The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service

Dynamic Green Products Inc.





Author Topic: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest  (Read 2251 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« on: December 25, 2020, 08:44:48 PM »
Hello, I'm located in northeastern Kansas and new to Forestry Forum.  Lots of reading and researching, since going to work as a groundsman for a tree service company.

I realize there's a huge learning curve ahead of me, and so I'm not in any hurry moving up to climbing/bucket work (& NOT interested in supervising a work crew, either! lol :-).

My last job I worked as an outboard motor and boat repairman, so naturally I was inclined to learn all that I could find available about porting and modding work saws, making them useful as possible.

The business owner regularly works on and modifies his equipment, and I was encouraged to learn by purchasing a parts saw and all the necessary ingredients to build my first modded and ported chainsaw.

After trying out all the work saws available at the tree company, and comparing an MS200 to an MS170, I found myself fascinated by the concept that MS200 and MS170 had nearly the same displacement, yet clear power winner was MS200 pro saw.

This started my "curiosity bump" itching (IE: head-scratching lol) and I wanted to find out what the difference was?

Both saws had similar weight & power ratings (170=1.3 kw, 200=1.7 kw), 170 had more plastic than 200, with it's more durable metal shell, but internally, it appeared specs for working bits were about equal as far as wear and tear goes?  

This was a puzzlement to me, and I like for things to make sense and be understandable lol :-)

When I asked tree company business owner what the differences was, it was suggested that I might best learn by purchasing a MS170 parts saw to build, and learn porting and mods as a way of educating myself what differences are and why performance was so much notably better for a ported-modded saw.

BO told me that if my MS 170 didn't equal or beat his stock MS 200,  I would need to change the model designation of my saw to "B.S. 170+"  lol :-D

And that's where I am on my journey: I'm learning, reading everything I can and of course watching tutorial videos.  

I've purchased a parts saw, non-RPM limited coil, an aftermarket tunable carburetor, necessary burrs/stones to do porting work, timing wheel, and reading, reading, reading (!) forum posts by such distinguished performers as Randy "Mastermind" :-)




Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2020, 12:04:47 PM »
I dont think mastermind posts over here.  Hotrodding saws is a lot more popular on AS but there is a much different culture over here.  @HolmenTree is the resident cookie racer.  

Take care of that MS200.  Theyve skyrocketed in price.  Biggest chainsaw buying mistake i ever made was saving a few bucks on the 192T.. Only new saw i ever bought. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline ladylake

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5403
  • Age: 68
  • Location: grey eagle mn
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2020, 01:09:19 PM »
 A ms170 is the bottom of the line Stihl.  Steve
Timberking B20 15000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline sawguy21

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11312
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Enderby B.C. Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2020, 02:37:38 PM »
They are similar displacements but two entirely different saws. The 170 is the entry level homeowner saw and while suited for its intended purpose it is limited. The MS200 is a full on pro saw geared for the tree services and is the industry standard, nobody else came close for light weight, performance and reliability.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2020, 09:53:58 PM »
Take care of that MS200.  Theyve skyrocketed in price.
MS170 is the only homeowner saw on the tree service truck I crew, everything else is pro-grade.

MS170 wound up on bucket truck, after tree service business owner bought saw for his wife, and she rejected it, but not before pasting it with "flowery" stickers!  lol  :-)

Once trialing MS170, B.O.'s wife said she was "through with it" and refused further usage (suppose that's the case, once one's become accustomed to pro saws?).  

We keep her MS170 on our chipper for trimming down oddly-shaped limbs which invariably refuse feeding into chipper.  MS170 does a good job for that  :-)  lol

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2020, 10:27:41 PM »
Thought I would post an update on progress with MS170 parts saw. While there're a lot of activities and other priorities I'm working on, with time off work for holidays, I've been able to accomplish some progress on the saw.

I've finished muffler modification, installed non-RPM limited coil, new spark plug, new oil line & fuel line/filter, brand new chain (original chain's soaking in bar oil), installed aftermarket, adjustable-tunable carburetor, new air filter, J-B Welded numerous defects/damage to plastic,  removed and cleaned a ton of dirt, debris, gum-oil-sawdust-mix and plain old "yuck" impacted into saw's every crease and crevice, and on the list goes!   :-)  lol

Without access to a lathe or mill, it's going to be a challenge utilizing out-of-the-box thinking, devising means for reducing squish to 20 to 25 thousanths & providing 40 thousandths worth of squish band in bottom of cylinder "a la Mastermind."

