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Author Topic: Sloppy day  (Read 3648 times)

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Online Jeff

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Sloppy day
« on: November 25, 2020, 10:54:23 PM »
5" of snow, now rain all day got me to go in the polebarn and get a task taken care of. Converting my 6volt 8N to 12v so I have a dependable starting tractor this winter.

Don't know why I'd been putting it off. Ive had the kit for months. If I had to do it again,  I could do it in a 3rd the time now.  :) it was actually an enjoyable job.





 

 

 

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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2020, 06:01:59 AM »
You da man! smiley_clapping
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Offline celliott

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2020, 06:10:33 AM »
My brother converted his Farmall H this summer. Said, why the heck didnt I do this sooner?
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2020, 06:37:27 AM »
 smiley_thumbsup
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Offline ellmoe

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2020, 07:00:56 AM »
My first car was a "hand me down "  '63  Volkswagen beetle with a 40 hp gas engine. For the people that remember catalogs and Sears & Roebuk ( sp? ) , you could order complete engines and many other parts from their catalog. Anyway , the car had a 6 volt system and a generator. The car always started , no problems there , however , vehicle inspections were a headache. Between the 6 volts and a generator, instead of an alternator, the headlights just could not meet the minimum brightness needed to pass the inspections . No matter how fast my 16 year old self would rev the little engine while we sat in the inspection bay it would never reach the minimum illumination required . I'd sit in the car staring at the big circular dial with the minimum illumination marked with a big red line .No matter how hard I pushed on the foot throttle and willed the lights to get a little brighter , the indicator hand would just barely approach the minimum. Fortunately , in those days , you could go from inspection station to inspection station till you could find a sympathetic inspector  He  would shake his head , look at me , I'd shrug my shoulders and look at him. He'd look at me  , shake his head again , shrug his shoulders and pass me through. Ah , the joys of youth and poverty! I wish I still had that bug , but I'm happy to have 12 volts! 
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Offline Wood Shed

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2020, 07:57:03 AM »
My tractors are a mixture of six and twelve volt models but all have generators.  I have found that a 6V system will perform as expected when all else is near perfect, meaning good 00 cables with clean connections and generator that will charge a good battery.  In my experience keeping a generator charging is the challenge not the voltage but your 12V system with alternator is a much better system on tractors that operate at full throttle most of the time.  

Jeff, your alternator looks brand new or at least very clean.  My old green tractors will barely spin an alternator fast enough to keep a battery charged especially on parade tractors.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2020, 08:22:09 AM »
The newer generation 1 wire delco alternators only need 600 rpm to charge. I bought the entire kit from yesterdays tractor a few months ago for $150.  Alternator, brackets, new wire harness and resister, which I did not use because I switched out the coil with a 12v one I got from @Harold .  

Usually when I need a tractor in the winter here in Michigan it's cucu co-weld and this should help.
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Offline Corley5

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2020, 09:52:44 AM »
That's the same kit we put on our 8N this fall.  Makes a big difference  8) 8) 8)
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Offline Southside

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2020, 11:17:17 AM »
Nice job.  Personally I prefer my tractors not have spark plugs, but I love the wall coverings behind the tractor!!  
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2020, 12:16:22 PM »
.....and power steering.

I did a lot of work with my 8N though.  I sold it to a girl with an even older manure spreader behind it.  As far as I know, she's still using it.

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2020, 12:25:00 PM »
I was digging on Jeff's wallcoverings, too! 😁
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2020, 01:41:04 PM »
My flag collection.
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Offline chet

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2020, 01:46:45 PM »
Jeff you'll hafta be a little more judicious with the choke this winter. The 8N will flood much quicker spinning over faster.
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Offline hedgerow

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2020, 09:13:29 AM »
Those 12V conversions on those 8N's really make a nice set up. I have changed a bunch of 6 volt tractors over to 12V in the last forty plus years. 

