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Author Topic: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)  (Read 1211 times)

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Online YellowHammer

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2020, 11:34:31 AM »
I participated in a bunch of oil tests with the purpose of seeing what the effect of oil had when used on engines of all kinds, in case the operator was in a situation where they did not have access to the manufacturer recommended oil.  We bought oils and ran engines to destruction.  

The summary is that as long as the viscosities are reasonably correct, there is little difference when engines and oils are used at approximately 80% to 90% of their ratings.  Oil is oil, and all work about the same whether hydrocarbon or synthetic or sold by Autozone or Mobil.  Another general rule is that 90% of engine wear (minus cold start wear) occurs in the last 10% throttle.  At above 90% rating, things change dramatically, and an engine that would run months on one oil would only run days on another.  Thats where the manufacturing additives really kick in, and make a difference. We experimented with pretty much every oil on the market, including ones from all major retailers and custom houses.  Soot, carbon build up, lead build up, wear due to not enough lead, wear due to not enough phosphorus, wear due to deposits from too much phosphorus, etc usually showed up in the last 10% throttle and rated cylinder head temperatures (CHT).  Of course, running too cold, way under recommended CHT will also cause problems, such as soot buildup.

So running an engine mildly, in its mid power band, CHT and RPM ratings, on any standard or generally suitable oil, wont really cause damage, its just that running the right or recommended oil under harsh conditions will better protect the engine.  Case in point, Stihl will double the warranty of their chainsaws if their Silver oil is used rather than their orange oil.  Both will work, both are sold by Stihl, but one will work better.

Since some engines are derated, they never run in that last 10% CHT, so issues dont even arise, whereas a higher tuned, higher performance engine run to max CHT will see a difference in oil.  

Most oil is refined at the same refineries, so all start as the same basic stock, so generally behave the same, up to a point.  However, most manufacturers spend lots of money to fine tune their additive package for their own specific application, especially when their engine is seeing severe duty.  
YellowHammerisms:

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If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Southside

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2020, 10:13:39 PM »
FWIW I have used the Walmart brand outboard oil in my 372's at 40 ish : 1, with pump 87 gas, for years and have never wrecked a piston nor fowled a plug.  I don't use them to CSM but when cutting a big white oak the throttle is buried, they are a tool and used and treated as such.  
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Offline Firewoodjoe

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2020, 06:32:05 PM »
Dad and I ran castrol snowmobile oil for years also. Never a problem. 670s and 394s 575s 372s all of them. All logging saws. Now I just buy the husky oil in the gallon jugs for convenience. But still way more money than castrol. 

Offline Real1shepherd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2020, 07:57:51 PM »
I tried that Amsoil  100:1 mix. Smoking, stinking mess....never again.

It didn't hurt anything, but I bailed before doing any long term tests. think_not 

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2020, 12:19:20 AM »
Wal Mart, Auto Zone, Oreilys, TSC, etc, all had oils sourced and rebranded from major manufacturers, and there wasnt a dimes bit of difference between them and the original API base stock.  They are just very good, rebranded, name brand oils.  Not great oils, but certainly good oils.

An API certified oil meets minimum criteria and will perform to a minimum baseline performance specification.  However, manufacturers can add additive packages to make it better.  

It may also be interesting to note that the EPA regulates the amount of additives that can be placed in over the counter commercial oils, and that sometimes limits the benefits of the additives.  Phosphorus in diesel oil is a tremendous wear reducing additive, but its use is limited by the EPA.  Interestingly enough, some military diesel and turbine engine oils are not constrained by the same regulations, and have significantly higher amounts of phosphorus, and thus significantly reduced engine wear.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2020, 08:28:32 AM »
I knew it all along,more of the great oil debate is on the rise . :D
Amsoil is probably okay but being rather set in my ways I'd be reluctant to use it mixed 100 to 1 .
As far as oil fouling from my experience more times than not it's from leaky oil pumps that use engine impulse to operate rather than fuel mix .Fills the crankcase full of bar lube .Runs like it's  burning soft coal .
I've got one right now that's an oil puffer but I think it's from a failed o-ring seal on a gear driven internal type pump on a Partner P-100 .The saw runs like a scalded ape but it certainly does smoke . I've got a bag of o-rings in transit and that should fix it .There's always a reason for things if you can find it .