After reading everything I could on forums and watching tutorial videos, believe I'm starting to get a handle on porting transfers, adjusting timing, and various non-intuitive intricacies being put forward by top builders with their posts and supplementing videos.

How long is my first port job going to take to complete? idk. Had to purchase a few more tools needed, which should show up next week.   In the meantime, I'll have a working saw with a muffler mod and tuned carburetor to use.

For me, the fun is in doing something new and different, enjoying learning something interesting that's useful.

Offline Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14302
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2020, 11:59:25 PM »
No issues with you "hotting up" a cheap little homeowner saw, it's your saw and your time  :)

But I look at like Hotting Up a 1600cc Corolla back in the day. A bog standard 90s Corolla made about 110 hp. Sure you could rework it to get more (that's your MS170). But a JDM 4A-GE powered "Corolla" had closer to 170hp from the factory, from the same size non-turbo 1600cc engine (MS200). 

Difference was the internals (and externals for that matter were completely different. The 4A-GE red-lined at about 8,000 rpm (factory), and had ALL the go fast goodies already. There wasn't much more that could be done to hot up the engine, but it was still a completely reliable Toyota engine. 

The "normal" engine hotted up to make 170 hp had a pretty limited life as the internals just weren't up to the extra revs and power. 

But don't those observations put you off  ;D
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2020, 12:56:52 AM »

No issues with you "hotting up" ... it's your saw and your time  :)
...engine hotted up ...limited life as the internals just weren't up to the extra revs and power. ;D
Here's something interesting:

Of the half a dozen or so top builders I'm aware of, I'm finding a lot of mentions in postings noting porting makes their builds run cooler, providing more power, without sacrificing longevity or decreasing reliability ...  

It's just when moving from work saws more into race saws territory, one sees posts where power is increased 40+% with consequent sacrifice of longevity ...  

I really don't maintain interest in race saws, but ported work saws? ...   More power, faster performance, more work accomplished in less time...  What's not to like?  :-)  Yes!  

Ported and modded work saws are reported to be practical for everyday use, which is where I find myself, since working for a tree service company.

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2020, 09:24:39 AM »
Who wouldn't want a metal lathe and mill? Plenty of fun projects you could do with that! lol  :-)  Most certainly, modding and porting chainsaw customization's.

For those of us born without a silver spoon in our mouth (IE: born to follow a budget ... was born with nothing and still have most of it!  lol  ;-), if searching sufficiently, one'll encounter other's "poor boy" solutions.

Here's an interesting example by top builder "tree monkey", cutting a squish band by hand (a task which I believe lies in wait ahead, in porting/modding MS170 parts saw):


At the conclusion of porting's learning curve and fun building, lies a competition between tree service business owner's wife's (try saying that three times fast LOL) totally stock MS170 and my built-from-parts-saw of a ported and modded MS170, with all the "tricks of the trade" and "bells and whistles" I could provide.

I shouldn't have too much trouble meeting that mark in surpassing stock, but comparing cheap entry-level MS170 homeowner saw with industry-standard commercial grade MS200? idk

I'm guessing from comments received in this thread, that I might as well change model designation of my ported and modded saw from MS170  to "B.S.170+" as suggested by tree service BO in my first post. lol  :-P

We'll have to wait and see! Guessing is good, but there's nothing like trial & proving in real world results  :-p   howsoever, ...not taking any bets! :-)  lol

Offline lxskllr

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1936
  • Age: 52
  • Location: MD USA
  • Gender: Male
  • dummy with saw
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2020, 09:35:08 AM »
Sounds like an interesting project, and a good saw to practice on. If you totally hosed the whole thing, you're not out much money for the saw, and you have a bunch of new toys tools to try again with your new experience.

Offline ladylake

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5403
  • Age: 68
  • Location: grey eagle mn
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2020, 09:39:10 AM »
  

   You cant cut squish on a clamshell engine.  Steve
Timberking B20 15000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2020, 09:46:49 AM »
On split case saws, jugs with a lip you put the jug on a dowel in a lathe. On a clam the bottom of the jug is the top of a bearing. Cant do it.


I used to use wood dowels with electrical tape to shim for cutting squish with a skirt extension in the way.  Then put a screw through the port into the dowel to cut the base with a right hand insert holder in the lathe.   I also had made a squish cutter for jugs that had that silly lip in the top corner of the head.. 041 comes to mind.  It was a piece of barstock with a slit and pinchbolt that id clamp a carbide insert into and turn it out by hand.