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2020, 09:24:43 AM »
I've got an issue I have to figure out. I'm thinking it may be a starter button. The solenoid keeps kicking in and out if the engine fails to fire and the key is on. It looks like engine run on when it does it. I can't imagine how ekse it could stay energized. 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2020, 01:30:55 PM »
Sounds like it my be the starter bendix. A weaker bendix will show up quicker when you are spinning it over faster with 12 volts as opposed to 6 volts. Can you get a video with sound, it would be easier to tell if that's it.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2020, 01:43:32 PM »
It was a wire wrong on the key switch.  So I get that right, put the tools away, and now it spits and sputters when you try to give it throttle. Starts instantly.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2020, 02:02:09 PM »
Remember your 3 legged stool: spark, fuel, compression!

They have to be the right amount and right time to work, on any internal spark combustion engine engine.
Diesel is only slightly different.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2020, 02:12:23 PM »
It ran fine until now. Im wondering if the 12v ate the points. I swithed out the 6v coil for a 12v system so I didnt have to use the resistor. Perhaps the poins and condenser failed?
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2020, 02:33:55 PM »
Its possible, but Im not leaning that direction. 

How long of time between 6V run and 12V run? If any time more than 6mo, Id be fuel suspect, starting right up or not.

Whats your current compression numbers? Ive seen good start and run on 120#, just not GREAT power. 

My first vehicle, 74 IH pickup and being a teenager, I hot-rodded that thing. Its a tractor thats interstate legal    :-X
Anyway, its point ignition never gave me BIG problems, but a few. Check the integrity and gap. Condensers are like extremely short term, high voltage (very low amperage) batteries. Replace both if in doubt. ~20 bucks for both at most NAPA. Im not trying to promote them, thats just where I cut teeth on selling parts, I sold & found LOTS of tractor parts there. 

Im thinking carburetor internal problem, but Im not there, hard to tell.
Trying harder everyday.

Offline chet

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2020, 02:45:23 PM »
Is that an early 8n with front mount dist or later with side mount. If it is side mount, is da round can coil you installed internally resisted or not. I'm not positive but pretty sure all the 12 volt top mount coils are externally resisted.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2020, 02:59:02 PM »
Yeah, if you run no-resistor coil, youll need a resistor wire in your system. The coils I sold told you on the coil themselves if they were or not. 

The more I think on it with my personal experience, fuel related. 

Like a chainsaw, filter, lines. Most likely something basic and small. The stuff that drives you crazy!

Hows your voltage resistance on the wires?
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2020, 03:26:22 PM »
It is a very old coil. Most likely, non resisted. Fuel is good. Changed the condenser,  the points look okay. It us now backfiring if I try to throttle up. Starts instantly , sits and idles nice.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2020, 03:41:01 PM »
My old 12 volt Ford cars had resistors.  They cranked on 12v and ran (through the resistor) on 6v.  If it cranked and then died immediately when you released the key, you knew that the resistor was open.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2020, 04:11:36 PM »
Use a 12V internal resistor coil and be done with that part, it wont hurt.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2020, 06:27:42 PM »
Jeff 
On those  6 volt 8n ignition systems seem to get burned up by 12 volts .I put a resistor before the coil but mine is the front mount square coil.It seems those tractors run forever but I have had to replace points ,plugs and condenser many times over the years.Good luck 

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2020, 06:33:15 PM »
Throw the points and condenser away and switch it over to electronic. 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2020, 07:08:41 PM »
Yup:  LINK
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Offline WmFritz

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2020, 02:28:34 PM »
Now I'm thinking I should convert mine. She always starts, but for that first crank or two it's sounds iffy...Especially in the winter. 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2020, 11:08:14 AM »
Yup:  LINK
This makes a nice set up on the old tractors. I have one on a 3010 JD that's been on it for thirty years or so. If you add a resistor ahead of the coil the back firing will stop. Some will run ok with 12v to the coil and some won't . 

