Anybody sold Mushroom Logs?

[Old Greenhorn]

Ah, you guys have some crazy ideas. :D
 Let me address a few of these things though. The pricing by weight may sound like a good idea at first, but the reality is that it's a non-starter. Just because there are few sellers around here does not mean I can redefine how logs are sold.  Selling by weight would be a logistical nightmare and human nature being what it is the vast majority of residential buyers will go for the smaller cheaper logs. Also, nobody in this business cares what a log weighs, they care how many logs they need. Everything is by the log, not by the pound. Imagine the questions: "How many logs can I get for 100 pounds?" if you have ever had to explain over and over and over again what a 'board foot' is, imagine if I tried selling by the pound? All the buyers will go cheap. That leaves me holding the bag on the bigger logs and I won't do that. It would set me up for a big loss on my time. Likewise pricing by size is also a non-starter. Trees do not come in 4", 5" and 6" sizes. Each tree will yield from 8" down to 4", every tree. As I told my last buyer, I get what I get out of each tree and she has to accept the range because I will not leave good wood laying on the ground. I cannot spend time and produce waste trying to coddle to picky buyers. The buyers I really want is commercial, not 1-15 log buyers that I have to spend a lot of time with for a $15 sale. This is also not supposed to be a full time business income. I would hate it if it was, too boring doing the same thing all the time. To paraphrase Levon Helm "I ain't in this for the money (entirely)", but I am favoring a 'get in and get out' philosophy which means selling a bunch of logs to a few buyers and getting done and moving on. It adds variety to my yearly cycle.
 Also, I have said this a number of times, but maybe it got missed. These things have a shelf life of 4-6 weeks. You can't leave them out in the sun on display, they won't sell like cordwood. This is a specialty field that requires other materials, knowledge and tools. Its not something folks will do on a whim.
 Nebraska, sealing logs is a good idea and I have asked this question of the experts I've met. Nobody has done a study on it and the general wisdom is that the ends of the log need to be able to absorb moisture during the soaking cycle, so they all (so far) have recommended not sealing the logs. I still think it might add to the shelf life but what do I know? They do advise to seal bruises and branch cuts with wax though, which adds to my confusion. I don't write the science here, I just cut logs.
 I appreciate the continued input, but there are a lot of, moving parts and technical issues as well as 'customer proclivities" involved in this tiny business. I have spent a lot of time figuring it out and don't think I will ever nail it completely, but it is interesting. The customers run the gamut from flaky to pros and seems to me it is much like the cross section most sawyers run into. (Think: "how much will you pay me to cut down my highly valuable walnut tree?")

[WV Sawmiller]

   @#)&%$! Fat fingered another reply off into cyberspace. I hate it when I do that.

   Great write up. Thanks for collecting and writing up your findings in such detail. I concur this does not look like a profitable stand alone enterprise and needs to be combined with other work although TSI sounds like a non-starter as you mentioned since these are likely the same trees people want to save.

   I like getting the urban wannabees suggestion. Charge them a fee to come cut and haul mushroom logs. Like people paying major universities a big fee to go on an archeological dig. They pay to go do all the grunt work under a supervising professor who gets all the credit.

    Think of Eustace Conway (Mountain Men TV series) down near Hickory NC who conducts workshops and people pay to come learn how to make shingles or skin a hog, tan a hide, pick blackberries or such on his Turtle Island Preserve. Also he gets interns who come work for free to learn his lifestyle. I'm on his mailing list and it is amazing what people will pay to come see and do.

   I assume you'd have people sign a waiver but you'd still likely need a good liability insurance policy with a safety plan and program approved by the insurance company.

   Sourcing wood?

    Can you conduct workshops as a consultant and charge a fee to have people come to their woodlot and show/train them the type trees needed and how to process them?

    Can you sell your services to come cut a set number of logs for people with them providing the trees? Be sure your pricing includes a minimum show up fee and is set up to make a minimum acceptable wage whether they have good or poor trees. Kind of like a minimum fee to bring a sawmill then charge by the hour or bf based on the conditions you find when you get there.

