IF you knew then what you know now.....

[Walnut Beast]

Mike is spot on on taxes. And the equipment he lists gives extreme flexibility for money making. The equipment listed can do so many different things 👍

[Magicman]

I do all of that now Mike, and my only startup expense was a $20K sawmill 19 years ago.  No dually, no skidsteer, and no gooseneck.  I drive up to the customer's logs and the customer provides the log/lumber handling and the labor.  I get paid and leave a stack of lumber, and a pile of slabs and sawdust.  I do not buy logs nor sell anything.  (I actually got a call while I was typing this asking for lumber.)

I am not suggesting that anyone should pattern their business profile after mine, but simply saying that there are fairly simple ways to start up a sawing business.

Don't start with a "hobby" sized sawmill and get a website.

[Andries]

The advice on taxes and setting up a business a count with the CRA/IRS gets my total buy-in. A certified accountant is a must, particularly for the first five years of startup.
However, seems that the advice so far has been focused on how the OP could become the next mike belben or Magicman.  

I am not suggesting that anyone should pattern their business profile after mine, but simply saying that there are fairly simple ways to start up a . . . . .   business.

Bang on!
The OP has laid out some super broad goals to shoot for.
A wood drying business, a general contractor with a sawmill or a mobile sawyer are all shots in the dark without more focus from him.
@jcrumely could get focused advice if we heard a bit more from him re what direction his gut tells him.

[jcrumley]

Sorry guys, I'm still on my day job. I am really enjoying all the input.  Great stuff.  You all have answered true and genuine which is not to be taken lightly.   
Like I said, this is something I want for retirement so, yes I'm going to keep working for now and try to get my feet more in a business plan.  I figured I would work mostly at home but I'm not going to turn away from going on the road if the opportunity is there.  I'm just getting ready.   I want to start early next year.  

Oh yeah, the 100k budget i threw out was just a number to get the conversation started.   

A hydraulic mill is where I would like to start.  I like the idea of a drying business also.  

I'm reading and taking notes, so if there are more questions let me know. 

[Walnut Beast]

I do all of that now Mike, and my only startup expense was a $20K sawmill 19 years ago.  No dually, no skidsteer, and no gooseneck.  I drive up to the customer's logs and the customer provides the log/lumber handling and the labor.  I get paid and leave a stack of lumber, and a pile of slabs and sawdust.  I do not buy logs nor sell anything.  (I actually got a call while I was typing this asking for lumber.)

I am not suggesting that anyone should pattern their business profile after mine, but simply saying that there are fairly simple ways to start up a sawing business.

Don't start with a "hobby" sized sawmill and get a website.

Hearing everybody's opinion leads me to thinking 🤔 of another topic on here. Can you make a living running a sawmill alone. THE MAJORITY SAID NO. So I think Mike's recommendations sounds pretty sensible from a big diversification of money making opportunities. If the focus is on just sawing portable I think Magicman is absolutely correct on a bigger Mill with hydraulics. It is what you make of it. I admire Magicman! He listens, takes care of his customers and is a mover and shaker. There are several people on here that seem to do pretty darn good portable sawing and I think that's awesome. They all have some very good advice 👍

[alan gage]

I wanted a mill for years and then was finally able to justify it to myself about 3 years ago. I sold my house, paid off the bank note, and bought another house that needed a remodel and shop added. Ended up about $50k in the positive after the house swap (but before any reno work).

Didn't think there would be any way I could afford a hydraulic mill so was looking at used manual mills when I stumbled on a used mostly hydraulic mill close by (Timberking B-16) that had been left outside and neglected for 12-15 years. Took a couple thousand dollars and quite a few hours but got it up and running good. I probably have $6-7k invested in that.

There is no logging here so nowhere to buy logs or have them delivered. I soon figured out we didn't have a trailer in the family that was worth a toot for hauling logs so I paid $3500 for a used deckover 14k trailer.

Then I realized my old 350 chevy wasn't cutout for hauling a 14k trailer and logs so I found a used Ram 2500 with V10 for $2500.