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2020, 03:39:12 PM »
This is madness.  New internally resisted coil. Same issue. Starts, wont run right.  Unhook the alternator,  

Put the included resistor in, it wont fire and start. Jump the resistor,  it starts, runs and backfires. remove the jumper from the resister, it sits there and runs and apparently charges fine. So it runs on the resistor but it won't start on the resistor.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2020, 05:12:57 PM »
I think Ford's and Dodges, maybe everything  ???, starts on 12 and runs on 6.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2020, 06:43:57 PM »
We put the same 12v conversion kit on our late model side distributor 8N this fall.  We also installed a 12v negative ground Pertronix ignition.  I opted out of their brand coil and went with an internal resistor model from Car Quest and carbon plug wires and new Autolite plugs.  Started right up after we did a valve job too ;) ;D :)
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2020, 07:05:38 PM »
Here's what I'm remembering;
 

 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2020, 10:33:26 PM »
8n has a 3 pole solenoid. 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2020, 11:14:45 PM »
I'll have to look at mine.  We did away with the starter mounted solenoid and put one on the "firewall" by the battery.  I don't how many terminals it has  :) 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2020, 01:24:35 AM »
Jeff, I have been thru the same kind of issues with my IH 574 gas tractor. It's not running now because of engine and valve issues (it needs an overhaul) but in the fall going into winter it would not start nor run right and I would try every combination of coil with and without resistor. In the end I would find that the plugs were fouled some way and a new set of plugs would cure the problem. I think the problem may have to do with the seasonal change in the gas formulation from summer gas to fall gas and then to winter gas. The summer gas is less volatile to slow evaporation and apparently it does not burn as well in cold temps and will foul your plugs even though they don't look bad. So try fresh winter gas and new plugs.

Also many of those older tractors need a change in heat range of the plugs from original for todays gas. 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2020, 08:05:19 AM »
8n has a 3 pole solenoid.
That 4 pole is cheap and will do what you have been jumpering. The ignition switch run position goes to a non resistor coil through the in line resistor, the I post on the ford solenoid also goes to the same post on the coil but shoots it 12V in the crank position.

The 6 volt was I think to cut down on distributor cap wear and arcing, it might be worth checking the condition of those parts.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2020, 12:45:31 PM »
I am beginning to think the alternator is the culprit.  I have been through everything. The only real thing you need to do to make the tractor run right is disconnect the alternator. It then runs fine, starts fine.   I unhooked the wire going from the one wire alternator to the amp meter, and there is over 30volts coming out of the alternator. the meter is correct. It reads 12 coming from the battery.  
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2020, 05:27:04 PM »
Hook it back up and check the voltage across the battery terminals both before starting and with it running. You should see an increase of a couple of volts with it running. I think spinning it open circuit it goes wild until it lets the magic smoke out. Or take it off and take it into an auto parts that can hook it up and test it.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2020, 05:36:48 PM »
The battery acts as a kind of buffer for easing the voltage spikes. A non buffered alt. will cause an excessive amount of voltage to be seen. 

Like Don P said, magic smoke 💨 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2020, 05:39:51 PM »
14 with it hooked up, still runs like crap. I cant see anything with the cap or rotor.  I think the plugs are starting to foul now from repeated attempts at running and running poorly. So the alternator is not it.

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2020, 06:01:00 PM »
IF, and this is a big if, IF you cant get it running by PIG ROAST 2021, then youll have a lot of people that are more than willing to help you out!

But youll get that thing nailed down before that. We have the utmost confidence in you. After all, you are the midget doctor!
Trying harder everyday.

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2020, 06:13:43 PM »
Which, revealed publicly here, for the first time means. "I have very little patience" :)


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Offline Don P

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2020, 07:15:41 PM »
 :D Auto electric is black magic.

Let me run through what I think you have and an experiment.
I think right now you are running without the ballast resistor? If so I think with the 12 volts, battery only, you are running a hot distributor cap but its working. When the alternator bumps that up a little more the fire is dancing in the cap and hitting several plugs out of sequence.