    How about cutting on shares where the landlord gets a certain percentage of the number of mushroom logs you cut off his property. Pricing would have to account for poor, medium or good woodlots. Maybe the owner gets a higher percentage based on larger quantities so the more logs his woodlot provides the more he gets to encourage access to better woodlots. Either you let him have and use or market his share of the logs or you market or buy them back from him. My dad and his brother used to cut firewood on shares as kids. The landlord got the first cut off the butt log off the tree and it was split, stacked and delivered to his place and they got the rest of the tree.

   Partnership with logger in the area especially where clear cutting will be done and the smaller trees you want will be cut. I'd think this would require some scheduling to let you go in first so the trees were not damaged by other larger falling trees in the area. A harder sell but might work in some cases. 

   How about construction/building sites where you get first access to high grade the useable trees then they come clear the rest as needed as part of their normal site prep work? It might take a while to get the right contacts for this and I don't know how you compensate them to encourage their support unless you give them a few logs or mushrooms and I assume you are not interested in the growing mushrooms aspect.

[aigheadish]

I like those ideas WV Sawmiller!

I thought similarly, about some woodworking stuff, to your last point, regarding construction sites. It's not uncommon, around here, to see a chunk of woods get knocked over for some developer to build McMansions on and I thought it'd be neat to get in ahead of time to acquire a fair amount of the good wood, before it was knocked over. Then, in consultation with the developer or home builders discuss pieces of furniture that could be built to be sold to, for, or with the houses being built there. Maybe it's a bar top, or a dining room table, or a mantle, or crown moulding, but I think the folks buying the houses would love to have pieces, in their house, that came from the property, at a premium. I don't know if idea this is a thing or not, but if not anyone is welcome to steal it. 

That could turn into a semi-neverending revenue stream, especially if you are reasonably skilled and get some workflow together, and a decent relationship with some home builders.

I think just about any company out there would love to tag any of their promotional stuff with how "responsibly" they use or take down trees, and they could brag about feeding people with the mushrooms those logs help create. There is tons of companies out there virtue signaling for all kinds of garbage, this would be an opportunity for them to signal for something good.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   A question I meant to ask earlier and is probably covered somewhere here or in your sister thread but who and how are the logs inoculated? Do you include that as part of your service when you sell the customer his logs or does the buyer have to do that himself? How are they inoculated? Do you buy a little bag of spores you sprinkle on the logs or something? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.

[Old Greenhorn]

Ah, now I got your disease. I typed a long comprehensive answer then fat fingered the entire browser window into oblivion. 2nd attempt:
 I just cut the logs, after that choices have to be made. I leave that to the grower.
 The logs are drilled with rows of 5/8" holes about 3/4-1" deep spaced about 4-6" apart. There are 4-6 rows of holes spaced around the log depending on diameter. The holes are filled with either loose spores or plugs purchased form a lab that makes them. The species and type are up to the grower. After inoculating, the holes are waxed over to seal them and any bark defects are waxed also. Then they sit, stacked in a cool shady place in the woods with as much airflow around the log as possible.
 There may be one small flush at the end of the season (fall) if the logs were prepped early enough in the spring. The following spring, when the weather conditions are right, the logs are either soaked or watered heavily for 24 hours to simulate heavy spring rains, then the logs are 'thumped', that is whacked on the end with a heavy hammer or mallet (I am NOT making this up) which is supposed to simulate the tree hitting the ground and wake up the mycelium (if I'm lyin', I'm dyin'). Then they get stacked again and in about 3 weeks (I think) they are about ready to harvest. Full time production growers will run a group of logs each week, that way they are harvesting every week, the logs need (I think) 3 weeks to rest after harvesting before then can be cycled again.
 Now it's true there is much bigger money in selling fully inoculated logs, but you have to choose a species, get the tools and materials and do the work, which is not too difficult, just work. Then you have to sit on them until sold but they will hold for the better part of the year before they hit a fruiting season. Inoculated logs sell for $25.-$40./ea plus shipping. AT this point I am just not ready to go there yet. Not everything is about the money. Buyers will of course hold you responsible for the log yield down the road regardless of how they took care of them. I am not too fond of that aspect.
 Anyway. I hope this answered your questions.