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2020, 11:55:50 AM »
I got some military oil at a place that buys from auctions. 
I knew it was much better.
It could be used in many application. According to the label. 
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls Riehl Steel edger,F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2020, 09:38:18 PM »
So far my "bling" saw, one of those goofy kits saws built my way has digested 3 tanks of the semi synthetic "quick sliver" out board oil. Still runs. 32:1 :) When I run out, it will go back to a regular mix of mine. a 32:1 with a synthetic from a major saw manufactures brand. The rest got dumped in my lawn mower...( Big Dog, a red Hustler ) SO it smoke a bit but it didn't seize up and quit yet.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2020, 09:55:35 PM »
 :D I've got an old Ferguson TO- 20 with a big bore kit .It gets all my old saw fuel .Doesn't seem to mind it much .

Offline ehp

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2020, 10:55:26 PM »
WE ran shell XTC-50 oil for years and Im talking 15 to 20 years in all saws cutting in bush and on landing  , ran it at 20-1 with high test gas. Never had a single problem . Saws worked very good on this mixture 

Offline donbj

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2020, 12:42:20 AM »
I run 8 parts oil, one parts gas in all my stuff
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Offline Tacotodd

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2020, 08:30:44 AM »
8 gal oil - 1 gal gas? Whaatt?
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2020, 09:03:06 AM »
My saws are all drinking free mercury outboard oil @32:1 with 87 octane, tuned pretty fat.  

I am big on idle times for cooldown between full load.  I CSM at about 3/4 throttle on the 395xp and pause for cooling quite a bit.  My home made mill vibrates too much for my hands at WOT. 
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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2020, 11:42:06 AM »
Somewhere in these threads I think I told the "Wolf's Head Oil" story....a fellow highway guy just using any thing he could find that was needing to go away as two stroke mix. Needless to say the "black" scorched cylinder and then 2.0 with a ( Taiwanese) NPW cylinder were the eventual result. But he ran in that modus opporendi for.......decades. with his 272 before the 1960's era Wolfs Head motor oil reached up and bit the saw and strategy..... I wonder how many other "random" mixes it digested before the final demise?

AND some of the new "wax" based oils :) seem to be really expensive. But something is disconcerting when tearing them down and seeing the waxy deposit all over everything in the bottom end,  always wonder how much lube happens or not on startup with those oils. So I avoid them as well. Despite what I see and hear from the industry experts. No scientific reason...just gut feel.

I still like some of the semi synthetic or ester based oils in my stuff...and some of the out board offerings fit that profile. Husqvarna sold that blend for a long time. One of the Klotz blends, Bel-Ray's H1R, and a pile of others fit that.  I've always checked for carbon deposits. Since the 1970's & dirt bikes. Outboards too. Mixed right and the motor tuned right with a good oil ( of which there are many ) have had good luck so far going on 50 plus years.

Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

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Re: What About Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil In Saws?? :)
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2020, 06:19:06 PM »
Well....everyone has a "story" about some cantankerous character using some horrific blend in 2cycles for decades without ill effects. I can't explain it....but pretty sure if others followed suit, you'd hear about problems.

Before real bar oil came out, we used to mix like SAE 30wt with diesel for 'winter grade' bar oil. Other guys loved to use used motor oils with metal particulates.....felt especially empowered because of the 'free' aspect of the waste oil. No one ever had any time to follow up on their transgressions and see when inevitable failure set in the oil pumps....or maybe they just traded before.

I ran Power Punch in my loggin' Huskies HARD.....and they held up well....much better than before PP. I'd still be using it today, but their website looks dated and I don't believe they've ever tried to improve their product much since the 70's. Oils have come a long way and PP should have tried to stay on top of the heap.....I think they dropped the ball. No quasi-synthetic oil mix from the 70's could rule today unchanged.

Kevin


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