If all that is right put the ballast resistor back in the circuit. You should then run better but will need to jumper around the resistor to start it. As soon as it fires up remove the jumper. If in that experiment it starts and runs fine, go work it and make sure it performs well under load.

If that all goes well then get the 4 post solenoid and run a wire from its "I" post to the coil + and leave the other wire there as well. That will give it a 12V shot for cranking and resisted voltage when you come off the cranking button.

Or, I'm all wet  :D
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2020, 07:43:50 PM »
I already know that ot runs with the resistor, but wont start with it, and I have a 4 peg solenoid here that fits the mustang. Ill try a new cap and rotor first.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2020, 11:31:28 AM »
This is the way it is acting.


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Offline Gary_C

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2020, 11:43:53 AM »
You may have a bad ground on your alternator. Check the continuity of the ground all the way from the alternator to the battery.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2020, 10:34:03 AM »
I have a running working tractor.  Don't know what happened.  I got it running on the jumped resister, removed the jumper and let it run half throttle for 10 minutes. When I shut it off, it niw starts without the jumper, and runs really good. I just came in from plowing. Tractor started up at 15 and never missed a lick in the 40 minutes I was plowing.  I have the electronic ignition here I plan on putting in when I'm confident my gremlin is gone.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2020, 08:44:05 AM »
She started at 8 this morning. Pretty good for a tractor that wouldn't ever start without heat from about october to May before!
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2020, 01:19:33 PM »
This is the way it is acting.



Not sure it is related but is that an ammeter there on the dash, notice that it goes all wonky when it was misfiring?  I believe that the meter is part of the circuit and could be intermittently working / not working and causing the misfiring??

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2020, 09:35:42 PM »
This afternoon I installed the electronic ignition with a flame thrower coil.

Shazam! :)
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2020, 10:25:59 PM »
The Ford loader that I have, has a Perkins motor that is plumbed for an air intake flame thrower.
Shazam! . . . that means holy moly, that makes a big difference, right?
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2020, 11:16:56 PM »
Shazam! . . . that means holy moly, that makes a big difference, right?
 

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2020, 11:23:29 PM »
I like that.
How do those Super Heroes like the Michigan winter? Those tights must have electro-heaters built into 'em.
Or, maybe you installed one of these in your Ford . . .
 
HOT little item. 
Someone who knows what a real winter is like musta dreamed this up.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2020, 11:27:36 PM »
ha! This guy ain't adjusting to the cold as easily this year. I lost my thermal barrier.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2020, 11:34:02 PM »
BTW, congratulations on losing a lot of that insulation.
It's a good look on ya.
You'll look like a lean mean loggin' machine when you get that tractor out in the woods.  8)
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2020, 04:06:08 AM »
You also wont have as much to keep it in in the summer. I know because in 2yr time I went from 290 to 190 without trying (you DONT want to lose it the same way) 
Trying harder everyday.

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2020, 09:47:39 AM »
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2020, 10:20:31 AM »
Love it when they fire right up and purrrr... Merry Christmas!!

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2020, 10:39:44 AM »
another version of a quick starting tractor  :)

I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2020, 10:47:12 AM »
@chet is that a regular cartridge...or is made for the tractor without shot...I would hate to go through a box of shells on a sloppy cold morning if it didn't want to fire :) 