 Oh, and of course, now that I am done for the season I got a text from a new buyer who wants about 20 logs ASAP and wants to know how soon they could pick them up.  :D :D :D :D

[Nebraska]

Awww bummer folks  snooze you loose... it's obviously  after the end of legal mushroom log season, that was celebrated a few days ago... getting more towards dance board wood sawing, bench making, and I better cut firewood season.  ;)

[Old Greenhorn]

I drilled 15,000 holes last summer in ironwood and oak logs.  Spores were plugs, and capped with wax.

Will let you know how I make out this summer with the first crop.

Hey @dustintheblood ! This was 3.5 years ago, wondering how all that work worked out for you?

[SwampDonkey]

Never see anything like it around here. Shaga was going to be a big thing according to media hype. It kinda works like a pyramid scheme, the collector wasn't getting much when travel and time was factored in. Anyone I knew doing it was in the off season, seasonal worker or hobby farmer. You have to have an idea of where to look and have access, so most collectors tend to be woodlot owners or work a lot on public land. I could count on one hand the number of people who I knew about that were once interested. Only knew of one buyer in these parts. When there is only one buyer, it never works well for the collectors. 

[Oth]

Never see anything like it around here. Shaga was going to be a big thing according to media hype. It kinda works like a pyramid scheme, the collector wasn't getting much when travel and time was factored in. Anyone I knew doing it was in the off season, seasonal worker or hobby farmer. You have to have an idea of where to look and have access, so most collectors tend to be woodlot owners or work a lot on public land. I could count on one hand the number of people who I knew about that were once interested. Only knew of one buyer in these parts. When there is only one buyer, it never works well for the collectors. 

I don't know how 'professional' foragers manage it. I've heard of folks who start down south in February and work their way north through May as the morel season creeps along. The vast knowledge of particular spots that no one else knows about to make that work is staggering. You can't really just count on wandering around in the woods. You've got to know your trees down pat and be willing to walk for a quite a while with no guarantee of reward. Specifically on morels, I have to think they're getting pricier since half of my few local spots were mycorrhizal with ash trees. All gone now

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, you guys are talking mostly about 'foraging' which is finding and collecting mushrooms in the wild. I know very little about that and don't work with those folks. Here in NYS, by the way, you now need a permit and certification to forage if you want to sell them to shops or restaurants, or even individuals. The certification is not easy, you have to take a class which runs 3 days over 3 weekends and pass the test, which in part requires identifying over 200 different mushroom types. I was 'around when my friend and client John was working of the class syllabus for that program and he taught part of the first few pilot programs. I thought I might take it, just for fun, but when I read the class plans, I realized it was like another job requiring a LOT of study and I backed off. I didn't think I could pass that test, in any event.

 I work with growers, from the curious "I just wanna try it" types, to the full time "doing it for years" full farming operations. It's not a pyramid scheme for the latter, they are making good money. But the dirty little secret is: It's a LOT of work. Full time farmers are used to that and have the equipment and faculties. They also need the high end targeted marketing, direct to high end restaurants or major specialty wholesale outlets. That is THE key to it all, selling take work that a lot of folks don't like to do or have the skills for.

 This story is not typical, BUT it is an interesting example. When I first got started I had a guy from NJ come get a BUNCH of logs (close to 200). We hit it off and chatted a while. This was still in the depths of COVID days and it turned out he was a body building, weight lifting coach, and personal trainer. He was trying the mushroom logs just to fill in some time and thought they were fascinating 'things'. Well he inoculates his logs and sets them up around his place. He thought he would have to wait a year, but that first fall he discovers he has mushrooms popping out all over and now he has a full time job for a few weeks clipping and drying his crop. He had a big mess of mushrooms and no idea what to do with them all he is giving them away to family and neighbors and still has a pile. So he mentions it to a friend and that friend suggested bring some over to the gourmet restaurant around the corner. Well, the Chef takes some and tries them. He calls the guy back and says he will buy every mushroom the guy has. He is still buying them and BOOM, he's in business. He's been back every year to get more logs and expand, and grow at least 3 different strains. Shitakes, Wine caps, and Lion's Mane. We stay in touch. This year he has quit his job and although he is still selling, he didn't buy logs as he has gone back to school for an engineering degree. But he told me to expect and order next year. 