I needed a place to setup the mill and store logs and lumber and lucked into a wonderful piece of property (4 acres) that's zoned ag and is right on the edge of town for $4500.

Then I figured out my dad's 70hp Kubota was a dangerous machine once I started picking up logs in excess of 2000 pounds, which is very common since we mainly have hardwoods here. Quickly found out there were a lot of logs it wouldn't lift. So I went out looking and found a Bobcat 873 skidloader with 3500 hours for $10k. It has a 4500 pound tipping load and I wouldn't want anything less. Added a set of regular forks and grapple forks.

Then I needed a place to air dry lumber so I bought a 24x40' car port with 12' sidewalls and had it put up for $6000 and then added a wood framed lean-to.

At this point I was all out of money to spend and I started sawing. Although the mill was mainly purchased for personal use I wanted to make money with it as well.

First I wanted to be like Magicman but soon realized that here in the rural prairie there aren't a lot of good saw logs and that most people that own land with trees have no desire to see them cut down and turned into lumber. I've had very little call for custom sawing and the jobs I have had have only been 2-3 logs, and most of them poor quality.

Then I wanted to be like Yellowhammer but I soon discovered that people didn't come beating down my doors looking for woodworking lumber. I also found out that it takes a lot of time and effort to produce good quality lumber and it also takes a lot of time and effort to find and built a market for it.

I have a full time job that keeps me busy and a ton of personal projects that keep me busy and I was spending a lot of time doing things I didn't enjoy doing, like trying to market my sawmill operation. So in the end I decided to be like many other members here and just saw for myself, which I've enjoyed very much. I still sell some lumber here and there but it's not one of my main goals anymore.

But what about all that stuff I bought for my sawmill operation?

I love having the skidloader and couldn't give it up. Not only do I use it around the mill but it's gotten a lot of use doing dirt work and other construction projects. Very glad the mill prompted me to buy it.

I love having a heavy truck and trailer. I've made some really good buys at auctions of large quantities of old rough sawn lumber and it's nice to have something that can be quickly loaded and pulls with ease. It also comes in handy shuttling the skidloader and lumber back and forth from my house/shop to the sawmill location.

I love the land I bought for the sawmill. It's a great place to hang out and I doubt I'll ever get rid of it. Would like to build a house there in a few years.

The drying shed is still used as just that but if I ever get out of sawing it wouldn't take much to put steel sides on it and have a nice big garage.

So that's how it went for me.

If I was you I'd be tempted to wait a few years before buying a mill if you didn't have the time for it now. It seems everyone is jumping into milling and buying new mills. I'd guess at some point there are going to be a lot of used mills for sale at a good price.

Alan

[Southside]

My advice. Don't spend it on cows, especially ones that need to be milked.  :D

[woodyone.john]

For me I would take Andries path, an older 40 super and 4wd mf390 or similar with some weight on the back and crowd action forks. You will be able to move most of the stuff you need,if you pick out you dead dying and dangerous trees first,learn how to run maintain and tune your saw and build your wood shed slash utility shed. Having got that far you will be aware of what other avenues you might like to pursue what's profitable or whether to cut and run,richly experienced,having lost not too much money. I predict a wonderful future. Get started and good luck

[Walnut Beast]

My advice. Don't spend it on cows, especially ones that need to be milked.  :D

What about goats 🐐 milk 🥛😂😂

[SawyerTed]

The OP mentioned extra income, a bigger mill equals higher production which in turn produces higher extra income.  In retirement, "payback" time/ROI is important (at least to me).  Starting with $100K going with a manual mill doesn't make sense to me.  Payback on an LT 40 Super Hydraulic sawing portable 1 or 2 days per week could be 18 months or less.  Once payback is reached, portable sawing could be reduced.  Or add equipment or kiln or planer/molder.  

Another way to do the math is higher production per hour equals less time reaching a needed amount of lumber. That makes time to do other things like the OP's desire to do woodworking.

+1 on no cows!  Hard to make money on cows unless that's all you do!

