North American Fires 2020

[Riwaka]

Looks bad. Is there still much locked up forest land?

Oregon Fire (KGW news) with Kate Brown (sounds really bad)
Historic fires continue to burn in Oregon - YouTube

Butte County, California (ABC10) 
Bear Fire morning update: September 10, 2020 | California Wildfires - YouTube

Washington King5 - very sad
Western Washington wildfire coverage on Wednesday, Sept. 9 at 5 p.m. - YouTube

[Firewoodjoe]

I don't want to get all political and I'm across the nation from it so I don't know the situation but by the sounds of it it's lack of management of logging controlled burns and power lines. 🤷🏼‍♂️ Either way it's a bad deal. Lots of loss. 

[Riwaka]

Detroit, Oregon - housing, church, rv park etc leveled 

Oregon woman describes wildfire devastation in her hometown of Detroit - YouTube

Makes you think what would you take apart from the id, insurance certs, photos, pets, etc? If you had to get out in a hurry. 

[mike_belben]

Sad for all. Hope you folks are all safe out there. :(

[quilbilly]

I live about 15 miles from a small fire. You would have a hard time understanding the mismanagement. Basically the Sierra club controls the forest service. I believe @Skeans1  is really close to a big fire. The one near me is small.

I have a friend who runs an engine working on the chickamin fire, we just drove from glacier NP and visibility is terrible. We can see from our house right now about a half mile. Normally we can see up to 15 or so. 

[Skeans1]

@quilbilly 
We aren't close to any last I saw the county I live in and one other to the west are the only two that don't have any fires going right now. My in-laws live not too far off 205 north of Oregon City and they have a level one evacuation notice right.

This was shot Tuesday morning at home at 7am

 Well this was shot on Thursday at 630 pm looking towards Clackamas Town Center visibility was a mile at best.

[Skeans1]

I don't want to get all political and I'm across the nation from it so I don't know the situation but by the sounds of it it's lack of management of logging controlled burns and power lines. 🤷🏼‍♂️ Either way it's a bad deal. Lots of loss.

Most of this is decades in the making from Spotted Owl that shut down a lot of the land out here that's what's burning is Federal/State ground. As to the cause of the fires a lot of these have been burning since August from a lightning storm we had. To the controlled burns that's pretty much a no no because of the big city around us and Doug Fir doesn't survive fire like pine do.

[BAN]

I have 2 modules falling danger trees now on the Cold Springs fire in NE Wa(200,000 acres) We went from a mild fire season to historically bad with one 60mph wind storm Monday.  Its devastating.  The road we are working on has 20 burned homes and 600 burned power poles. The back end of road people are told they will have power by February. Fortunately only 1 death so far. No rain in site and no resources if there is one. My 4 guys are the only fallers on the whole fire. Could be here until snow.

[quilbilly]

On the way back from Montana we drove highway 20 most of the way. Right next to some of the big fires in Washington. I reckon pretty close to you. 

They aren't fighting the mt Lena fire near us and to be honest I hope they don't. It's the only way they'll ever log the ONF is with a salvage sale. There isn't anyone near the fire anyway. Let it burn till it rains in October. 

We are shutdown out here for falling timber. Do you still have to take classes to fight fire as a contractor or will they just let you do it now, when there is so much need 

[BAN]

Hwy 20 is very close to here. You do have to be red card trained but in 2015 they put classes on as soon as fires started bad and equipment guys got out fast. They've changed specs on calling guys and equipment out but not for the better. There is no overhead to run these fires right now though. If you don't have someone to manage the fire more equipment doesn't help. Its really a catastrophe and could get worse if we get more starts. Theres 250 firefighters on this fire and would normally be 700-900. 

[Riwaka]

Fireline - 1 minute film

FIRELINE - YouTube


Crazy/ies allegedly harming power poles near vegetation - Wa 08/2020 (need some rural microphones like the gunshot microphones?)
'Very dangerous': Police and FBI investigate power poles cut with chainsaw in Snohomish County - YouTube

[Ron Scott]

Very sad!

[BAN]

The fire we are on was arson but most fires up here were a result of 60mph winds at beginning of driest time of year. Its so different fighting fires now than even ten years ago. So many people are building in high fire areas. More people equals more fires. The Colville national forest has upped its cut to 100 million feet a year so minds are changing quickly about managing forests but we are 20 years from being in a safer place.