The temps will go down from a muffler mod and fatter tune because there is more mass of fuel and air being moved through the pump per unit time.  That mass absorbs more BTU from the hot metal in the process of getting the mix up to temp for combustion.  Higher rpm means higher CFM through the fanwheel also so there is greater mechanical cooling to the exterior jug fins and muffler body.  



If you cant bump the compression by cutting the base of a jug, just weld a dome on the piston.  I set mine in a tuna can of water and gave a lot of time between layers to keep from getting the skirts out of round. Then shape on a sander and hand file/sand to finish.     You can also epoxy the base cavity to increase the base compression ratio.  Done this on 041, 353 and 61s.   Just beware that a really high compression saw will need a decompressor or itll break the homeowner starter.  Think theyre metric 10x1.0 threads on the decompressors.  Ive put them vertical right next to the plug on jugs with no pad cast in.



When you get that 170 to make a bunch of power the clutch will slip.
Revelation 3:20

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2020, 01:17:54 PM »
Posted by lxskllr: Sounds like an interesting project, and a good saw to practice on. If you totally hosed the whole thing, you're not out much money for the saw, and you have a bunch of new toys tools to try again with your new experience.

Answer:

I bought the parts saw for $20 off of fleabay ...  What killed me was shipping   LOL  ...   Reminds me of a "Hagar the Horrible" cartoon: Salted Herring Free! ... water to go with that, $5 a drink  >8'@

Posted by Ladylake: You cant cut squish on a clamshell engine.  Steve

Posted by mike_belben: ... On a clam the bottom of the jug is the top of a bearing. Cant do it. ...

Answer:

I'm contemplating "work-arounds" on that one! ...  If you've ever cast a bronze bearing into a windmill gearbox, you'll recognize my thought process: using parts which run against bearing surfaces (or forming a waterglass/sand core), and casting a form-fitting bronze insert ...  Might have to do some home chrome plating for longevity? idk, cross that bridge when I come to it, I suppose?

Posted by mike_belben: "weld a dome on the piston"

Answer:

I really like the notion of forming a dome on top of the piston... That sounds like something that's pretty doable to me, without having to mess with bearing surfaces.   LOL  :-)

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2020, 01:34:01 PM »
If you cant bump the compression by cutting the base of a jug, just weld a dome on the piston. ... You can also epoxy the base cavity to increase the base compression ratio. ... will need a decompressor ... Ive put them vertical right next to the plug on jugs with no pad cast in. ... When you get that 170 to make a bunch of power the clutch will slip.
Great information there, Mike! Thanks for reply and sharing your knowledge and experience.

Doming piston and epoxy the base cavity sounds like some really good workarounds worth considering  :-)

Good to know best location for installing decompressor.

I'd say Mike, when the 170 puts out enough power that it's clutch start slipping, I've gone as far as I can take it, and it's time to stop!  LOL  >8'P



Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2020, 09:58:59 AM »
You probably wont find much extra space residing inside a clamshell compared to the split crankcase castings.  But youve got two compression ratios in a saw, thats why youll feel two lumps in the rope.  It only counts if you get the mix above the piston. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2020, 12:19:54 AM »
It only counts if you get the mix above the piston.
There doesn't seem to be many forums discussing improvements to be obtained from clamshell designs ... posts read thus far indicate it's worth while modifying clamshell for increased performance via widening ports in getting more mix "above the piston," as you've noted.

Here's one example of a forum discussion on porting clamshells ... https://opeforum.com/threads/clam-shell-porting.6133/



Offline donbj

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Southern BC, Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2020, 01:01:28 AM »
You probably wont find much extra space residing inside a clamshell compared to the split crankcase castings.  But youve got two compression ratios in a saw, thats why youll feel two lumps in the rope.  It only counts if you get the mix above the piston.
Mike, what do you mean by two compression ratios in reference to the two lumps in the rope? When you said that I realized the rope thing but can't picture what's going on "in there". Never really thought about that.
Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2020, 08:05:09 AM »
My research on various forums shows clamshell engines sometimes are "somewhat" ported (squishing/porting clamshells being problematic); more often modifications for performance enhancement utilize muffler mods, advancing ignition timing, & aftermarket carburetor re-tuning.

How much performance increase is managed?  YouBoob videos show about a 25% increase using above three simplest methods. 

Utilizing "log cut time test," going from unmodified 12 seconds cut time down to about nine seconds with modified saw, or in other words (if my math is correct lol) about 25% increase.

How much increase could you get with the full porting work? idk.  Have yet to locate YouBoob video showing fully ported clamshell saws tested.