[mike_belben]

seems that the advice so far has been focused on how the OP could become the next mike belben or Magicman.  

Naaah not really. I retired at 36 to be a homesteader and teach my kids the trades @ home. Im more about avoiding expenses than generating taxable income, which is not the advice i gave.  


I think the OP wants to retire from the dayjob to be more of a businessman than me.  I am very unsuccessful in dollar signs.




I tried to describe how to take his cash, test many waters at once and leap in if its warm or leap out with minimal losses.  A risk mitigation plan designed to avoid scenarios like finding out after the new WM shows up, that theres already a magicman down the road and the market doesnt need you unless youll saw at a loss.  Or that the local timber sucks, no one delivers and youll need to go round it up on roadtrips or starve for logs.  



Flexibility that can line up work for weeks, and avoiding huge depreciation on specialty equipment that goes obsolete or gets used to zero were my two main goals in that prescription.   Ive picked parts off a LOT of scrapped CNC machines that cost a very nice house when new.  Ya dont want that kind of depreciation.

[Magicman]

One thing that I failed to mention.  My sawing profile fits me because I am not looking for anything other than a part time job and supplemental income.  I generally saw ~75Mbf each year but last year it was well over 100Mbf, I guess due to the C-19 stuff and increased lumber prices. 

I could increase my income but that would require longer and more sawing hours and possibly adding labor and lumber handling capabilities.  That might increase income but it also would increase expenses.  There is absolutely an ERC and Cypress market that I have not and will not tap into.  I am content with my sawing profile as it is.

[KenMac]

Near Anniston/Oxford.

That grapple truck looks handy.

I'm just west of Pell City and have a Cook's AC36. You are welcome to come have a look-see if you'd like. ;D

[longtime lurker]

If I was a woodworker - and I liked woodwork, and I wanted to do woodwork when I retired - and I had $100k to throw at it. Short answer:

nice shed
good 3 phase connection
decent secondhand commercial cabinetmakers equipment
and that should leave about $70k to spend buying good wood in the sizes you want it with no stress and no commitment beyond next week.

Not the answer you wanted huh?  Thing is that I have seen a lot of guys start with this vision that says I have trees and I have woodworking skills so I need to be a sawmiller to turn A into E (because step B is tree into log, step C is log into green lumber, step D is green lumber into dry lumber, and its not until 5 processes later that we have a saleable finished wooden article) And every step along that way is priced at cost + couple % profit.

Fundamentally it's not the best path to be vertically integrated unless you're keen and/or dumb (I'm just dumb - the keen wore off a couple years back). Each task requires equipment and your best bet is to pick one and go at it.... not dabble in all of the above with insufficient gear. Because logging isn't sawmilling and sawmilling isn't woodworking, and working yourself to death in your retirement is not the objective.

(Now I'm a sawmiller... and ifn ya asked me where I'd spend $100k to set up for sawing in my retirement it'd involve mostly fish hooks and beer) :D

[Brad_bb]

@jcrumley,
I assume you want to stay stationary?

If it were me... I'd only get a hydraulic mill like an LT40, and a machine to move logs and lumber.

I would not get a skid steer though.  I have a skid steer and a tractor conversion forklift.  The skid steer with forks is very difficult to see exactly where the end of your forks are or how level they are when loaded with a log.  You also cannot get off a skid steer with the arms off the ground.  On the other hand a small compact rough terrain forklift will have good visibility, and you'll be able to get off it when loaded and off the ground.  

That's it!  Don't mess with a truck or grapple to move logs.  If you think you need that later you can always do it, but I've worked with a lot of logs and I get them delivered.  My two regular sources of logs will deliver for a fee.  The time I had two semi loads of walnut from a farmer, I hired a large tree service that had log trucks and truck with grapple.

When I'm doing building my new place, I won't be milling near the level I have been.  So I've been asked what will I do after?  Well if I'm going to spend time milling, I want to do something specialized.  Producing live edge brace stock may be one.  I was also thinking about RRQS.  Searching for high end logs to make Quarter sawn.  I don't want to make a real business out of it.  Just something fun until I get tired of it.  But the point is, you could find a specialty to do when you don't have custom milling jobs.  Not everyone can move logs to your place.