[Riwaka]

John Spenser - strategy update - Beachie Creek Fire, Oregon, September 2020. 

Oregon wildfires: Update on Beachie Creek fire - YouTube

[quilbilly]

The fire we are on was arson but most fires up here were a result of 60mph winds at beginning of driest time of year. Its so different fighting fires now than even ten years ago. So many people are building in high fire areas. More people equals more fires. The Colville national forest has upped its cut to 100 million feet a year so minds are changing quickly about managing forests but we are 20 years from being in a safer place.

I'd like to see ONF just get to ten. Where is all that wood gonna go? Only three to four mills within a couple hours right? Vaagen, boise and doesn't Idaho forest group have one? Either way it's a good start. Be safe out there.

[BAN]

The fire we are on was arson but most fires up here were a result of 60mph winds at beginning of driest time of year. Its so different fighting fires now than even ten years ago. So many people are building in high fire areas. More people equals more fires. The Colville national forest has upped its cut to 100 million feet a year so minds are changing quickly about managing forests but we are 20 years from being in a safer place.

I'd like to see ONF just get to ten. Where is all that wood gonna go? Only three to four mills within a couple hours right? Vaagen, boise and doesn't Idaho forest group have one? Either way it's a good start. Be safe out there.

Vaagens has two(colville and usk). Boise has two in Kettle Falls and one in Arden. Theres also a small cedar mill north of Kettle Falls and several mills in North Idaho. Canadians have been buying peelers up in Northport last two years also. About 4-5 years ago all the Colville national forest cut was around 15-20 million a year but switching to these new stewardship sales has really changed the game. State of Idaho is try to take over the management of there national forests but haven't heard where that is going. Safety is always first on a fire :D

[mike_belben]

glad you and the family are safe skeans, be careful.

[Nebraska]

I hope they catch the (appropriate terms not germane to forum use here  so... insert your own) people who are cutting power poles with chainsaws.  What kind of person does that, blows my mind.....

[mike_belben]

Well, in the 1990s it was called monkey wrenching and itd be your eco-warriors doing it.  Same people who sat in trees for weeks and drove spikes in the prevent logging.

I dont know anything about this specific pole cutter but they are out there.  "EarthFirst and "The ReWilding institute" comes to mind.  Probably the same dozen kooks under their tenth new name by now.  Basically the radicalized underground moonbat wing of sierra club type groups.


I can never watch this without laughing. 
EarthFirst Mourning Loss of a Tree - Crying & Screaming - YouTube

[Nathan Harp]

It is not the lack of forest management that is causing this.  There were more trees 200 years ago weren't there.  

I agree that fire suppression has led to too much fuel, making the fires more devastating, where old growth could handle it.  
If there is mismanagement of the land to blame, it is not the wooded land that was mismanaged in the last 50 years, more like the last 50-150; and building homes and towns deeper into the forests brings more attention for sure.   

It is climate change, plain and simple.  Don't let your politics get in the way of reason and facts.  
The cases of arson are unfortunate, but you can't scapegoat this to a few bad acts.

Science denial and politically pointing the blame definitely wont help anything.  
Our education systems have failed us.  

We all know that logging is appropriate, and it is best done along with a scientific planning for the immediate and long term future of the land.  
I seriously doubt that an increase in cutting in the last 20 years would have had any deterrent to what we are seeing now.    

[BradMarks]

No.  It is not that simple.  Were people talking climate change in1910 (thereabouts) when Northern Idaho burned up, and hillsides still today with no trees to speak of?  How about the Tillamook Burn (1933), again in the 40's?  The Oxbow burn, while I was in high school (I'm 66)?.  And the answer of "we didn't know about climate change then" falls on deaf ears.  Weather patterns, long term, decades long, change, back and forth. When was the last ice age?  Not that long ago in terms of the earths existence. The end.

[quilbilly]

It is not the lack of forest management that is causing this.  There were more trees 200 years ago weren't there.  

I agree that fire suppression has led to too much fuel, making the fires more devastating, where old growth could handle it.  
If there is mismanagement of the land to blame, it is not the wooded land that was mismanaged in the last 50 years, more like the last 50-150; and building homes and towns deeper into the forests brings more attention for sure.  

