iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Sloppy day

Started by Jeff, November 25, 2020, 10:54:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jeff

5" of snow, now rain all day got me to go in the polebarn and get a task taken care of. Converting my 6volt 8N to 12v so I have a dependable starting tractor this winter.

Don't know why I'd been putting it off. Ive had the kit for months. If I had to do it again,  I could do it in a 3rd the time now.  :) it was actually an enjoyable job.

8n startup after 12v conversion. - YouTube



 

 

 

I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

SwampDonkey

You da man! smiley_clapping
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

celliott

My brother converted his Farmall H this summer. Said, why the heck didn't I do this sooner?
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

ellmoe

My first car was a "hand me down "  '63  Volkswagen beetle with a 40 hp gas engine. For the people that remember catalogs and Sears & Roebuk ( sp? ) , you could order complete engines and many other parts from their catalog. Anyway , the car had a 6 volt system and a generator. The car always started , no problems there , however , vehicle inspections were a headache. Between the 6 volts and a generator, instead of an alternator, the headlights just could not meet the minimum brightness needed to pass the inspections . No matter how fast my 16 year old self would rev the little engine while we sat in the inspection bay it would never reach the minimum illumination required . I'd sit in the car staring at the big circular dial with the minimum illumination marked with a big red line .No matter how hard I pushed on the foot throttle and willed the lights to get a little brighter , the indicator hand would just barely approach the minimum. Fortunately , in those days , you could go from inspection station to inspection station till you could find a sympathetic inspector  He  would shake his head , look at me , I'd shrug my shoulders and look at him. He'd look at me  , shake his head again , shrug his shoulders and pass me through. Ah , the joys of youth and poverty! I wish I still had that bug , but I'm happy to have 12 volts! 
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

Wood Shed

My tractors are a mixture of six and twelve volt models but all have generators.  I have found that a 6V system will perform as expected when all else is near perfect, meaning good 00 cables with clean connections and generator that will charge a good battery.  In my experience keeping a generator charging is the challenge not the voltage but your 12V system with alternator is a much better system on tractors that operate at full throttle most of the time.  

Jeff, your alternator looks brand new or at least very clean.  My old green tractors will barely spin an alternator fast enough to keep a battery charged especially on parade tractors.
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." -Greek Proverb

Jeff

The newer generation 1 wire delco alternators only need 600 rpm to charge. I bought the entire kit from yesterdays tractor a few months ago for $150.  Alternator, brackets, new wire harness and resister, which I did not use because I switched out the coil with a 12v one I got from @Harold .  

Usually when I need a tractor in the winter here in Michigan it's cucu co-weld and this should help.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Corley5

That's the same kit we put on our 8N this fall.  Makes a big difference  8) 8) 8)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Southside

Nice job.  Personally I prefer my tractors not have spark plugs, but I love the wall coverings behind the tractor!!  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Tom King

.....and power steering.

I did a lot of work with my 8N though.  I sold it to a girl with an even older manure spreader behind it.  As far as I know, she's still using it.

barbender

I was digging on Jeff's wallcoverings, too! 😁
Too many irons in the fire

Jeff

I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

chet

Jeff you'll hafta be a little more judicious with the choke this winter. The 8N will flood much quicker spinning over faster.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

hedgerow

Those 12V conversions on those 8N's really make a nice set up. I have changed a bunch of 6 volt tractors over to 12V in the last forty plus years. 

Jeff

I've got an issue I have to figure out. I'm thinking it may be a starter button. The solenoid keeps kicking in and out if the engine fails to fire and the key is on. It looks like engine run on when it does it. I can't imagine how ekse it could stay energized. 
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

chet

Sounds like it my be the starter bendix. A weaker bendix will show up quicker when you are spinning it over faster with 12 volts as opposed to 6 volts. Can you get a video with sound, it would be easier to tell if that's it.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Jeff

It was a wire wrong on the key switch.  So I get that right, put the tools away, and now it spits and sputters when you try to give it throttle. Starts instantly.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Tacotodd

Remember your 3 legged stool: spark, fuel, compression!

They have to be the right amount and right time to work, on any internal spark combustion engine engine.
Diesel is only slightly different.
Trying harder everyday.

Jeff

It ran fine until now. Im wondering if the 12v ate the points. I swithed out the 6v coil for a 12v system so I didnt have to use the resistor. Perhaps the poins and condenser failed?
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Tacotodd

It's possible, but I'm not leaning that direction. 

How long of time between 6V run and 12V run? If any time more than 6mo, I'd be fuel suspect, starting right up or not.

What's your current compression numbers? I've seen good start and run on 120#, just not GREAT power. 

