Off grid building

[allandensmore]

Seeking advice.  I have been building for years off grid, but could still get truck to property.
Next year looking for full off grid build.  Purchased Solar inflatable jet boat to get me up river.  I like the logosol F2+ for taking up to use for build, but am not stuck on that one product.  I am looking for suggestions from those who have experience in some way with what I'm going to do.
Love portability of sawmill.  But I believe I may also need something else to cut large logs where I drop them vs trying to get them too the sawmill at camp.
If anyone has experience with building completely off grid using portable sawmill, Alaskan sawmill, other, please provide insight.
I have done Northern Canada, Alaska, Maine but again, I could get lumber directly from mill and drive truck to my location.  Not this time.  Dream has been to do something for myself, this time build is for me.
Structure would be roughly 20x30 or larger, but am not sure if past builds are applicable due to in ability to just purchase the lumber in need.
Thanks in advance for suggestions.
Allan

[allandensmore]

Additional note.  I will have a generator soa small portable band saw or logosol band saw is option.  Just trying to provide as much info as I can to help with responses.
Thanks

[Woodpecker52]

Appears you are limited by what you can haul up river by  the inflatable solar powered jet boat? I would think just a chainsaw type mill.  Or you could haul the logs/lumber
 behind the boat.

[Crossroads]

Sounds like a fun project, I'm off grid, but like you mentioned able to drive to the building site. I moved onto my property in late august and time didn't allow me to mill the wood for the build. My intention is to mill everything for the actual house/cabin though. 

[Don P]

I'd think the wood is the easy part, it's getting everything else to the site that is the problem.

[SawyerTed]

By the time you get a sufficient chainsaw and chainsaw mill you would have spent a substantial portion of the purchase price of an entry level band mill.  For example the Woodmizer LX25 is $3,295 with 9hp gas engine.  The machine weight is 576 pounds and could be moved in two or three trips on the boat.  It will mill a 26" log 12 feet long and extensions can be added.  Norwood, Woodland Mills and Timbery are three brands (there are others) that offer a similar band mill in the 600 pound weight range and in the same price rage of $2,800 to $3,400.  With the lower weight of these mills, they could be pulled by an ATV on a small axle assembly/trailer.  Or using a log arch fairly large logs can be moved to the mill with an ATV.

I'm not familiar with brands but swing mills might be an option as well. They are light weight and can be disassembled for transport.  The advantage they have is being able to set up where the log is rather than transporting logs to the mill.  Prices might be higher than the entry level band mills.  They appear to work well on medium to large logs but smaller logs not so much.  I am no expert on swing mills.  

[woodyone.john]

Don't know what fits in your boat but check out turbo Mill. Cuts framing timbers light weight and portable.

[Nebraska]

Hudson makes a really small mill with a simple angle iron frame. I think its design is a good choice for a remote milling site, it could be packed in, stages.. Your length could be as long as you like and it looks light enough one could float it in your jet boat. They aren't a forum sponsor, like EZ Boardwalk  but you would need a separate  barge to tow along, to move one their mills.

[mike_belben]

I would not try to make framing lumber on an alaskan mill.  If you have a big saw and some basic fab skill you can make a portable track frame for the saw to cut lumber where the tree lands.  Mine is make from street sign and i can carry it alone.  



A bandmill is dramatically faster though. 

[alan gage]

If we knew (roughly) where you you building it might help with ideas.

For example what species of trees are available and what's the diameter?

If you have winter in that location what about hauling lumber over the ice during winter?

What's the construction method? Are you looking to cut large posts or small dimension framing lumber?

Are you doing this all by yourself or will there be other manpower available?

Alan

[allandensmore]

By the time you get a sufficient chainsaw and chainsaw mill you would have spent a substantial portion of the purchase price of an entry level band mill.  For example the Woodmizer LX25 is $3,295 with 9hp gas engine.  The machine weight is 576 pounds and could be moved in two or three trips on the boat.  It will mill a 26" log 12 feet long and extensions can be added.  Norwood, Woodland Mills and Timbery are three brands (there are others) that offer a similar band mill in the 600 pound weight range and in the same price rage of $2,800 to $3,400.  With the lower weight of these mills, they could be pulled by an ATV on a small axle assembly/trailer.  Or using a log arch fairly large logs can be moved to the mill with an ATV.