It is climate change, plain and simple.  Don't let your politics get in the way of reason and facts.  
The cases of arson are unfortunate, but you can't scapegoat this to a few bad acts.

Science denial and politically pointing the blame definitely wont help anything.  
Our education systems have failed us.  

We all know that logging is appropriate, and it is best done along with a scientific planning for the immediate and long term future of the land.  
I seriously doubt that an increase in cutting in the last 20 years would have had any deterrent to what we are seeing now.    

Maybe that's true where you are, it simply isn't true in the PNW. Forest management is non-existent. From decommissioning hundreds of miles of road, to not even having salvage sales it's ridiculous. There is literally millions of BF of blow down in the ONF that is being left to rot that would've been salvaged pre 1990. 
Climate change is neither pure nor simple and is an easy scapegoat for anyone who likes to point fingers. Perhaps you should keep your politics out of it? 
Maybe you could enlighten us on how not cutting more in the last 20 years wouldn't have helped. Or how logging 50-150 years ago made today's problems worse. Please tell me how my local branch of the forest service is managing correctly. 

[clearcut]

The situation, in California at least, is all that, and more – it's complicated. We are here now - how do salvage this relationship?

First consider the scale – 33 million forested acres in a state of 105 million acres, most of which are fire adapted vegetation. Many of those acres have people living in close proximity. In a Mediterranean climate where it essentially does not rain between April and October. 

Nearly all of the non forested acres are infected with non-native annuals that go dormant by June, providing nearly unlimited fine fuel, everywhere. These engulf the native fire adapted species. This is the ecosystem that will respond to most disturbance - grazing, light fire, or heavy fire. 

The forested acres are in annual drought stress that starts dormancy. Evergreens are shedding less productive needles heavily, draping them over the understory. More fine fuels, vertically spaced.

High pressure holds over much of the state all summer, heating and drying the vegetation. By September or October the early storms start breaking through with high wind, lightening rich, moisture deficient storms. 

Current prediction is that these conditions are likely to worsen.

So you have a constant flow, of fine fuels, well distributed across much of the state. At this time, there is no ready market for all of this annual biomass. The cost of treating this biomass is enormous and ongoing. 

A very long history of fire suppression has increased fuels in many areas that they are difficult to treat by prescribed burning. In addition, California is a strict liability state - you start it - you pay to put it out plus all the damage in between - oh and by the way, if you are rural your fire insurance is cancelled. If you do mange to get a few acres in prescription, air quality is more than willing to shut you down until you can no longer hope to meet a prescription, wasting hours of time and thousands of dollars.

And welcome to California - here are the rules: no you don't won't to go there. California has incredibly detailed environmental laws, regulations, rules, and agencies, boards, and certifications to guide you on your management journey. The politics involved to change these rules are incomprehensible to me at least. 

And people are stupid, see above. But not only the arsonists, consider the campers who have to have s'mores on the hottest Labor Day recorded, and the BLM crew mowing with a relative humidity of about 14%...

Progress is being made. People are aware. There appears to be action on encouraging more prescribed burning. Fire Safe Councils and Fire Wise communities are gaining traction getting local communities to improve defensible space. 

The feds have established and maintain defensible fuel profile zones - fuel breaks - and work closely with industry to extend continuous protection across ownerships. Industry is also motivated to establish and maintain these.

I don't enjoy it, but the power company cuts the power on its aging equipment for a few days when fire conditions warrant - Public Safety Power Shutoff PSPS. Prefer running the generator for a couple of days, to burning up. Last year they were ridiculous - too often, too long, but this year they have improved their weather prediction and system isolation so it is better. PSPSs cost them a lot of money, so hopefully they will be motivated to improve the infrastructure. 

[mike_belben]

How does a power plant shutdown help reduce fires?




Seems to me if you dont want one huge, unmanagable fire, youd better be having lots of routine small ones.  

[Ianab]

How does a power plant shutdown help reduce fires?

Seems to me if you dont want one huge, unmanagable fire, youd better be having lots of routine small ones.  

In the conditions described it's impossible to have a small managed fire, ANY fire that starts for ANY reason becomes unmanageable if it's not caught in the first few minutes.