My first vehicle, 74 IH pickup and being a teenager, I hot-rodded that thing. It's a tractor that's interstate legal    :-X
Anyway, its point ignition never gave me BIG problems, but a few. Check the integrity and gap. Condensers are like extremely short term, high voltage (very low amperage) batteries. Replace both if in doubt. ~20 bucks for both at most NAPA. I'm not trying to promote them, that's just where I cut teeth on selling parts, I sold & found LOTS of tractor parts there. 

I'm thinking carburetor internal problem, but I'm not there, hard to tell.
Trying harder everyday.

chet

Is that an early 8n with front mount dist or later with side mount. If it is side mount, is da round can coil you installed internally resisted or not. I'm not positive but pretty sure all the 12 volt top mount coils are externally resisted.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Tacotodd

Yeah, if you run no-resistor coil, you'll need a resistor wire in your system. The coils I sold told you on the coil themselves if they were or not. 

The more I think on it with my personal experience, fuel related. 

Like a chainsaw, filter, lines. Most likely something basic and small. The stuff that drives you crazy!

How's your voltage resistance on the wires?
Trying harder everyday.

Jeff

It is a very old coil. Most likely, non resisted. Fuel is good. Changed the condenser,  the points look okay. It us now backfiring if I try to throttle up. Starts instantly , sits and idles nice.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Magicman

My old 12 volt Ford cars had resistors.  They cranked on 12v and ran (through the resistor) on 6v.  If it cranked and then died immediately when you released the key, you knew that the resistor was open.
98 Wood-Mizer LT40 SuperHydraulic    WM Million BF Club

Two: First Place Wood-Mizer Personal Best Awards
The First: Wood-Mizer People's Choice Award

It's Weird being the same age as Old People

Never allow your Need to make money
To exceed your Desire to provide Quality Service

Tacotodd

Use a 12V internal resistor coil and be done with that part, it won't hurt.
Trying harder everyday.

A-z farmer

Jeff 
On those  6 volt 8n ignition systems seem to get burned up by 12 volts .I put a resistor before the coil but mine is the front mount square coil.It seems those tractors run forever but I have had to replace points ,plugs and condenser many times over the years.Good luck 

Corley5

Throw the points and condenser away and switch it over to electronic. 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Magicman

98 Wood-Mizer LT40 SuperHydraulic    WM Million BF Club

Two: First Place Wood-Mizer Personal Best Awards
The First: Wood-Mizer People's Choice Award

It's Weird being the same age as Old People

Never allow your Need to make money
To exceed your Desire to provide Quality Service

WmFritz

Now I'm thinking I should convert mine. She always starts, but for that first crank or two it's sounds iffy...Especially in the winter. 
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

hedgerow

Quote from: Magicman on November 27, 2020, 07:08:41 PM
Yup:  LINK
This makes a nice set up on the old tractors. I have one on a 3010 JD that's been on it for thirty years or so. If you add a resistor ahead of the coil the back firing will stop. Some will run ok with 12v to the coil and some won't . 

Jeff

This is madness.  New internally resisted coil. Same issue. Starts, wont run right.  Unhook the alternator,  

Put the included resistor in, it wont fire and start. Jump the resistor,  it starts, runs and backfires. remove the jumper from the resister, it sits there and runs and apparently charges fine. So it runs on the resistor but it won't start on the resistor.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Don P

I think Ford's and Dodges, maybe everything  ???, starts on 12 and runs on 6.

Corley5

We put the same 12v conversion kit on our late model side distributor 8N this fall.  We also installed a 12v negative ground Pertronix ignition.  I opted out of their brand coil and went with an internal resistor model from Car Quest and carbon plug wires and new Autolite plugs.  Started right up after we did a valve job too ;) ;D :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Don P

Here's what I'm remembering;


 

Jeff

8n has a 3 pole solenoid. 
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Corley5

I'll have to look at mine.  We did away with the starter mounted solenoid and put one on the "firewall" by the battery.  I don't how many terminals it has  :) 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Gary_C

Jeff, I have been thru the same kind of issues with my IH 574 gas tractor. It's not running now because of engine and valve issues (it needs an overhaul) but in the fall going into winter it would not start nor run right and I would try every combination of coil with and without resistor. In the end I would find that the plugs were fouled some way and a new set of plugs would cure the problem. I think the problem may have to do with the seasonal change in the gas formulation from summer gas to fall gas and then to winter gas. The summer gas is less volatile to slow evaporation and apparently it does not burn as well in cold temps and will foul your plugs even though they don't look bad. So try fresh winter gas and new plugs.

