Illegal Logging

[SwampDonkey]

We do our best with what we have to go on.

Seen land marked and not straight lines, followed other features such as field edges or streams at the time. Some may have been subdivided from a larger parcel, following an old road. Everyone tends to assume the lines have to be dead straight.

Cousin was cutting wood this fall. The Royalton Road cuts a small parcel off his woodlot, so there is an "island" of land between the road and the brook. A neighbor comes along (doesn't own land in the area) and asked if he's cutting over the line. Nope I said, he owns to the brook. And across the road on the main block, the line continues along the brook to the south line, where it becomes a woods road. Been that way since his great grandfather. The land was only granted a generation before. It had a woman landowner on the grant, extremely rare in days I was always told women never owned land. I've assumed she was an only heir or husband died.
That same ground he was cutting, his father plowed for his grandfather when they lived up there many moons ago. You can tell the ground was farmed. The front of mine was too. The soil is like a garden.

[maple flats]

I've found that survey costs will vary considerably based on how complicated the past history is. Back about 1985 I bought a piece of land at a tax sale for $1500. It included about 30 acres. Since it only came with a tax deed, I tried to get it surveyed. 4 surveyors declined saying it had been thru a very long period of tax sales, repossessions and hand shake deals going back as far as 1862. An old now defunct single track railroad cut thru the property, along with one winding city street.
I started to research The deeds. It took me about 200 hrs over a 3 yr period before I got it figured out. Before I did that I had hired a title company to search it, a few weeks later, they said they were at a dead end. I owed them $500 for what they had. My roughly 200 hrs was after that. I used what they had and went from there. Before I got it all figured out I also ran into a road block. Fortunately I had a friend who worked for a title company. I told her about my problem and she said she would keep an eye open. As it turned out she had occasion to search one of the lines of an adjoining property. When doing that she found the missing link. Then with all of the old deeds  figured out (there were over 25 deeds) for some parts, none included the entire 30 acres.
I then took that info to a surveyor who then did a survey for $400. In the end I cut about 40 cords of ash, red maple and cherry, none of which was good for saw logs, just firewood. I then sold the parcel for $16,000 with a warranty deed, I had paid $1960 in taxes during my ownership in 9 years. I had originally thought I might split it into 4 building lots, 2 on that city street, and 2 down a dead end road on the opposite end of the property, which I already owned prior to this land. I had a perk test done and it would have required raised bed septic fields. That would make this rather marginal land not very saleable as 4 lots, thus we sold it all to one neighboring owner.

[mike_belben]

You made a fair return on it id say.  Sixteen grand was a pickup truck back then and itd have took a lot more than 200hrs to pay off.  50 to 70Gs now for the rollup windows right?  

[Tom King]

I like state roads as property lines.

[moodnacreek]

I like state roads as property lines.

That brings a lot of trash [both kinds] and every time they think it needs to be updated they take more land. I have been cheated bad by the states contractors who have protection from the capital. The state D.O.T. does not know or care where the lines are. They will dump dead deer here in the summertime. Then we have the power line maintenance , leave the branches where they fall. I better stop.

[WV Sawmiller]

I like state roads as property lines.

   Why? They get those surveys messed up just like everybody else does. Convenient but I don't really think they are any more accurate than most other surveys.

[SwampDonkey]

Guys, some places roads are not an issue in that sense, in fact the reverse complaint at times. I would say as soon as you get a lot of property owners and start adding buildings and power along dirt roads you probably run into some conflicts. But up here where I am with my woodlot and cousin's beside mine, this end of the Royalton road becomes known as "the Klondike". You can ask about anyone in Carleton county, NB where "the Klondike" is. No power, narrowed in, so bad that us owners have to do our own brushing back of the road most times. Bridge is 40 years old, wood and could need some maintenance , road is rarely graded on our end, probably once in 20 years that I can ever recall. Real thankful to get that much. I've lived here about 54 years, road is where it always was, brook to. The brook has changed, not so much in path, but water flow and silt from land clearing at the head water. As I said, some of us complain we ain't getting what you're get'n. That's just funny.

[Tom King]

Still better than neighbors sharing a property line.

[Magicman]

I like state roads as property lines.

It took 4 deeds with 3 different landowners to get our property lines corrected after the state straightened the road out that was our property line; ½ acre here and ¼ acre there.  We had to pay for the surveys and the legal/quitclaim deed fees. 

[Walnut Beast]

Guys, some places roads are not an issue in that sense, in fact the reverse complaint at times. I would say as soon as you get a lot of property owners and start adding buildings and power along dirt roads you probably run into some conflicts. But up here where I am with my woodlot and cousin's beside mine, this end of the Royalton road becomes known as "the Klondike". You can ask about anyone in Carleton county, NB where "the Klondike" is. No power, narrowed in, so bad that us owners have to do our own brushing back of the road most times. Bridge is 40 years old, wood and could need some maintenance , road is rarely graded on our end, probably once in 20 years that I can ever recall. Real thankful to get that much. I've lived here about 54 years, road is where it always was, brook to. The brook has changed, not so much in path, but water flow and silt from land clearing at the head water. As I said, some of us complain we ain't getting what you're get'n. That's just funny.

I bet you also have pretty cheap taxes 

[WV Sawmiller]

Still better than neighbors sharing a property line.

   Why again? They can come put the road over on your property and the next thing they will be doing is telling you your pasture fence is on the ROW and demanding you move it back and of course any other utilities such as water, gas or sewer or such come along use the road as a baseline and compound the problem. I don't find the state to be any better neighbor than my other neighbors (Who in my case are pretty good to get along with - I know this is not always the case.)