I'm not familiar with brands but swing mills might be an option as well. They are light weight and can be disassembled for transport.  The advantage they have is being able to set up where the log is rather than transporting logs to the mill.  Prices might be higher than the entry level band mills.  They appear to work well on medium to large logs but smaller logs not so much.  I am no expert on swing mills.

That was great info.  Jet boat can haul about 1,000 lbs. Will research your suggestions.  
thanks 

[allandensmore]

Appears you are limited by what you can haul up river by  the inflatable solar powered jet boat? I would think just a chainsaw type mill.  Or you could haul the logs/lumber
behind the boat.

Can haul about 1,000 lbs.  Weight of green lumber is way to much.  Too many trips.  Thinking of logosol because I can use chainsaw, or add the electric band saw to same platform.  Figured I would ask for advice from the group.
Thanks

[allandensmore]

Don't know what fits in your boat but check out turbo Mill. Cuts framing timbers light weight and portable.

That was great, never heard of such a thing. I will research.  Again thanks.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Peterson or Lucas swing mills could be broken down sufficiently to be transported by your boat. My 10" Peterson WPF was about 700 pounds for the saw frame (this could be broken down further where the heaviest portion was the engine, it came that way from NZ), and besides this the rails, 4 of them , were about 65 pounds each. 

As to milling small logs, not sure what your sizes are, but anything the logosol or other chainsaw mill could do, these would do just as well and easily. 

[allandensmore]

If we knew (roughly) where you you building it might help with ideas.

For example what species of trees are available and what's the diameter?

If you have winter in that location what about hauling lumber over the ice during winter?

What's the construction method? Are you looking to cut large posts or small dimension framing lumber?

Are you doing this all by yourself or will there be other manpower available?

Alan

Great question Alan.
Build for me, Alaska most likely.
Wood, whatever is there, don't know yet.
Yes many people haul in winter in Northern Canada.  Due to logistics, not sure if that is an option, but I have considered it.
Most builds I do are with a hired local helper, so normally my self, or + 1.  Seems I can always count on me being there but not someone else.  Really want another helper when I do next build.
Good help or just help is difficult to find when your up north.
In northern Canada yrs ago it was min $25 cash an hr just for job Corp, no exp, no desire to work person.  Normally last a day or so.  Many places in N people get $50-$100 hr for working.  So to really get help you need to bring from lower 48.  Provide food, lodging, wages, and pay for transportation too and from.
It's not the same in the bush.

[allandensmore]

Peterson or Lucas swing mills could be broken down sufficiently to be transported by your boat. My 10" Peterson WPF was about 700 pounds for the saw frame (this could be broken down further where the heaviest portion was the engine, it came that way from NZ), and besides this the rails, 4 of them , were about 65 pounds each.

As to milling small logs, not sure what your sizes are, but anything the logosol or other chainsaw mill could do, these would do just as well and easily.

Will look into swing mills.
That is the value of forums, you get advice about products or issues you may not of heard of or even thought of.
Thanks

[allandensmore]

Peterson or Lucas swing mills could be broken down sufficiently to be transported by your boat. My 10" Peterson WPF was about 700 pounds for the saw frame (this could be broken down further where the heaviest portion was the engine, it came that way from NZ), and besides this the rails, 4 of them , were about 65 pounds each.

As to milling small logs, not sure what your sizes are, but anything the logosol or other chainsaw mill could do, these would do just as well and easily.

Love the swing blade.  Also like blade vs band.  Doing research.

[allandensmore]

Sounds like a fun project, I'm off grid, but like you mentioned able to drive to the building site. I moved onto my property in late august and time didn't allow me to mill the wood for the build. My intention is to mill everything for the actual house/cabin though.

Buying from mill has always been easy and cheap when you can drive to site.  My purpose for the mill is 1 or two trips for mill, or, many, many trips with heavy lumber.  Using wood on land will more than offset lumber and transportation costs.

[mike_belben]

If your talking about small diameter pine i would seriously consider just making a carriage to run a chainsaw down an aluminum ladder.  Two holes drilled through the bar works fine for me.  This is cheap light and simple.  And you could probably double your money selling it up there after. Or working it at your neighbors camp.


Pull two bolts and its your felling saw.  Does not get tied up. 