 But I want to find out how @dustintheblood made out with all those holes.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, I know some folks found out in a hurry around here, if you sell mushrooms it's like running a meat shop, a license plus your premises where you prepare it can be inspected at any time.

[Frickman]

Twenty-five years ago we had a big fad of growing shitake mushrooms come through here.  Everyone was going to get rich.  I had a lot of orders for logs.  Let me tell you something, as a logger/sawmiller who was extremely busy all the time it was not worth the effort.  Oh, producing the "bolts" was easy enough. I could always cut them out of oak tops as I felled the trees.  It was the special handling that cost time and money.  Here I was running a conventional operation hand-cutting timber and skidding with small cable skidders and forwarders.  I was skidding tree length and cut-to-length logs, eight feet long and longer.  And then I had to figure out how to skid/forward three and four foot long sticks and not scuff up the bark when doing so.  No thank you, it's not for me.  And then the customers always were very, very picky about quality, no scuff marks or scratches on the bark.  They always thought I just went to the "log warehouse" and picked up a load of logs.  They never realized wood is a natural product and the process to produce logs is very physical and dangerous. 

I can see if a person had access to the wood, cheap, and a way to cut it and handload directly on a pickup truck or tractor and cart you could make it work.  And then your marketing has to be top-notch.  You have to sell the "sizzle" along with the "steak" to get enough $ to make it all worthwhile.

Back when I was in the industry I made a name for myself working in a lot of specialty and niche markets nobody else would enter.  It made me a good living.  Mushroom logs was not one of those markets.

Oh, and one more thing.  It was hard to get a good price out of mushroom logs because "It's just wood." Around here, nobody thinks wood is worth anything until they have some to sell.  And then they always want a fortune.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I have been cutting these logs since 2020, and one thing I will say is that there is not one thing that you said that I don't agree with.   Spot on, right down the line.
 I am not surely not trying to make a living off these logs, I do it to add to my income seasonally for a change of pace and I have my price up to where it really does make a difference and is worthwhile (for me). But it is everything you said it was as far as hard work and yeah, I do lift and carry every logs, at least 3 times if I'm lucky, 5 if I'm not.
 BUT, as you said, there is a lot in the marketing end and a lot of folks don't have the time, patience, or finesse to deal with that part. I have built a small but valued list of framers that really do grow mushrooms for market as part of the crops, and they are pretty easy to deal with, especially after the first sale. They know that I understand their business, take it very seriously, and keep my promises. They also know they get good logs from me. I took a few years to build that rep, but it's working now. I picked up 3 new farms this season because I am the only guy around they can find and get return calls from, let alone logs.
 Treat it like a business and you can build it, treat it like a source for some extra cash and it won't do much for you. I started at $3/log, that ended quick and I went to $4/log which was nearly break even or a little better, $5/log and I started to see some daylight. Now I am at $6/log and it's pretty darn good money. If folks don't like my price I happily refer them to others who proport to sell these logs in our state. One did buy logs from another guy and called me up 3 weeks later, drove 3 hours to get here and bought logs from me. The other logs he got, he said were junk and all dried out, sitting around for months he thought.

 Funny you post this today. I had a series of correspondences today with a gal at one of the county (not mine) cooperative extensions connected with Cornell University (also a former log client of mine). She is putting together a new program for loggers in September. Something about 'Alternative revenue streams for loggers'. She had asked if I could prepare a session on cutting logs as it seems I am the only one in our state that is doing it as a business, keeping notes, and selling every season, with repeat clients. I sell logs in 3 states now.
 But you are right, it IS a LOT of work! Some days it kills me. But at least now I can afford to pay my chiropractor.