 

I paid $4400 for it, which was admittedly a good deal (had a chance at another one for $7500 and should have done it).  I've put $1200 in maintenance/repairs over the last 6 years, which is not bad at all, and the older machines are simpler.

[Old Greenhorn]

All the information and advice you have been offered, by my experience is pretty spot on. Nothing I would disagree with or cast aside, especially the advice on mill selection. I 'started' my retirement business back in February, not knowing a) when I would retire exactly, and 2) that the world was about to turn upside down, so my situation is not 'typical'. The virus thing hastened my retirement (my choice) to June 1st of this year. For the last 4 years I have been working on my shop building to 'kind of' move toward what I needed for a working environment. That was lucky. I have added 2 more upstairs lofts since the beginning of the year to increase floor space. I have a hobby mill (Manual, 28" dia x 24' long). I can and do mill wood for myself and for sale, but it would kill me to try to make my income making lumber. I make stuff in the shop, benches, tables, etc. I am getting going as fast as I can, but its going too slow. No real income yet. I just officially registered the business a few weeks ago. (Virus issues with the county offices, etc.) I could have done this better for sure, but no regrets.
Things I would do differently in hindsight:
Get the business registered right away. This allows you to grab a domain name for your website, get cards printed, developed a logo, or whatever else you might need, once you own the name. Also bank accounts, sales tax, etc.. Once you are 'legal' you can start keeping books on your investments and expenses.
 Do everything you can before you retire to set up whatever infrastructure you might need. Get the tools or machines and get them in shape. Make building improvements, sheds or whatever BEFORE the retirement comes. (In the last 8 months I have spent a bunch of time on building things, fixing things or expanding things I need for the business, none of this makes money but it is taking steps to save steps and very important. I didn't get everything done I wanted, so I sneak in one or two projects here and there. All of these things are 'out of pocket' and the return is long term.)
 STORAGE is a HUGE thing. Where are you putting the lumber? Is it 'climate secure' for your region? Wood takes a lot of space and needs at least to be covered somehow. For just my own needs, this is a continuing challenge. Yeah, you can mill like mad but you need to stack and sticker it someplace. Then if you flat stack, it needs to be kept very dry. Because you long a long lead time for drying, you have to have lumber in all stages of the process at the same time. What about a kiln, you'd have to build that too?

 I skipped a lot of stuff here because others already gave you definitive advice in those areas. Mostly you need to think it through, write it down, and follow through on what you decided. Staying narrow focused is a good way to go until there is money coming in, if it isn't, then a plan change is in order. I am following what I think is a harder and more poorly planned road, a little of this and a little of that. I mill a little, I make some rustic furniture a little, I sell a little lumber, and I do a little consulting. I can't compete with the really good guys on any particular aspect, and I don't want to. I want to float with the seasons, the market, and what strikes me as fun. I need that. I don't want to be trying to mill logs when it is 5° outside because I only make lumber. Snow gets to be a real big issue here for outdoor work in the winter.
 Best of luck to you in whatever you decide. 

[Sixacresand]

Own a decent size and dependable tractor with FEL. 

[alan gage]

If I was a woodworker - and I liked woodwork, and I wanted to do woodwork when I retired - and I had $100k to throw at it. Short answer:

nice shed
good 3 phase connection
decent secondhand commercial cabinetmakers equipment
and that should leave about $70k to spend buying good wood in the sizes you want it with no stress and no commitment beyond next week.