[allandensmore]

If your talking about small diameter pine i would seriously consider just making a carriage to run a chainsaw down an aluminum ladder.  Two holes drilled through the bar works fine for me.  This is cheap light and simple.  And you could probably double your money selling it up there after. Or working it at your neighbors camp.


Pull two bolts and its your felling saw.  Does not get tied up.

One of the sawmills I was looking at does reference you using a ladder for support.
As I see it so far.
Purchase bandsaw that supports log omg the ground when cutting.  Must come in sections due to weight.  Then granberg portable mill to take to fallen logs.  Cut fallen down to size, transport to mill.  Use woodland mill with legs to allow it to be towed with small at.
Or logosol 2 not 2+ with Stihl Ms 880, and again granberg portable.
Both options will be $4,000 to $5,000.  But can use for multiple builds.  Small cost considering lumber cost in northern woods.  Substituting time and effort ( manually cutting) vs spending money on pre cut lumber, then multiple trips back and forth by boat.

[Don P]

One thing with a band is frequent sharpening/setting/ replacing. A chainsaw probably has the most available saw "blades". A circle blade on a swing mill has few teeth, they can absorb more damage than a band and keep going and are quick to sharpen. You would probably want to have several on hand and the retipping jig. We did a minor modification and can quickly spin the powerhead on a Lacas 6-18 and make 12" wide lumber.

What are you building? Log, timber or stick frame?

[mike_belben]

I hate alaskan milling... Really hate it.  Compared to a chainsaw on a carriage that rides on a basic track.  For making 4 sided lumber you really cannot overvalue having adjustable height backstops square to the bed, and log clamps.  My chainsaw cutter is stupid slow compared to a bandmill but it will make 5x as much 2 by lumber as an alaskan for the same amount of back pain.   I would only make big tables or long beams with an alaskan.  Just my opinion.  I like to work but not that hard.

[richhiway]

I built a 10x16 building with a Logosol at my camp.It is nice to take the mill to the logs. They are easy to move by one man

 and almost bullet proof. I found by using 2 saws, one to break the log to a cant and the other to saw the boards, you spend less time sharping or changing chains. Look up my posts and you will find a lot of info. They cut very accurate lumber. Not as fast as a bandsaw but you would be surprised what two guys could cut on one in a day. 

You can also put the Logosol on a big log,rather then putting the log on the mill. 
This would come in handy in the bush

[richhiway]

The only part not cut with the Logosol is the plywood flooring.

[mike_belben]

the norwood pm14 looks like a pretty simple rig to build or affordable to buy, easy transport etc.  


Heres a pretty good thread on primitive sawing

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=104076.0

[richhiway]

BTW. You do not need huge saws and bars to cut lumber with a logosol mill. I used a 046 magnum with a 18 inch bar. that was used to do the majority of my sawing. You also use the same saws for your other saw work. I did buy a new 661, they are 70cc and 90cc class saws. Was not a lot of difference. The widest cut I would make on lumber was a 12 inch board. Cutting soft wood lumber for a cabin and cutting huge hardwood slabs are totally different operations. I had also purchased the Logosol used. I sold it two years later for what I had paid for it. I sold the 046 and got my money back also. I kept the 661.You really can not count the cost of the saws towards the mill. If you have a bandsaw and plan to harvest your own trees you need the saws anyway.

[allandensmore]

I built a 10x16 building with a Logosol at my camp.It is nice to take the mill to the logs. They are easy to move by one man

 and almost bullet proof. I found by using 2 saws, one to break the log to a cant and the other to saw the boards, you spend less time sharping or changing chains. Look up my posts and you will find a lot of info. They cut very accurate lumber. Not as fast as a bandsaw but you would be surprised what two guys could cut on one in a day.

You can also put the Logosol on a big log,rather then putting the log on the mill.
This would come in handy in the bush

I will look at your posts, thanks.

[allandensmore]

One thing with a band is frequent sharpening/setting/ replacing. A chainsaw probably has the most available saw "blades". A circle blade on a swing mill has few teeth, they can absorb more damage than a band and keep going and are quick to sharpen. You would probably want to have several on hand and the retipping jig. We did a minor modification and can quickly spin the powerhead on a Lacas 6-18 and make 12" wide lumber.

What are you building? Log, timber or stick frame?