[Old Greenhorn]

Seems like this thread gets an update about this time each year. This is my 5th year doing this and now my age is really showing and this season it was tough slogging to just get out 500 logs which will be completed within a week or so.
 I am seriously considering not doing this anymore simply because of the physical work involved even though I really do enjoy an excuse to get out and work in the woods. I also enjoy seeing the results of the TSI work this provides, making the woods more accessible and useful to the property owner. In the last 3 years we have gotten a pretty good handle on how to select trees for harvest while at the same time improving the woodlot. What began as a way for me to get logs with a side benefit of some selective cutting has now transformed fully into a 50/50 relationship where the landowner is quite pleased with what he is seeing develop and seeks to mark trees for me to cut when I am not even looking. In fact, he is not happy that I am considering quitting. We are trying to come up with a way to move forward. I also have a semi-dedicated client base that is also at a loss as to how to proceed with me out of the picture. They too are not happy. This all tells me something.

 Early on I did a lot of work with Cornell University, but the head guy I dealt with was tough to communicate with and did not follow up on a lot of things. I find this common with academics, even the 'field folk' types. The mycologist at the county cooperative Crnell Extension was also the same. Two projects that she asked me to participate in and no follow up and never happened, she was more interested in grants. That Cornell guy was more interested in growing his own farm rather than doing his job. Well he finally left to do his own farm work full time and a new guy was hired in. I heard last week the new guy is pretty good and enthusiastic. SO today I sent him an email introducing myself and asking (once again) that he (Cornell) correct some misinformation on their mushroom education pages as well as one other thing that was supposed to be fixed 4 years ago and never was. I also offered any knowledge I could offer on my tiny little niche in the mushroom world. We'll see if he even responds.

 For this year I am seriously considering inoculating my own logs and trying to sell those. It would command a much better profit margin, but sales and marketing would be a lot more work. They also have a shelf life and I would have to figure that out. If it is 'over' for me, it was a good run and I learned (and seated) a lot, which makes it a winner for me.

 Now if anybody here ever decides to get into it and finds this thread, don't hesitate to contact me and I will help you any way I can.

[Big_eddy]

My immediate reaction reading this (and your other thread) is that you should increase your prices again. There is clearly a market, and no other source. You have more demand than you can/want to handle.  If you double your price, you might reduce your volumes, sure. But even if your sales drop by half, your revenue is the same and your work was halved as well. Might be a lot less inclined to give it up if you don't feel quite so pressured.

Every time we wonder why we're still in the firewood business, we up our price. We haven't had a customer complain yet. 

Doubling might be extreme, but it might not be. Sounds like your customers know what they want, know you can deliver, and more importantly know that no-one else can.  You might think "it's just a log, no one in their right mind would pay double...." but to them, it is not just a log.

[SwampDonkey]

Capitalism Tom. You've got to capitalize. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I don't want to double my prices, that would be opportunistic and akin to gouging. I don't think that is fair to do to my repeat clients. It's not their fault I am old and feeble. Yes, I could raise it to 7 bucks a log, but that is about the limit. There is a guy up the line who sells good logs and he charges $4.00/log but he is not networking like I do and barely sells 200 logs/year. He still doesn't understand how I sell at my price ($6.) and manage to move so many logs.
 It's not all about the money, although that is nice and allows me to purchase things I need or enjoy like decent work clothes and boots. Truthfully I would get just as much enjoyment if I just focused on the TSI work on Bill's property and did not have to worry about cutting the mushroom logs and loading them out. I find it exciting to see the improvements we have accomplished in these few years. But yeah, the money is kind of nice too.

[doc henderson]

Tom, have you ever added up the money, subtracted cost for fuel and equipment then divided by the hours you spend.  If it is negative or less that you are worth, then you are running a charity.  How many mushrooms can a log grow and what do they cost at the store?  the customer is still getting a good deal. At least then you can compare it to other opportunities and do the stuff that you want and also the stuff that makes you money for beer and other good stuff.