Stock results, 12 seconds: https://youtu.be/lIjOaEMy0WE?t=45
Modified results 9 seconds: https://youtu.be/jSCzPxHOfRI?t=20



Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2020, 09:44:45 AM »



A 2 stroke sucks through the carb and into the block while the piston is rising.  The high vacuum of the pistons syringe like movement will get the motion started and then the high inertia of the fuel/air mass at WOT will continue to ram mixture into the block even as the piston descends which should spit fuel out but does not.  The port floor and skirt length dictate at what crank degree the "intake valve" closes and ends the suction event.  
Once the intake closes... the piston continues to descend, simultaneously compressing the crankcase gasses [the first lump] and then revealing the top of the piston by unblocking the top of the transfer port.  Now the piston becomes a trash compactor of sorts.  It shoves the junk from one chamber to the other.  Anything you can do to get more junk from the block to the jug will make for more cylinder pressure and torque when the plug fires.  
This is why we play with the size, shape, layback angle and timing of transfer ports.  If your block has lots of casting cavities it can fit more mixture, true.  But when the piston is trying to shove mix into the transfer leaving spots to hide reduces the quantity forced up. 
I have milled skirt windows in pistons to get the gas trapped under the pin to move over into the transfer port, with good results.  Remember syringes have flat bottoms. Hydraulic cylinders have flat faces. 4 stroke pistons have flat tops.  So a 2 stroke on the downstroke has a bunch of junk in the way of flow to the transfers
Filling in open corners and pockets with epoxy lowers the volume in the block which increases the compression ratio between block and combustion space.  Remember that combustion pressure is still high in the chamber and waiting to be exhausted.  when the transfer port opens higher pressure from the block helps the charge penetrate into the combustion space faster and more thoroughly.    Torque goes up. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2020, 09:45:50 AM »
Man i put like 20 spaces into that story.  I dont know why it loses them.
Revelation 3:20

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2020, 12:25:30 PM »
Once the intake closes... the piston continues to descend, simultaneously compressing the crankcase gasses ... Anything you can do to get more ... from the block to the jug will make for more cylinder pressure and torque when the plug fires.  
Good information to know Mike! I've never considered modifying crankcase volume for increased power  :-)
This is why we play with the size, shape, layback angle and timing ...when the piston is trying to shove mix into the transfer leaving spots to hide reduces the quantity forced up.  
Satisfying to have your explanation of "why" behind increased power... I will need to look further into layback angle, as at this juncture, can't comprehend it's involvement ...

"leaving spots to hide" sounds familiar to the explanation of crowned pistons, where "leaving places to hide" results in unburned fuel...makes sense from that perspective.
Quote from: mike_belben on Wed Dec 30 2020 08:44:45 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time)
"I have milled skirt windows in pistons to get the gas trapped under the pin to move over into the transfer port, with good results."

Mike, I have read of this concept before, and still have more learning to go to completely comprehend how and where best to apply this process on MS170 I'm learning on.

Quote from: mike_belben on Wed Dec 30 2020 08:44:45 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time
Remember that combustion pressure is still high in the chamber and waiting to be exhausted.  when the transfer port opens higher pressure from the block helps the charge penetrate into the combustion space faster and more thoroughly.    Torque goes up.

I have certainly learned a lot through your posts Mike.  Thank you. That's one of the best things about being human: No one has to know everything. We can all learn from each other.  That works great!

Long as one can sort out the liars! lol ;-P ...  One of my favorite sayings: "Those who can, do.  Those who can't do, teach.  Those who can't teach, teach gym classes (Woody Allen).  Those who can't teach, preach. and Those who can't preach, are politicians"  LOL  :-D

Offline donbj

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Southern BC, Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2020, 01:49:42 PM »