Also many of those older tractors need a change in heat range of the plugs from original for todays gas. 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Don P

Quote from: Jeff on November 29, 2020, 10:33:26 PM
8n has a 3 pole solenoid.
That 4 pole is cheap and will do what you have been jumpering. The ignition switch run position goes to a non resistor coil through the in line resistor, the I post on the ford solenoid also goes to the same post on the coil but shoots it 12V in the crank position.

The 6 volt was I think to cut down on distributor cap wear and arcing, it might be worth checking the condition of those parts.

Jeff

I am beginning to think the alternator is the culprit.  I have been through everything. The only real thing you need to do to make the tractor run right is disconnect the alternator. It then runs fine, starts fine.   I unhooked the wire going from the one wire alternator to the amp meter, and there is over 30volts coming out of the alternator. the meter is correct. It reads 12 coming from the battery.  
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Don P

Hook it back up and check the voltage across the battery terminals both before starting and with it running. You should see an increase of a couple of volts with it running. I think spinning it open circuit it goes wild until it lets the magic smoke out. Or take it off and take it into an auto parts that can hook it up and test it.

Tacotodd

The battery acts as a kind of buffer for easing the voltage spikes. A non buffered alt. will cause an excessive amount of voltage to be seen. 

Like Don P said, magic smoke 💨 
Trying harder everyday.

Jeff

14 with it hooked up, still runs like crap. I cant see anything with the cap or rotor.  I think the plugs are starting to foul now from repeated attempts at running and running poorly. So the alternator is not it.

I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Tacotodd

IF, and this is a big if, IF you can't get it running by PIG ROAST 2021, then you'll have a lot of people that are more than willing to help you out!

But you'll get that thing nailed down before that. We have the utmost confidence in you. After all, you are the midget doctor!
Trying harder everyday.

Jeff

Which, revealed publicly here, for the first time means. "I have very little patience" :)


I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Don P

 :D Auto electric is black magic.

Let me run through what I think you have and an experiment.
I think right now you are running without the ballast resistor? If so I think with the 12 volts, battery only, you are running a hot distributor cap but its working. When the alternator bumps that up a little more the fire is dancing in the cap and hitting several plugs out of sequence.

If all that is right put the ballast resistor back in the circuit. You should then run better but will need to jumper around the resistor to start it. As soon as it fires up remove the jumper. If in that experiment it starts and runs fine, go work it and make sure it performs well under load.

If that all goes well then get the 4 post solenoid and run a wire from its "I" post to the coil + and leave the other wire there as well. That will give it a 12V shot for cranking and resisted voltage when you come off the cranking button.

Or, I'm all wet  :D

Jeff

I already know that ot runs with the resistor, but wont start with it, and I have a 4 peg solenoid here that fits the mustang. Ill try a new cap and rotor first.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Jeff

I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Gary_C

You may have a bad ground on your alternator. Check the continuity of the ground all the way from the alternator to the battery.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Jeff

I have a running working tractor.  Don't know what happened.  I got it running on the jumped resister, removed the jumper and let it run half throttle for 10 minutes. When I shut it off, it niw starts without the jumper, and runs really good. I just came in from plowing. Tractor started up at 15° and never missed a lick in the 40 minutes I was plowing.  I have the electronic ignition here I plan on putting in when I'm confident my gremlin is gone.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Jeff

She started at 8° this morning. Pretty good for a tractor that wouldn't ever start without heat from about october to May before!
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

jb616

Quote from: Jeff on December 03, 2020, 11:31:28 AM
This is the way it is acting.


12 volt conversion issues - YouTube
Not sure it is related but is that an ammeter there on the dash, notice that it goes all wonky when it was misfiring?  I believe that the meter is part of the circuit and could be intermittently working / not working and causing the misfiring??

Jeff

This afternoon I installed the electronic ignition with a flame thrower coil.

Shazam! :)
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Andries

The Ford loader that I have, has a Perkins motor that is plumbed for an air intake flame thrower.
Shazam! . . . that means holy moly, that makes a big difference, right?
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

Jeff

I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Andries

I like that.
How do those Super Heroes like the Michigan winter? Those tights must have electro-heaters built into 'em.
Or, maybe you installed one of these in your Ford . . .
HOW THE FLAME HEATER WORKS ON A PERKINS DIESEL - YouTube 
HOT little item. 
Someone who knows what a real winter is like musta dreamed this up.
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

Jeff

ha! This guy ain't adjusting to the cold as easily this year. I lost my thermal barrier.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Andries

BTW, congratulations on losing a lot of that insulation.
It's a good look on ya.
You'll look like a lean mean loggin' machine when you get that tractor out in the woods.  8)
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

Tacotodd

You also won't have as much to keep it in in the summer. I know because in 2yr time I went from 290 to 190 without trying (you DON'T want to lose it the same way) 
Trying harder everyday.