[Big_eddy]

I wasn't totally serious about doubling your price. Rather I was suggesting you reconsider your price with an eye to increasing it to a point where the price, qty and enjoyment balance out. You enjoy the work. You enjoy seeing the results. You seem to enjoy the customer contacts. But there is too much work for the amount of enjoyment, and it's time to cut back. I get that. I'm not getting younger either. But instead of quitting and then doing all the TSI work for free, increase the price until the volume drops down to where it's still enjoyable and doesn't feel like work.

I'm always surprised at the costs associated with any of these activities. We did about 50 cords of firewood last year, and I'm just totalling up expenses. We spent over $3k on equipment and repairs, splitter enhancements and consumable tools like bars and chains. Add another $1200 in gas and diesel  (just for firewood), and the margins are getting slim. We also spent about $3k on truck fuel,  1/3 of which is directly firewood related. I'd hate to try to calculate our hourly wage - but we do enjoy being outside working together. But right now we are feeling "behind" which means pretty soon it's going to feel like a chore instead of fun.  And then our price will go up again to reduce demand without impacting total profit.

[Old Greenhorn]

I think I wouldn't go more than $7.00/log. However one other thing that occurred to me was to shorten my logs from 40" to 36".  6 inches may not sound like much, but on logs over 5" that extra weight can really make a difference on how long my legs last. Plus, my yield of logs per tree would likely go up. a 6" log 40" long weighs 51` pounds and an 8" is 91 pounds. Same sizes 36" long are 46 and 82 pounds respectively, plus I would get one more log out of a 30' stick. So a 30' stick would give me $54. but if I cut it at 36" lengths and upped the price to $7.00 it would get me $70.00. I cut between 80 and 100 trees for 500 logs which roughly tells me I could expect 90 to 150 'extra' logs cutting them shorter. It's subtle but it makes a difference. This and several other things have been bouncing around in my noggin.

[trimguy]

If you cut them shorter and lighter , it would definitely make them easier to handle and less abuse on your body. It sounds like you have mentioned to your clients that you are thinking about quitting and they are not happy. Maybe mention to them that next year it looks like you will have to go to $8 a log and see if there is any push back. 

When I went into business for myself years ago, the builder I worked for gave me a piece of advice
" if you get every job you look at / price , than your not charging enough ". 

With that being said , I have a hard time with pricing things higher than I think they should be, and sometimes I will find out that someone else estimated 1 1/2 - 2 times mine, which is definitely gouging, I have to sleep at night. But then again if people are paying that kind of money, why am I leaving it on the table. 

[Hilltop366]

Doesn't matter how much you charge if it is wearing thin you still won't want to do it.

Switching to TSI with collecting fire wood for the reward might be a better fit as you will not have to worry about scuffing up the bark so you can skid and block and split at your truck or mule and can be done on a more body friendly schedule with a more relaxed deadline.

Perhaps selling a few wood bundles if there is more wood than you want to burn to cover some expenses.

[Hilltop366]

I kind of had the same problem when I was snowplowing, I didn't want to do it any more but felt bad for the people that were going to have a hard time finding someone else to do it because the bigger outfits didn't want to do the small lots or driveways. I gave half of them a warning at the end of the season that I would not be back next year so the next year I did half and still didn't want to so at the end of that year I gave up the rest I don't miss it and only do our own properties and can do them in 3 or 4 hours instead of day and night, everyone found someone else to plow for them. My truck last a lot longer than they did before too.

[trapper]

Could you buy some from the guy up the road and resell?

[dougtrr2]

So many factors to consider.  Cutting the logs shorter might be the way to go.  But, I would make it clear to your old customers that it is happening and why.  Play up the age and effort angle.  As a consumer I would prefer a supplier let me know what is going on rather than being surprised that the price went up and the length went down.  That would seem to be less than upstanding.

Doug in SW IA