A 2 stroke sucks through the carb and into the block while the piston is rising.  The high vacuum of the pistons syringe like movement will get the motion started and then the high inertia of the fuel/air mass at WOT will continue to ram mixture into the block even as the piston descends which should spit fuel out but does not.  The port floor and skirt length dictate at what crank degree the "intake valve" closes and ends the suction event.  
Once the intake closes... the piston continues to descend, simultaneously compressing the crankcase gasses [the first lump] and then revealing the top of the piston by unblocking the top of the transfer port.  Now the piston becomes a trash compactor of sorts.  It shoves the junk from one chamber to the other.  Anything you can do to get more junk from the block to the jug will make for more cylinder pressure and torque when the plug fires.  
This is why we play with the size, shape, layback angle and timing of transfer ports.  If your block has lots of casting cavities it can fit more mixture, true.  But when the piston is trying to shove mix into the transfer leaving spots to hide reduces the quantity forced up.
I have milled skirt windows in pistons to get the gas trapped under the pin to move over into the transfer port, with good results.  Remember syringes have flat bottoms. Hydraulic cylinders have flat faces. 4 stroke pistons have flat tops.  So a 2 stroke on the downstroke has a bunch of junk in the way of flow to the transfers
Filling in open corners and pockets with epoxy lowers the volume in the block which increases the compression ratio between block and combustion space.  Remember that combustion pressure is still high in the chamber and waiting to be exhausted.  when the transfer port opens higher pressure from the block helps the charge penetrate into the combustion space faster and more thoroughly.    Torque goes up.
Thanks for that Mike. I appreciate the time you took for that detail! Going to read that a couple more times to get more of it. I guess I should take an old cylinder and piston and note the ports as it travels up and down.
I never really did much wrenching on two stroke, just ran em. Picking up two pickup loads of chain saws I better get with the program! Thanks again.
Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2020, 01:51:23 PM »
Well, im a pretty good preacher too. 


Make the top of the transfers point the charge at the carb so it:

A. Pushes as much spent gas out the exhaust as possible

B. Doesnt blow fresh fuel right out the exhaust port during overlap. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2020, 01:55:56 PM »
Youre welcome don.  Take one of the junk saws and cut the jug in half.  Also pull one side of the case and youll have your model.  



Whenever i do a saw i am porting the case and transfers together as one unit for flow quality, no ledges or lips left behind.  I will trade compression for laminar flow any day. 




  If theres anything turbulent and im feeling frisky enough to do all the work, it gets epoxied.  Devcon A2 with full paint removal, dimpling for tooth and usually drilling and pinning in tig filler rods for the epoxy to bond to if its a big chunk.  None has ever come off.  I did it in automotive intake ports and oil pumps for years.  And no i didnt learn it on youtube, i taught myself.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2020, 07:20:23 AM »
I have milled skirt windows in pistons to get the gas trapped under the pin to move over into the transfer port, with good results.  
Mike, in a video series explaining porting by Scott Kunz, I've located an easy-to-comprehend (for me) explanation concerning removing some piston skirt, so as to create a "window" ... porting video series part 3, squish part 2 - YouTube ...  

This adds to my understanding of your post, about modifying piston and allowing gases passage from underneath piston ...

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7021
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2020, 09:46:21 AM »
If i glue a dixie cup to your table and fill it withwater then say empty it, what would you do?


Drill holes in the sides. 


Picture it that way when looking at crankcase flow. The magic under the piston cant get over the wall created by the piston skirts, so help it get through them.  The transfer entrances are next to the pin, which isnt along the thrust axis.  Bottom of the skirts at north and south is critical but not east and west.  Im not saying a piston cant break but thats up to you to determine as the builder. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2021, 09:02:00 AM »
...The magic under the piston cant get over the wall created by the piston skirts, so help it get through them.  The transfer entrances are next to the pin, which isnt along the thrust axis.  Bottom of the skirts at north and south is critical but not east and west.
Mike,

Researches into porting techniques has shown that there is definitely more than one way to get the job done, and my understanding is benefiting from seeing different methods and what results.

Your postings have been very helpful in pointing me to resources and ideas I never would have thought of, which helps to congeal understanding of the principles behind "why" modifications enhance performance.  

I'd say that's where the "magic" happens   lol  ;-)

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2021, 09:22:28 AM »
Don

Don't know if you've already made a "study model" from a junk saw as Mike's suggested? 

If it would be useful, here's video of cutaway model with accompanying explanations:


Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2021, 12:18:20 PM »
Customizing my "B.S. 170+" chainsaw to best suit my particular purposes and preferences, I'm planning adding an additional top handle with throttle control.

I'm speculating that having two handles will give me the best of both worlds and the most utility out of my chainsaw?

What do you think about the utility of having a 2-handle saw?  Is adding top handle worth the bother?  I'm curious to know opinions.

Offline donbj

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Southern BC, Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2021, 12:05:15 AM »
Don,

Don't know if you've already made a "study model" from a junk saw as Mike's suggested?


If it would be useful, here's video of cutaway model with accompanying explanations:



That's on the list for sure. Many thanks for the link! I watched a couple of that fellows videos. Very informative and straight forward. Helped alot.
Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100

Offline lxskllr

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1936
  • Age: 52
  • Location: MD USA
  • Gender: Male
  • dummy with saw
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2021, 09:16:14 AM »
Extra handles = extra weight. That eats into the big advantage of little saws. I think it might also throw the balance off in top handle use.