Jeff

I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

jb616

Love it when they fire right up and purrrr... Merry Christmas!!

chet

I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

jb616

@chet is that a regular cartridge...or is made for the tractor without shot...I would hate to go through a box of shells on a sloppy cold morning if it didn't want to fire :) 

thecfarm

There Jeff, that sounds good. Yea those 6 volt tractors turn over slow, real slow when it's cold. My father never used his much when it was cold. Only a few times to get some wood out. Most winters it sat covered in snow.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

chet

Quote from: jb616 on December 20, 2020, 10:47:12 AM
@chet is that a regular cartridge...or is made for the tractor without shot...I would hate to go through a box of shells on a sloppy cold morning if it didn't want to fire :)
They use 12 Gauge blanks
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

doc henderson

I remember seeing and old movie about an airplane in the desert, and it used a charge to fire the engine. 
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Jeff

Jimmy stewart. Flight of the Phoenix.  One of my most favorite movies.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

SwampDonkey

Just watched it not long ago. Have seen it many times, but a few years go by and it's like a new movie. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chet

I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Andries

Chet, those are terrific videos of the shot shell starters.
Are you hinting that Jeff needs to take a shotgun to his 8N tractor?
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

mike_belben

Sorry im late to the show here.  Glad it sorted itself out.  My experience with pertronix has not been good.  I switched to a full drop in distributor [about $300] because there are no longer any available rebuilt motorcraft or bosch distributors left for the ford kent industrials (ford spec'd unhardened shafts so they all wore out and no one makes new.)  


Anyways i think i bought 3 more ignitors at over $100 each in about 2 years. six hundred neat-o dollars and endless cursing.    And in the process found out there are two experiences were pertronix.  Excellent and terrible.   Some never have one fail and others never have one last.  Yes, they run flawless while they run but are very easy to kill.  There are much cheaper electronic modules out there, pertonix is just good at marketing them.  Their technicians will tell you to do things that are opposite of what their literature says and in either case if it fails again youll still be the one to blame.  


After talking to several ignition builders in several countries i finally gave up on it and managed to find a lucas part number for a ford lotus breaker plate that dropped into the pertronix distributor which is based on a lucas 25D.  So now im back to maintaining breaker points and contemplating a diesel.  


Anyways sorry for rambling as always.  Jeff i think your alternator voltage regulator may have an issue.  If im not mistaken it should be clipping off at 14.7vdc and i bet you are maybe even seeing 3 phase AC voltage coming straight off the winding somehow.  Normally a bridge rectifier clips the negative alternations off.  It may have an intermittent chassis ground.. Im not the best to ask on that but a high voltage like that will eat up your points and cause all sort of backfiring and cylinders dropping off.  Like the other guys said you want a 12v crank and 6v run.  Ballast resistors are all different resistences to tailor this and you gotta add the coils resistance too.  Take your running battery voltage of 12.xx and divide by 2.xx to get your target 6v run voltage.  The cumumative resistance in the circuit needs to be the 2.xx number.  


The terminals in your distributor cap will probably need sanded pretty often too in my experience.  
Praise The Lord

Jeff

Tractor number 2, the 49 was towed in day before yesterday and will drive out today. I rewired it because who ever did the 12volt conversion on it looks like he was the same guy that created the cluster on our mustang.  
Wiring straightened out, adjusted points, cleaned the plugs and a new balast resistor, and a carb adjustment. Also fixed an exaust leak.  Before and after on the wiring.


 

 

 
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

btulloh

Nice.  Looks to be in pretty good shape.  Nice job on the wiring.  Seems like it'd be hard to make a mess out the wiring when there's only about 6 wires on the whole tractor, but I guess the guy must have been good at ratsnests.

Mine's a 49.  I don't love the front-mount distributor, but it doesn't give me any real trouble, so I don't notice most of the time.

Is this tractor now part of your fleet Jeff?  There's no such thing as too many tractors!
HM126

Jeff

I got both tractors about 4 years ago in a swap. I hope to get them both into dependable shape. One for here and one to perhaps to leave at my sister's cabin rather that hauling one back and forth.
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Walnut Beast

My kinda shop. Easy chair and table. Sometimes need to relax and get the visions of the project 

Jeff

Pigroast central it is!
I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Jeff

I can change my profile okay. No errors. If you can,t remove all the extra info in other fields and try.

Andries

Nice video Jeff. . . pocket cam and all that.
The sound of that motor is the best part. It brings back memories of teaching my oldest daughter how to shift a transmission on an 8N. 
Sweaty is a high value machine in the colder parts of the world, where just "starting" is greatly appreciated.   :D
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

Thank You Sponsors!