Really do not want to do log due to weight.  But with log, no additional insulation is needed.
Timber (post and beam?), May, stick?
Once I see what I have available I will know.
Thinking of cutting logs so I can stack, like log home but cut down to liftable sizes.  Will treat before putting up.
Or post and beam with board &batten walls.
I do not for the life of me know how years ago individuals built such big log homes.  To me in the bush, by yourself, multiple smaller buildings would be much more feasible it seams.
one guy can only do so much.

[Joe Hillmann]

Check out Advoko Makes on YouTube.  It is a Russian channel dubbed into English.  He has at least one video where he shows how he freehand cut all of his planks with a chainsaw.

He is also building a cabin where everything comes in by boat or snowmobile.  He appears to be a bit of a perfectionist so yo should be able to cut some decent lumber with his method.

He says it is faster than using a chainsawlill attachment and can be done with a less powerful saw as well.

I own a mill and I have used a similar method to mill logs when I couldn't get a log to or onto the mill.  With some practice it could be a reasonable way to mill logs.  The main "trick" to the technique is to only use the very tip of the chain and lots of passes to mill the logs.

[Don P]

One method of doing log in manageable sizes is the way the Hudson Bay Company built their buildings. Vertical timber posts are spaced along the wall, generally at door and window sides but they can be spaced along a blank wall section as well. Shorter end tenoned infill logs fill the spaces between. Depending on size one or two men can then handle the pieces. This method is also called "piece-sur-piece" and red river log, or post and beam log. There is a good book on it "The Craft of Modular Post and Beam" James Mitchell.

Don't forget the simple machines, I've rigged and lifted/moved pretty good sized stuff with very simple stuff. Not fast but it works fine.

[allandensmore]

Check out Advoko Makes on YouTube.  It is a Russian channel dubbed into English.  He has at least one video where he shows how he freehand cut all of his planks with a chainsaw.

He is also building a cabin where everything comes in by boat or snowmobile.  He appears to be a bit of a perfectionist so yo should be able to cut some decent lumber with his method.

He says it is faster than using a chainsawlill attachment and can be done with a less powerful saw as well.

I own a mill and I have used a similar method to mill logs when I couldn't get a log to or onto the mill.  With some practice it could be a reasonable way to mill logs.  The main "trick" to the technique is to only use the very tip of the chain and lots of passes to mill the logs.

[allandensmore]

One method of doing log in manageable sizes is the way the Hudson Bay Company built their buildings. Vertical timber posts are spaced along the wall, generally at door and window sides but they can be spaced along a blank wall section as well. Shorter end tenoned infill logs fill the spaces between. Depending on size one or two men can then handle the pieces. This method is also called "piece-sur-piece" and red river log, or post and beam log. There is a good book on it "The Craft of Modular Post and Beam" James Mitchell.

Don't forget the simple machines, I've rigged and lifted/moved pretty good sized stuff with very simple stuff. Not fast but it works fine.

Thanks for the heads up Don.  I just purchased the book.  I also watched a number of videos just the other day on doing a log cabin in segments ends were called Corner post and notch, but the middle section is what really got me going.  Allows you to build a cabin in shorter lengths to reduce the weight, it was outstanding.  I have been to a week long class on the butt & pass system and have done a lot of research.  I believe for speed and ease for the beginner it is the best system.  However nobody addresses the weight of the logs.  Using the corner or in this case the mid post system which i believe is similar to what the book talks about, it changes the rules on cabin building without having all the equipment.
Thanks
Allan

[allandensmore]

Its official, the offer on the property went through and im doing an Alaska way off grid river build this summer.  As I was telling Don, if you have not watched the videos on Corner post, and using that strategy for the middle or to build the log home in segments you are missing the boat.  While it may take longer, now a single person or a two person team can build where they could not build before.

[Nebraska]

Congratulations.... post lots of pictures of your build if your are willing it will be fun to watch. 

[farmfromkansas]

I had an old building on my place that was maybe the first building in the county in about 1860.  Had a timber frame built of 4x4's, with B&B siding, and 2x6 floor joists @ 24" oc. Building was 16' wide and about 32' long. Someone had moved another building and pushed up against the side, and made a house of the thing, then in the 50's had added electricity and plumbing, and cut sections out of the 4x4's, and then the frame started bending, roof sagged and bowed out, by the time I got it about ready to fall down. Timber frame does not stand well when guys cut the main frame to get wires and pipe through.