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2021, 10:43:06 AM »

Extra handles = extra weight. That eats into the big advantage of little saws. I think it might also throw the balance off in top handle use.
All valid points you've brought up...  

Unclear concerning balance? ... top-handle for limbing, one-handed use... suppose I'd have to try & find out? ...  

keeping weight down, could form handle with larger sized PVC pipe... Once pipe's filled with hot sand & becomes pliable, one can bend/squash, pretty much (within reason) form whatever shape's needed ...  That's one method some utilize in forming frames for their DIY snow shoes ...  

Farmertec website has spare parts at ridiculously low prices; couple dollars gets trigger pieces for building secondary top handle ... Downside's ETA three weeks delivery, so most folk won't bother utilizing this resource...

To my way of thinking, tricky part's handle attachment... I've a few notions  along the lines of how to get there...

Offline sawguy21

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11312
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Enderby B.C. Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2021, 11:45:18 AM »
Saws are not designed to be used with one hand! If it kicks back you have no control. Be careful, we would rather talk to you not about you. I would not sell a top handle to a consumer.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2021, 12:18:34 PM »

Saws are not designed to be used with one hand! If it kicks back you have no control.
HHHHHHHhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuummmmmmmm...

Very good of you to bring that up! ...  I hadn't thought that far along ...  I know people limbing use saws (improperly) one handed...

I've concluded: necessary designing into handle a safety feature, such that in event saw kicks back, instantaneously brake's applied.  

One may not be able to prevent one-handed usage (there is that saying "You can't fix stupid"),  however, proposed safety feature would be equally  preventative with kickback as saw's chain brake is in two-handed use.

There's no getting around it: using a chainsaw is dangerous work; there is a limit to which preventive measures can prevail.

Many times I'm reminded, that the best "safety device" in preventing accidents sits underneath the hard hat.

Offline lxskllr

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1936
  • Age: 52
  • Location: MD USA
  • Gender: Male
  • dummy with saw
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2021, 12:39:45 PM »
Regarding balance... Dunno. That's something I'd have to feel to know. IMO, balance is king with a saw. I'd rather use a well balanced heavy saw, than a light one with bad balance. I'm also a little skeptical of homemade handles, both in comfort and longevity. Maybe a bar that connects to the front and rear handles? Would probably work, but then you're working around it in rear handle use. How to setup the trigger(s)?

Regarding one handing top handles... I think the safety aspect is a little nuanced. We all know why they were created, and it wasn't for two handed use. Two handed is better, but sometimes it isn't practical, and the safe approach is to use one hand. One should be cognizant of the increased risk, and take steps to counter it. The biggest danger is becoming blas about it, and swinging it all over the place cause it's so easy to do. Sloppiness regardless of saw style will end up biting you.

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2021, 03:27:03 PM »
...Maybe a bar that connects to the front and rear handles? Would probably work, but then you're working around it in rear handle use. How to setup the trigger(s)? ...

I've come along the same pathway in my thinking process concerning handle placement... needs to be sturdy; yet at the same time, out of the way for using original, rearmost handle.

Top handle also has to be detachable, so that you can open the top cover to change air filters and get at the guts of the saw.   The natural way to do that, would be to attach top handle onto top cover, but that won't work, because strength of top cover is insufficient to withstand loads handle would transfer to the top cover.

Natural conclusion would be that top handle itself would have to be attached, passing loads through the top cover getting strength/support by gripping something substantially strong underneath top cover at the rearmost of the top handle (near where the top cover has its attachment).

Top handle would need to grip at it's front, that bar which goes crosswise saw (doubtless someone will come along who knows proper terminology for this piece lol), remain attached through top cover, and yet be strong enough while still removable with top cover.  Requires some interesting development work to be practical, eh? :-D

I apologize that conception is not easiest to describe and consequently picture in one's mind, but that's about the best I can manage. Perhaps it'd be best to illustrate with sketch of top handle concept I've in mind, posting with this description, thereby easing visualization of what's being considered? idk

I have some methods in mind to proceed along these lines, but it would take trial and error finding what worked best.  