There's a lot to be said for that. Since buying my sawmill I've bought over 5000bf of local rough sawn hardwood lumber at auctions and from a couple private individuals that had been sitting around in sheds for many years. Oak, ash, walnut, elm, maple. All for about .25/bf.
At that price it makes me wonder why I even bother sawing. Not only that but I look at these guys that stock piled more lumber than they were able to use in their lifetime and it's like looking at myself 30 years in the future.
Right now I probably have more lumber than I'll ever use and I keep sawing more. Why? Because I like to I guess.
Alan

[Walnut Beast]

(ITS A CRAP SHOOT) You have had advice all over the board here. Have you ever just thought of just of heading to Vegas with your briefcase 💼 with a 100k and heading to the craps table. Load the pass line up and stack the numbers heavy and pray there's no 7 out. Now if you loose. Well we won't go there. If you win and walk away with 500k then we really can help you make some solid decisions 🤔😂

[YellowHammer]

If you had a budget of say 100K (just for fun) what mill, kiln, tractor, whatever, other equipment would you get?  

If I knew what I knew now....
I'd save up and get another $100,000 for a start if you want to do all that, up front.
A L200M container kiln cost $40K running and installed including gravel, power, everything.  Plus electrical power every month. Or buy one from Nyle for $50K.
A good hydraulic mill, LT40 super is $40K.
A reliable fork loader or tractor can be anywhere from $10 to $80K.
A good reliable pickup truck, 2500 diesel, $40Kto $80K
Any kind of three phase electrical, $10K to start 
Barn, building, shed, $40 to $150K
Trailer for hauling logs $10K
Oh yeah, logs....they are not cheap, 20 acres of trees will disappear real quick, if you get busy.  

[mike_belben]

Dont start retirement with a huge new debt.  No matter how good it looks on paper or who else is doin it. Dont spend more than u can afford to lose. 

[Walnut Beast]

If you had a budget of say 100K (just for fun) what mill, kiln, tractor, whatever, other equipment would you get?  

If I knew what I knew now....
I'd save up and get another $100,000 for a start if you want to do all that, up front.
A L200M container kiln cost $40K running and installed including gravel, power, everything.  Plus electrical power every month. Or buy one from Nyle for $50K.
A good hydraulic mill, LT40 super is $40K.
A reliable fork loader or tractor can be anywhere from $10 to $80K.
A good reliable pickup truck, 2500 diesel, $40Kto $80K
Any kind of three phase electrical, $10K to start
Barn, building, shed, $40 to $150K
Trailer for hauling logs $10K
Oh yeah, logs....they are not cheap, 20 acres of trees will disappear real quick, if you get busy.  

Yellowhammer pretty much hammered it 👍

[realzed]

Yup, we do not get "undo's" nor "redo's".  We get one chance to screw up and usually succeed!!  :

Ain't that the real truth?

[donbj]

If I knew then what I know now? Woulda stayed in school,lol

Seriously though, don't go into retirement with a debt load as some have already suggested. Build your retirement plan so you can enjoy it, not so you end up having to work physically harder than you ever did.

If you have a decent job you are set up to do that.

[jcrumley]

Hey guys, sorry I haven't replied in a while but my day job got in the way again.  I had to put in back to back 13 and 14 hour days.(one of the big reasons I'm working to retire)  I didn't say what I do but I'm a engineer for an automotive supplier.  I'm not a behind the desk engineer but I work on the shop floor keeping equipment running.  I fix what maintenance can't, won't, or don't want to.

This seems to have turned into an all star cast.  This thread has been great.  Lots of things to consider.

I'm asking you guys because you have been doing this for a while.  I have people ask me all the time how to get a job like mine, or how to get into woodworking like I do.  They generally don't like my answers.  Telling them to get a college degree usually turns most guys off on getting a job like mine.  On woodworking, I tell them to invest 50 to 60K in a building with good insulation and heating and cooling, a top of the line dust collection, and invest in 3-phase power.  That's a chunk and you haven't even bought the first machine.

You know the old saying, the quickest way to make a million dollars is to start with two million.  It's like anything else that makes money, the best way is to find a market or niche.  That's where  I am.  That;s the key.  I know the only way to find it is to get out there and get to work.  Woodwork and sawmilling (I have taken many logs to have milled by a local guy and I always help) is something I really enjoy doing and to be able to make some money is my goal.  

What ever route I go, I will not be taking out loans for retirement.  Anything I do will be a big investment but It will be a paid for investment.  I don't believe in starting off behind.