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2020, 10:49:06 AM »
There Jeff, that sounds good. Yea those 6 volt tractors turn over slow, real slow when it's cold. My father never used his much when it was cold. Only a few times to get some wood out. Most winters it sat covered in snow.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2020, 02:12:02 PM »
@chet is that a regular cartridge...or is made for the tractor without shot...I would hate to go through a box of shells on a sloppy cold morning if it didn't want to fire :)
They use 12 Gauge blanks
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2020, 03:03:49 PM »
I remember seeing and old movie about an airplane in the desert, and it used a charge to fire the engine. 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2020, 04:25:07 PM »
Jimmy stewart. Flight of the Phoenix.  One of my most favorite movies.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2020, 04:49:03 PM »
Just watched it not long ago. Have seen it many times, but a few years go by and it's like a new movie. :D
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2020, 10:05:17 PM »
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2020, 11:11:56 PM »
Chet, those are terrific videos of the shot shell starters.
Are you hinting that Jeff needs to take a shotgun to his 8N tractor?
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2020, 09:20:21 AM »
Sorry im late to the show here.  Glad it sorted itself out.  My experience with pertronix has not been good.  I switched to a full drop in distributor [about $300] because there are no longer any available rebuilt motorcraft or bosch distributors left for the ford kent industrials (ford spec'd unhardened shafts so they all wore out and no one makes new.)  


Anyways i think i bought 3 more ignitors at over $100 each in about 2 years. six hundred neat-o dollars and endless cursing.    And in the process found out there are two experiences were pertronix.  Excellent and terrible.   Some never have one fail and others never have one last.  Yes, they run flawless while they run but are very easy to kill.  There are much cheaper electronic modules out there, pertonix is just good at marketing them.  Their technicians will tell you to do things that are opposite of what their literature says and in either case if it fails again youll still be the one to blame.  


After talking to several ignition builders in several countries i finally gave up on it and managed to find a lucas part number for a ford lotus breaker plate that dropped into the pertronix distributor which is based on a lucas 25D.  So now im back to maintaining breaker points and contemplating a diesel.  


Anyways sorry for rambling as always.  Jeff i think your alternator voltage regulator may have an issue.  If im not mistaken it should be clipping off at 14.7vdc and i bet you are maybe even seeing 3 phase AC voltage coming straight off the winding somehow.  Normally a bridge rectifier clips the negative alternations off.  It may have an intermittent chassis ground.. Im not the best to ask on that but a high voltage like that will eat up your points and cause all sort of backfiring and cylinders dropping off.  Like the other guys said you want a 12v crank and 6v run.  Ballast resistors are all different resistences to tailor this and you gotta add the coils resistance too.  Take your running battery voltage of 12.xx and divide by 2.xx to get your target 6v run voltage.  The cumumative resistance in the circuit needs to be the 2.xx number.  


The terminals in your distributor cap will probably need sanded pretty often too in my experience.  
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2020, 09:30:32 AM »
Tractor number 2, the 49 was towed in day before yesterday and will drive out today. I rewired it because who ever did the 12volt conversion on it looks like he was the same guy that created the cluster on our mustang.  
Wiring straightened out, adjusted points, cleaned the plugs and a new balast resistor, and a carb adjustment. Also fixed an exaust leak.  Before and after on the wiring.


 

 

 
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2020, 09:46:24 AM »
Nice.  Looks to be in pretty good shape.  Nice job on the wiring.  Seems like it'd be hard to make a mess out the wiring when there's only about 6 wires on the whole tractor, but I guess the guy must have been good at ratsnests.

Mine's a 49.  I don't love the front-mount distributor, but it doesn't give me any real trouble, so I don't notice most of the time.

Is this tractor now part of your fleet Jeff?  There's no such thing as too many tractors!
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2020, 10:55:39 AM »
I got both tractors about 4 years ago in a swap. I hope to get them both into dependable shape. One for here and one to perhaps to leave at my sister's cabin rather that hauling one back and forth.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #73 on: December 25, 2020, 01:13:10 PM »
My kinda shop. Easy chair and table. Sometimes need to relax and get the visions of the project 

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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2020, 01:17:45 PM »
Pigroast central it is!
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2021, 11:31:57 AM »
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Re: Sloppy day
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2021, 11:42:37 AM »
Nice video Jeff. . . pocket cam and all that.
The sound of that motor is the best part. It brings back memories of teaching my oldest daughter how to shift a transmission on an 8N. 
Sweaty is a high value machine in the colder parts of the world, where just "starting" is greatly appreciated.   :D
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