One doubts it's the case for majority of people, but for me, this is a fun exercise, working/puzzling my way through to successful conclusion  lol  :-)

Operating top handle's trigger would require internally operating rear handle's trigger at the same time, and as they would be linked, this would apply vice versa.  Interesting conundrums to resolve lol  :-)

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2021, 09:23:00 AM »
Regarding balance... Dunno. That's something I'd have to feel to know. IMO, balance is king with a saw.
B.S.170+ ...I've been lucky trying approaches for DIY top handle so far... One of the things I've tried seems to be able to preserve balance and stay out of the way of the rear handle and the top cover removal... It looks like it will be doable  to run a linkage from top handle trigger down to bottom handle's throttle trigger ...  More work to go sorting it all out   lol :-)  Brad

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2021, 07:57:23 AM »
Thought I would put in an update for folks following this thread as far as progress on the build.

I've purchased a shorter 14 inch bar (for 3/8 chain) to go on the chainsaw (came to me with a 16 inch bar), which is plenty enough for limbing.

3/8 inch chains and replacement 3/8 clutch drum chain sprocket,  with the idea of getting away from the Pico 3/8 chain and going to a beefier stronger more aggressive chain to  make best use of increased power porting will give B.S.170 +

Mostly I'm still studying porting threads by such gurus as Mastermind, Ironhorse, Tree monkey and others, sorting out which methods I wish to employ, and determining how far I want to take porting work.  There is a lot to  absorb with a steep learning curve, and a lot of differences in methodologies employed with the different builders lol :-)

Anticipating arrival of more tooling and parts; porting should go smoother with tungsten carbide bits.

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2021, 08:36:47 AM »
Quick update for those following along this thread:

While I'm waiting for throttle trigger parts to ship in from China (for added 2nd top handle) and for eBay orders like tungsten carbide burr bits to arrive, I wanted to continue making progress with ;-) STILL (a) "B.S.170+" project, so I started constructing a toolbox case to hold chainsaw and accouterments.

Everywhere I looked online they wanted too much money for a chainsaw case but toolboxes were cheap, and sheaths fitting over bar were also quite affordable, so "badda bing, bada bang."  

Put the two together and you have a customized chainsaw carrying case to put your tools, bar and 2-cycle oil and whatever else all in one convenient location, in a lockable hard convenient plastic case.

Took my chainsaw without the bar and no oil or gas in it into different stores selling tool boxes, and I had no idea how many toolboxes would NOT fit my chainsaw properly.  lol

After the 4th store, I was starting to become frustrated, when at Home Depot found a Husky brand, 22-inch toolbox that fit my B.S.170+ chainsaw perfectly, with extra room left inside for various accouterments & tools AND top tray didn't even have to be cut to fit around my chainsaw handle!  :-)   We are happy now, with my purchase lol.

This really wasn't an original idea, because there's all kinds of DIY tutorials on "how to make a case for your chainsaw from a toolbox" if you want to look around online, but for me at least (being on a budget), this work-around makes for a good and practical solution.  

I have too many places for my money to go, to spend $50 to $80 on a chainsaw case, that really wouldn't do everything I wanted anyway.

Now all I have to do is find some Allis Chalmers orange paint, and I'll be able to have toolbox/bar sheath match high visibility clothing required at work.  

That'll make me look like I know what I'm doing, for all those "armchair experts," by having all colors matching  LOL  :-D   Beware: "straw-boss supervisors" are everywhere!  lol  ;-P


Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2021, 08:46:28 PM »
Brief update on B.S.170+, while waiting for ordered parts to arrive:

Having read on quite a few forums, unless you've a sharp blade, however powerful your saw, you don't have anything much impressive.

Taking this into consideration, I've ordered original Oregon PowerSharp starter kit, and for comparison, a Chinese knockoff sharpening cartridge, plus 5 chainsaw chains to experiment and modify/determining if something DIY works as well or better, via using a top-down sharpening profile.

With a three week lead time, some parts've arrived from FarmerTec and were installed, converting chainsaw bar to side adjustable & metal felling dogs installed, replacing ineffective OEM plastic dogs.

It didn't seem as though air filter on MS 170's was all that great a design,  so I have doubled up on my filtering by supplementing OEM with foam air filter.  

I'm speculating foam might restrict air flow, but loss's worthwhile, having superior filtration/keeping crud out of carburetor & preventing into engine.

Further investigating porting posts, watching guru's tutorials & reading  instructional forums  :-)

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2021, 10:18:00 AM »
We're snowed in with near blizzard conditions, boss texted: "no work" outside today, so busy studying porting forums and videos, instead of doing housework that I eventually can't escape! lol  :-)  ...

