a ( Taiwanese) NPW cylinder were the eventual result. But he ran in that modus opporendi for.......decades. with his 272 before the 1960's era Wolfs Head motor oil reached up and bit the saw and strategy..... I wonder how many other "random" mixes it digested before the final demise?

AND some of the new "wax" based oils :) seem to be really expensive. But something is disconcerting when tearing them down and seeing the waxy deposit all over everything in the bottom end,  always wonder how much lube happens or not on startup with those oils. So I avoid them as well. Despite what I see and hear from the industry experts. No scientific reason...just gut feel.

I still like some of the semi synthetic or ester based oils in my stuff...and some of the out board offerings fit that profile. Husqvarna sold that blend for a long time. One of the Klotz blends, Bel-Ray's H1R, and a pile of others fit that.  I've always checked for carbon deposits. Since the 1970's & dirt bikes. Outboards too. Mixed right and the motor tuned right with a good oil ( of which there are many ) have had good luck so far going on 50 plus years.

Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Offline Real1shepherd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2020, 06:19:06 PM »
Well....everyone has a "story" about some cantankerous character using some horrific blend in 2cycles for decades without ill effects. I can't explain it....but pretty sure if others followed suit, you'd hear about problems.

Before real bar oil came out, we used to mix like SAE 30wt with diesel for 'winter grade' bar oil. Other guys loved to use used motor oils with metal particulates.....felt especially empowered because of the 'free' aspect of the waste oil. No one ever had any time to follow up on their transgressions and see when inevitable failure set in the oil pumps....or maybe they just traded before.

I ran Power Punch in my loggin' Huskies HARD.....and they held up well....much better than before PP. I'd still be using it today, but their website looks dated and I don't believe they've ever tried to improve their product much since the 70's. Oils have come a long way and PP should have tried to stay on top of the heap.....I think they dropped the ball. No quasi-synthetic oil mix from the 70's could rule today unchanged.

Kevin


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