[Tacotodd]

The private road that I live on has a common drive running through our property. I’ve been thinking of putting a fence on our property line that’s on the other side of the drive. I’d show a picture but I’m to stubborn to figure out how to do it. 

I’ve said before: tech challenged and can barely take a picture with my phone. Let alone use a picture for anything other than to look at later!

[dgdrls]

The private road that I live on has a common drive running through our property. I’ve been thinking of putting a fence on our property line that’s on the other side of the drive. I’d show a picture but I’m to stubborn to figure out how to do it.

I’ve said before: tech challenged and can barely take a picture with my phone. Let alone use a picture for anything other than to look at later!

Would your fence impede access by others who depend on the drive to access their land?
D

[SwampDonkey]

I bet you also have pretty cheap taxes

Woodlot taxes are low up here, even outside town limits along a marked paved highway. I pay less than 40 cents an acre tax.

When I was a kid, there were 3 abandoned houses up there, one some family members grew up in. There was power up there in the 40's until early 70's. Pretty spot up there by the mountain, right along the US boundary. Not like it is a remote arctic outpost.

The last power pole got pushed over by loggers 3 years ago.



Still had the old tag. Was at least 70 years old.

[dgdrls]

I've found that survey costs will vary considerably based on how complicated the past history is. Back about 1985 I bought a piece of land at a tax sale for $1500. It included about 30 acres. Since it only came with a tax deed, I tried to get it surveyed. 4 surveyors declined saying it had been thru a very long period of tax sales, repossessions and hand shake deals going back as far as 1862. An old now defunct single track railroad cut thru the property, along with one winding city street.
I started to research The deeds. It took me about 200 hrs over a 3 yr period before I got it figured out. Before I did that I had hired a title company to search it, a few weeks later, they said they were at a dead end. I owed them $500 for what they had. My roughly 200 hrs was after that. I used what they had and went from there. Before I got it all figured out I also ran into a road block. Fortunately I had a friend who worked for a title company. I told her about my problem and she said she would keep an eye open. As it turned out she had occasion to search one of the lines of an adjoining property. When doing that she found the missing link. Then with all of the old deeds  figured out (there were over 25 deeds) for some parts, none included the entire 30 acres.
I then took that info to a surveyor who then did a survey for $400. In the end I cut about 40 cords of ash, red maple and cherry, none of which was good for saw logs, just firewood. I then sold the parcel for $16,000 with a warranty deed, I had paid $1960 in taxes during my ownership in 9 years. I had originally thought I might split it into 4 building lots, 2 on that city street, and 2 down a dead end road on the opposite end of the property, which I already owned prior to this land. I had a perk test done and it would have required raided bed septic fields. That would make this rather marginal land not very saleable as 4 lots, thus we sold it all to one neighboring owner.

Nice work Maple Flats,
Surveys that are challenged or problematic more often than not have two common issues,  insufficient research and insufficient range of measurement.

D

[SwampDonkey]

The pole is cedar, and down by the houses in the 70's they was all cut down and replaced. We never had cedar since. But them creosote poles after were replaced again with copper arsenate pine poles. Doubt they last 70 years.

[Tom King]

We've been here for 41 years, and there's never been any of those issues with the roads that you guys are talking about.  I don't see them ever changing the way they run.  On the other sides  of the two side roads, about a mile long, there is nothing but lake lots.  The road coming down the middle of our place, they've repaved at least four times (might have forgot a time, or two), and it's always in good shape.

On other stands of timber we have, with property lines shared by some other owner, there will be issues that come up with property lines, every ten, or 20 years.  It's not as bad as it used to be, before handheld GPS, but we have had some trees stolen.

Here, as long as the logger stays between the roads, it would be hard to go wrong.

[moodnacreek]

Guys, some places roads are not an issue in that sense, in fact the reverse complaint at times. I would say as soon as you get a lot of property owners and start adding buildings and power along dirt roads you probably run into some conflicts. But up here where I am with my woodlot and cousin's beside mine, this end of the Royalton road becomes known as "the Klondike". You can ask about anyone in Carleton county, NB where "the Klondike" is. No power, narrowed in, so bad that us owners have to do our own brushing back of the road most times. Bridge is 40 years old, wood and could need some maintenance , road is rarely graded on our end, probably once in 20 years that I can ever recall. Real thankful to get that much. I've lived here about 54 years, road is where it always was, brook to. The brook has changed, not so much in path, but water flow and silt from land clearing at the head water. As I said, some of us complain we ain't getting what you're get'n. That's just funny.

You know I have been up there and I envy your environment . 60 miles above N.Y.C. it can get ugly.

[moodnacreek]

I like state roads as property lines.

It took 4 deeds with 3 different landowners to get our property lines corrected after the state straightened the road out that was our property line; ½ acre here and ¼ acre there.  We had to pay for the surveys and the legal/quitclaim deed fees.  

It is always the property owner that pays.

[Tacotodd]

@dgdrls  I’m not going to be blocking any things at all. The fence in question will be running almost parallel with the drive. I’m just talking about 1 fence in single file but about 200’ long and barely in the woods. That way it’ll be just long enough to be easily visible to anyone (including me). Many people highly respect this surveyor above all other mentioned around here, even other surveyors have respect for his past track record. That’s saying volumes about him!

I’m also only talking about a 12” tall fence. I know, puny, why bother? Well, it’s hard for some sob to claim ignorance but animals won’t think twice about it.