persimmon holes and powder

doc henderson · October 16, 2020, 07:30:34 PM

tiny holes in persimmon. I had milled a yard persimmon tree for a guy named Tom. He also had a tree nursery, and knew his trees. he had air dried the wood, but later found these holes. this was milled in 2018. I know cause I do not charge, but he was kind enough to give me a gift certificate. I went to get a couple trees from him (a lilac tree and a maple). he had told me he put the boards under plastic, and put bug bombs in there. we had talked about heat treating, and he showed me the wood. he has a beautiful daughter named Scout, and he wanted to make her a chest. anyway, here are pics of the wood. i think it is dry enough the borers are done, and I did not see any new powder so maybe the 5 bug bombs he put under the plastic did its job. thoughts. is it safe to build with. i did not take a moisture meter, inside a shop. big worry is the bugs, and do we need to heat treat to be safe.

the tracks on the flat surface looks like the bored out between the boards after sawn, and for sure no evidence of them while sawing. the holes appear to be 3/32 inch diameter. @GeneWengert-WoodDoc @WDH @Southside @YellowHammer

WDH · October 16, 2020, 08:05:25 PM

Damage from more than one beetle. But, the bad news is that one of them is in fact the lyctid powderpost beetle. The last pic shows the edge of the board and you can see the small frass filled tunnels. The other boring beetles that made the larger holes are most likely gone now, but the PPB's may not be. They can hang around for several years and then emerge. Typically, bug bombs do not penetrate into the wood where the beetle eggs and larvae are, so the bug bombs might not have been effective. As you told him, the sure fire answer is heat. PPB's sure love persimmon.

Boracare which is disodium octaborate tetrahydrate, the chemical in Timbor and Solubor, with some other stuff like glycol is supposed to be able to penetrate the wood but I have never used it as a remedial treatment.

doc henderson · October 16, 2020, 08:33:50 PM

so 160° F overnight, or what do you recommend. 133° internal?
the wood is from a small tree, and about 3 feet long overall. so he is able to make a small container and add some halogen lights.

doc henderson · October 16, 2020, 08:37:43 PM

Thanks Danny!

WDH · October 16, 2020, 08:50:53 PM

I would certainly be happy with 160 degrees for a full night for small pieces of wood.

scsmith42 · October 17, 2020, 07:29:42 PM

Doc, I have an excerpt from FWW magazine that instructs how to make a home sterilization chamber. It's pretty simple.

If you'd like a copy, send me a pm with your email address.

Scott

doc henderson · October 17, 2020, 09:02:00 PM

Tom and his daughter Scout brought the wood over today. I was able to get it into my blanket and fluid warmer that just so happens to go to 160° F. it was started at about 10 am, and will come out in am. thanks scsmith!

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · October 18, 2020, 08:06:31 AM

One comment about borate...it is a water solution. The liquid water carries the borate into the wood, but if the liquid water dries, then the borate stops moving. So, on air dried wood, orate is not effective enuf to eliminate the critters unless applied again and again until the core gets wet.

Bug bombs do penetrate the wood somewhat, but the gas disappears before it can attack the eggs or larva that are not active. It certainly stops those at or near the surface that are coming out to breed, which is important, but is less effective on younger insects deep in the wood. With the large number of holes, the insects are likely of all ages.

Overall, persimmon is very attractive to a variety of powderpost beetles, including lyctid and ambrosia. It does seem like you have several different species. If these were active prior to sawing, we would see a lot of holes cut lengthwise...I see maybe one on all the pictures.

doc henderson · October 19, 2020, 12:11:52 PM

update. after all the advice for heat, i thought we could squeeze this little bundle in my fluid and blanket warmer i bought on a government auction, from Fort Riley.

set at 160°F overnight. did not initially see any bugs and figured they werre eggs or larva. i did see a few black specks on the floor, so took a pick on a paper with a 1/4 inch grid. very tiny.

any idea what it is, and yes looks to dry to eat.

WDH · October 19, 2020, 07:43:34 PM

A gigantic, mutated, Corona Virus.

doc henderson · October 19, 2020, 08:12:51 PM

:D :D :D sorry only 3.!

doc henderson · October 20, 2020, 10:46:55 AM

anyone have an idea of which bug this is?

WDH · October 20, 2020, 08:17:12 PM

Does not look like a boring beetle. May be just a hitchhiker that got caught in a heat wave.

doc henderson · October 20, 2020, 08:27:22 PM

thanks Danny.

caveman · October 20, 2020, 10:37:25 PM

I looked around at insect larvae pictures last night and did not come up with a good answer. The shape and eyes remind me of the Asian citrus psyllid but the spikes and location would rule that out.

doc henderson · October 21, 2020, 05:51:53 AM

the size seems to fit the holes. thanks for the thoughts. I guess as long as they are dead, that is the main thing. it was in the dust on the floor of the heater. i blew everything out prior to heating this wood, so presumptively it came from the wood.

farmfromkansas · October 21, 2020, 07:45:57 AM

Doc, would you mind telling us more about this blanket and liquid contraption that goes up to 160 degrees? What auction site did you purchase it on?

WDH · October 21, 2020, 07:48:09 AM

Doc, presumptively?

Cause and effect,
Chain of events,
All this chaos makes perfect sense :D.

doc henderson · October 21, 2020, 09:27:51 AM

you know how we are...

I "believe" it came from a hole in the wood. It must be mobile to get out in the heat. @WDH I appreciate that you think this is an exciting insect. (not boring). and you mentioned a hitchhiker.
I have bought a few things on the government liquidation site. I have 4 mbu heaters used by the military to heat food in modular kitchens. we used them to warm a meal tent in winter campouts. usually get good deals, but they have stopped doing it as much. I got the flhids and blanket warmer from Fort Riley. I was told it was the last auction they would have. all hospitals have units to warm IV fluids so that you do not drop a persons body temp if you give say 3 liter quickly. If people feel cold a warm blanket makes them feel better. that is why hospitals have them. I think I paid 100 bucks. spent a half day going to get it. It was on base, so my buddy who went along, could not enter as his birthday was wrong on his ID. I use it often to speed off gassing of finishes, so it speeds up finish time. I can also dry wood quicker. this is the first heat treating I used it for. It was several thousand dollars new. they had built a new hospital on base, and this one was no longer needed.

these are engravings that some member may recognize. with the heater set at 120°F I could recoat with spray poly about every 30 minutes.

farmfromkansas · October 21, 2020, 07:48:28 PM

Thanks Doc. I was watching those auctions for a while, did not see anything very interesting. Probably be ten years before they sell another warmer like that. Cool engravings.