One Forum mentioned 20% increase in power via changing out piston and cylinder intended for MS 180 being a straightforward "bolt onto MS170" modification; so've ordered FarmerTec's MS 180 piston and cylinder kit (expected three-week ETA). 

Should be fun and interesting verifying if a significant 20% increase in power results?  Never anticipated such as increase for only a 1 mm difference in piston size?   Seems odd MS180 cylinder/piston actually bolts directly onto an MS 170, sans further modifications?

It's reassuring, need not fear wrecking MS170 cylinder during learning porting process, as cylinder and piston that came with MS170 will become spare parts irregardless.

Not hearing most encouraging opinions concerning connecting rod's strength used in MS170.   One needs proceed carefully, according to some forum postings, as having too much power increase could become of concern? idk

Offline sablatnic

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Location: Denmark
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2021, 06:35:39 PM »
Re tophandle, have you considered one long handle to do the job as both front and rear handle, like the Homlite xl2?

Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2021, 11:38:44 AM »

Re tophandle, have you considered one long handle to do the job as both front and rear handle, like the Homlite xl2?
Thanks for pointing out Homelite XL2's long handle.  It's always good to start by reviewing other's "proven solutions" to an issue, before "reinventing the wheel"  lol.  XL2 does give me pause to think, some engineers once considered having a top and back handle of sufficient service, to develop their version.  :-)

Attempted to locate XL2's handle design on "Chainsaw Collectors Corner" and was surprised seeing 4 separate entities under "Homelite" for manufacturers. :-P   Supposing way companies are bought and sold these days, one almost needs internet, just to keep track of who owns what, by whom?  :)

Photos located comparing XL2's longish top handle versus  Homelite "normal" back handle, intimates XL2's design appears to me a bit of compromise, being just shorter in length of positioning than typical back handles?  

Of concern: operating throttle trigger (if lacking front and back position triggers).  I'm wondering how that works out for the operator? idk

Comparison photo from closed auction site showing both types: of handle side-by-side https://bid.kaufman-auctions.com/lot-details/index/catalog/26066/lot/3866832#mz-expanded-view-1480800067871



Offline nimblebee

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Oskaloosa Kansas
  • Gender: Male
  • Old enough to know better, still too young to care
    • Share Post
Re: Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2021, 07:09:06 AM »
Having finished reading ecopy of Jenning's "Two-stroke Tuners Handbook", I can see large learning curve spreading out before me! .... >8'@


Still to study: Blair's "Design and Simulation of Two-stroke Engines".


Understanding more about what enthusiasts have discovered & engineering principles behind decisions upon which design compromises were made, helps when reading various forums where experimenters share their porting techniques and findings.

It would seem perhaps best way in proceeding: small learning steps, making observations before going further into more advanced modifications and more detailed porting?

Clearly enough knowledge has been conveyed by this time, to take on contouring/removing casting/manufacturing defects and shaping inlet and exhaust ports.

Tempted, but leaving transfer mods for "further down the road" ;-)

One would anticipate following steps: adjusting stock timing (if needed), getting squish between .020 to .025.

Although I've already modded muffler, I'm still intrigued with concepts of a tuned exhaust (espoused by Jennings), as shown in some Ironhorse and Mastermind videos. Leaving that alone for now, there's more studying and learning involved in going there :-P  lol

I did learn one thing during ongoing studies:

When purchased for experimentation, parts chainsaw advert noted: "may have compression issues"... upon disassembly for porting build, bottom ring was very definitely broken, missing a chunk.  How's that for truth in advertising? ;-)  

Ring chunk's gone who-knows-where? Happily, new set of rings are on order.

Thankfully, only minor damage sustained, during "exit stage left"(Snagglepuss). Snagglepuss Exit Stage Left - YouTube






Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
New Stihl MS170 owner, second bar options

Started by rick carpenter on Chainsaws

3 Replies
2668 Views
Last post January 16, 2016, 08:43:00 PM
by luvmexfood
xx
Home Owner chainsaws???

Started by rbhunter on Chainsaws

39 Replies
19781 Views
Last post December 13, 2010, 07:13:05 AM
by Al_Smith
xx
How a Logger Cheated the Home Owner

Started by just_sawing on Sawmills and Milling

43 Replies
3063 Views
Last post November 03, 2020, 03:57:46 PM
by barbender
xx
Red and White Oak seasoned by home owner?

Started by Mach William on Drying and Processing

14 Replies
1732 Views
Last post January 04, 2013, 05:36:43 PM
by Magicman
 


Powered by EzPortal